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"With your keen interest you'd be well served to do more formal study, because frankly, not that many folks on a general message board are going to be that deep into the subject."

This forum was a place to start. I thought that there might be a few engineers who are familiar with the subject and could answer my question.

Steel catalogs and web sites probably do research on what I am trying to find out, but I have never read anything in one of their catalogs about it, except for the remark I made about 440C and how it has been refined to make very sharp surgical instruments.

Look, I did not ask this question to get into a mud fight with Cranky, but it seems to be unavoidable, given his temperament. As far as being an idiot, any time he wants to compare IQs, I can do that.

Maybe we can let Mensa determine who would be the winner. I will submit my membership number, if he will submit his, if he has one.

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Originally Posted by 1234567
Maybe we can let Mensa determine who would be the winner. I will submit my membership number, if he will submit his, if he has one.

Don't bother. The fact that you guys are bickering over the schit that you are, on a forum for knife enthusiasts, would automatically disqualify either of you. No offense.


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my 145 does'nt qualify for mensa but i can extrapolate 123456 to be about 95. i already told that idiot to call engineering at cal poly tech. he probably thinks i'm talking about dog food.--cranky72

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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by 1234567
Maybe we can let Mensa determine who would be the winner. I will submit my membership number, if he will submit his, if he has one.

Don't bother. The fact that you guys are bickering over the schit that you are, on a forum for knife enthusiasts, would automatically disqualify either of you. No offense.


I agree. No offense taken.

If anyone is interested in knowing, I did find what I was originally asking about. It is one molecule, with a possibility of going on down to one atom thickness.

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There is no such thing as molecules in steel. Steel is a crystaline structure of iron atoms with differing amounts of alloying elements.

As journeyman stated, there are many other factors involved with making a sharp knife. I shave with a straight razor, it it is extremely sharp (12000 grit stone and stropped) and it cuts whiskers great. However it is almost completely useless in cutting other things because the edge is so thin it would be damaged. something a few atoms thick would be completely useless as a knife.

Last edited by pike3e; 11/13/12.
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When they were talking about one atom or one molecule thickness, I think they were talking about obsidian and broken glass. They were fine enough to cut between 2 cells, during surgery.

Yes, the edges would be thin and damage easily. The usefulness would come in for eye and other types of surgery where a cut, and not a tear, was necessary, to lesson bleeding and promote quick healing.

There was also mention of a titanium alloy, that could be given a very fine, but fragile edge, but there was no discussion about it.

I found the subject interesting, although no one else seems to. My primary interest was concerning steel, something a knifemaker would have some control over, if he was looking for a steel that would give the very sharpest blade.

About molecules--molecules are the smallest particles a substance can be broken down to, and still retain the original substance. Molecules only occur with two or more elements combine, as opposed to mixing.

With steel containing several elements, 5 or 6 at least, isn't it possible that two or more of these elements would or could combine, forming molecules?

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Science isn't your strong suit.

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1-7,

I collect knives. I also, know something about technical questions and answers. But in this case, I don't know the answer the way you want it.

I can offer the answer my grandfather had:

Hold the knife with blade up under a light so that it will reflect off the knife's edge. Look for this reflection - That's where the blade is dull. Sharpen the edge untill all reflection goes away. Try to slide the edge down across your thumb nail at about a 45 degree angle. When the edge is sharp enough, It will catch on your finger nail and stop sliding. Check all the points along the edge this way that you found dull and thus had sharpened.

Good luck finding the other answer you wanted.


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I want the answer in inches. The width, in inches where the two sides come together to form the cutting edge.

I have found some of the answer. Some razor blades measure .4 Microns at the apex where the two bevels come together. Now, I am trying to find out the size of 1 Micron in inches.

I understand what you are talking about. I have used the same methods to test for sharpness.

I am asking the technical questions because I am curious to know this measurement. For example how sharp is sharp?

I have read that obsidian is 100 times sharper that it is possible to get the sharpest steel blade. Makes me wonder how thick the obsidian is at it's cutting edge.




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"There is no such thing as molecules in steel. Steel is a crystaline structure of iron atoms with differing amounts of alloying elements."

Carbon will combine with many elements that go into the making of steel. So will the element iron. Cobalt is used in some high speed steels. Cobalt will combine with iron, nickel, and sulfur, of which all are elements that comprise different types of steel.

Nitrogen will combine with iron. Oxygen will combine with the elements in steel, causing Iron Oxide, aka rust. Rust has molecules.

So yes, steel is a compound and contains molecules.

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WOW, posts like this are why I dont argue on the internet, carry on.




Originally Posted by 1234567
"There is no such thing as molecules in steel. Steel is a crystaline structure of iron atoms with differing amounts of alloying elements."

Carbon will combine with many elements that go into the making of steel. So will the element iron. Cobalt is used in some high speed steels. Cobalt will combine with iron, nickel, and sulfur, of which all are elements that comprise different types of steel.

