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#7057708 - 11/08/12 09:22 PM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: battue]
dr_dog_guy Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 6
Loc: NM
If you use a collar, make absolutely certain you do collar condition him. There is no reason in the world for that to be an ugly process. Have someone help you that REALLY knows what they are doing - a pro would be my recommendation. Easy to ruin a great dog with a collar, but a well trained collar dog is beauty to behold. I use one all the time - one setter, six Goldens, two Labradors (one FC, one MH, two SH, and some darn good hunting dogs).

On the other hand, collar or not, your obedience is faulty at distance, which means it needs a lot more work at close range. A pheasant farm is a great place to work on this. Repetition, repetition, repetition is the key to dog training. Come to the whistle no matter what is what you need, and when you have it completely reliable at 10 yards, change to 15, then to 20 and 30, etc.

Even the best dogs, once in a while, if you do not train all the time, will get a wild hair and not respond. That's when a collar really works, but you never ever teach with a collar. You teach teach teach, then once the command is 100%, you reinforce with a collar.

My 2 cents
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Chuck

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CI16728
#7057749 - 11/08/12 10:10 PM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: dr_dog_guy]
splattermatic Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 6007
Loc: n.w. new mexico
Hi chuck,
How's the knees?

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#7058311 - 11/09/12 06:25 AM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: splattermatic]
dr_dog_guy Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 6
Loc: NM
We do get around, don't we? How are you doing?

Much better. The right is coming along so much more slowly than the left did that it is frustrating. Still can't drive. But I'm only 20 degrees away from a full bend, so I'm thinking I may still get a few pheasants this season after all. I know I'll get a duck or three!
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Chuck

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#7058365 - 11/09/12 06:45 AM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: dr_dog_guy]
splattermatic Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 6007
Loc: n.w. new mexico
Took j.j. the fed warden out yesterday, and we got 9.
The migration hasn't even started yet!

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#7061124 - 11/09/12 09:50 PM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: splattermatic]
dr_dog_guy Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 6
Loc: NM
Now that the cold front is hitting tomorrow, it should pick right up.
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#7066765 - 11/11/12 06:57 PM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: dr_dog_guy]
ScottM Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 318
Loc: Idaho
Again, thank you all for the comments.

I ordered tri tronics upland sport package a few weeks ago and it will be here tomorrow. After some thought and observations I will try working with the beeper only. Most times I can tell by his body language when he is going to assert too much independence. Maybe the beep will be enough to interrupt the thought.

Question: Am I going too fast. Do I need to be doing ground work with a check cord in a more controlled setting to reinforce obedience? I am letting him do his thing and he does it very well. Commands are not yet his thing although I want him to be a well behaved setter. Not simply a big running, bird finding machine.

Also, any suggestions on associations or clubs that a guy could become involved in to motivate yourself and seek help? I was thinking NSTRA or the like.

Thanks,

Scott
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The church is close, but the road is icey. The tavern is far, but I will walk carefully. -Russian Proverb

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#7067177 - 11/11/12 10:32 PM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: ScottM]
dr_dog_guy Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 6
Loc: NM
Tri-tronics has a good product. However, yes, you are going too fast if you use the collar to shock. Use it to reinforce, but never to teach. Personally, I would concentrate on obedience up close - yes to a controlled setting. You can't have an obedient dog at 100 yards if you don't have one at 15. A lot of people move to quickly, skipping the basics. (This is the voice of experience, by the way.)

NAVDA would be the organization I'd suggest. North American Versatile Dog Association. Their focus is on the versatile European breeds, but teaching control to a pointing dog is the same regardless. Dr. Ed Bailey is or was one of their gurus. He's an animal behaviorist in Canada, writes a column in Gun Dog magazine. He responds to email, too.

Hope this helps! Take you time, do the basics, go gently.

You can use the tone in an attempt do interrupt bad behavior without doing any harm, but if it fails you gain nothing and if it works it might not ever work again. Better to train the response you want.

Good luck!
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Chuck

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#7067750 - 11/12/12 07:43 AM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: dr_dog_guy]
toltecgriz Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 17271
Use the collar on yourself at various settings before you even think of using it on the pup.
It's never too soon to put the collar on , turned off, if you really believe he won't learn the difference anyway eventually.
More yard work for sure.
An e-collar is actually just an extension of your arm.
When you get a willful refusal to obey a command that he understands, it's time to turn the collar on.
Never hit the button when you are angry.
The beeper feature is most useful, in my opinion, as a substitute whistle. If you try to use it as an interrupter, you will most likely give up that option.
If the collar arrives tomorrow, you are still at least a couple of weeks from turning it on. Do more self-education on it in the mean time.
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"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett

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#7069863 - 11/12/12 06:40 PM Re: Young dog questions. [Re: ScottM]
RupertBear Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 309
Loc: British Columbia
Originally Posted By: ScottM
This dog we've been working with is quite the hunter already. He is almost five months old and I am so pleased with how far he has progressed.

...
My questions are how would you guys approach the remainder of the season? My gut tells me to keep it simple and fun with no pressure.


You've got the fine dog there, and you can wreck it easily. If the birds are too plentiful, any dog will go crazy. Don't worry about it.

Finish out the season as you've been doing and over the closed months work on "come." I know that a lot of folk like e-collars, but patience and consistency worked (and still works).

Get two whistles, one with a pea and one without. Your dog's hearing is more than sensitive enough to tell the difference. One whistle is just an attention getter; "Hey, dog, there's a command coming." The other is for "come," and that's the important one.

When you blow the come whistle, the dog should come. Period. There are many reasons for it, but an example is skunks. The dog is concentrating on finding birds but you look past the dog and see a skunk or porcupine. You should be able to blow the come whistle and get him back before you have a problem.

Blow the whistle and if the dog doesn't come, mark the spot where you stand and go to the dog. Don't blow the whistle again, just go to the dog. Drag the dog (make it a bit unpleasant, but not severely) and blow the whistle repeatedly while sternly saying "come" all the way back to your original spot. Yank the dog up by the collar and slam him down on his butt and say "Good come." Don't use his name because he hasn't been good. What you are doing is reinforcing the 'come' command. A couple of episodes and the dog realizes that he can come back the easy way or the hard way. Be aware that you'll come to some sort of compromise with the dog. You'll blow the whistle and the dog will look at you. You'll take a couple of steps forward and he'll race to you knowing that you won't punish him for coming. It won't take too long until the two of you come to an agreement that 'come' means come.

The next step is to blow the come whistle when the dog gets too far out. He'll learn pretty quickly what the limits are. He'll race out to the boundary and pause knowing that you'