Nitrogen will combine with iron. Oxygen will combine with the elements in steel, causing Iron Oxide, aka rust. Rust has molecules.

So yes, steel is a compound and contains molecules.

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as long as it will cut baling twine, i don't care


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Originally Posted by pike3e
WOW, posts like this are why I dont argue on the internet, carry on.




Originally Posted by 1234567
"There is no such thing as molecules in steel. Steel is a crystaline structure of iron atoms with differing amounts of alloying elements."

Carbon will combine with many elements that go into the making of steel. So will the element iron. Cobalt is used in some high speed steels. Cobalt will combine with iron, nickel, and sulfur, of which all are elements that comprise different types of steel.

Nitrogen will combine with iron. Oxygen will combine with the elements in steel, causing Iron Oxide, aka rust. Rust has molecules.

So yes, steel is a compound and contains molecules.


Asking simple questions like this one, and the responses I got from some people just about broke me from asking questions on the internet.

I wanted to ask you some questions about Damascus, but I think that would be a waste of time, and would lead to more insults.

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obsidian is'nt the sharpest edge--the diamond knife is. diamond knives are used to cut extremely thin tissue samples since even smaller lasers burn the real thin sections that are needed for microscopic study. obsidian was given up in favor for eye surgery since lasers could cut better & thinner. as mentioned science is'nt your strong shirt. please 123456 discuss something you understand so other members may be able to contribute. we are'nt impressed with your shallow science knowledge.---cranky72

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Have you ever considered therapy?

I understand, and also understood completely. I asked a simple question and it took 4 pagers not to answer it. All I wanted was a simple measurement, if anyone knew what it was.

The question was like asking something like how thick is a 2X4 and you fill 4 pages with what you don't know.

My knowledge might be shallow, but you will never see me putting someone down, as you seem to excel at, to cover up for a lack of knowledge and to try to cover up for an excess of stupidity.

Only the backwards and the inbred do as you are doing. Stop trying to be something you are not, like knowledgeable about steel and knife making, and telling people where to find the answers to questions you do not understand.

Who is this 'we'? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

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Originally Posted by 1234567
how thick is a 2X4

1��


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I did not insult you and will not. I would be more than willing to answer questions about damascus, to the best of my knowledge. However I will not go round and round pointlessly.


Originally Posted by 1234567
Originally Posted by pike3e
WOW, posts like this are why I dont argue on the internet, carry on.




Originally Posted by 1234567
"There is no such thing as molecules in steel. Steel is a crystaline structure of iron atoms with differing amounts of alloying elements."

Carbon will combine with many elements that go into the making of steel. So will the element iron. Cobalt is used in some high speed steels. Cobalt will combine with iron, nickel, and sulfur, of which all are elements that comprise different types of steel.

Nitrogen will combine with iron. Oxygen will combine with the elements in steel, causing Iron Oxide, aka rust. Rust has molecules.

So yes, steel is a compound and contains molecules.


Asking simple questions like this one, and the responses I got from some people just about broke me from asking questions on the internet.

I wanted to ask you some questions about Damascus, but I think that would be a waste of time, and would lead to more insults.

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Originally Posted by 1234567
you will never see me putting someone down


Originally Posted by 1234567
Only the backwards and the inbred do as you are doing.



Your inference seems to be contradictory!

Last edited by mtnman1; 11/16/12.

Check out my new website

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123456 made knives light years away But does'nt understand his 1960 knowledge is caveman expertise at present. a while back he even said nitrogen guenched blades would shatter like glass if dropped. its obvious he does'nt understand newer alloys & heattrears, even buck is using nitrogen in many production models. i think its time he went back to school.--cranky72

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Crackey:

If you are going to say crap like this, at least tell the truth. I don't know where you got your information, but I never said a nitrogen quenched blade would shatter like glass. I know better than that. You should, too, being the expert you are.

As far as heat treating, and this is factual, and not an argument, although I am sure you will turn it around to mean just the opposite. Actually, I am not sure you will turn it around. You seem to have a knack of getting things backward regardless of how simple they are put.

But as for heat treating. Many years ago, I wanted to heat treat my own knives and I researched heat treating. I discovered that for high chrome, high carbon steels, such as 440C, ATS 34, 154CM, D2, and others, that if they were not protected by a neutral atmosphere, they would decarbonize.

For that reason, and the equipment needed to do it right, I decided to use a commercial heat treater. I felt home heat treating was beyond my abilities, and for these steels listed they could not be correctly heat treated by back yard methods. I still think that.

My choice was Paul Bos. If you consider him to be a caveman, then nothing I can say will ever make any sense to you.

I felt then, and I still do, that an incorrectly heat treated blade is worthless. The best and most expensive steel in the world will not make a suitable knife if the heat treating is done incorrectly.

I hope this clarifies things, but I have my doubts, knowing a little about your reasoning, or lack thereof, and your lack of plain common sense.

Those are the actual facts. If you try to make something else out of it, then you are a liar. But then, you know that, don't you?

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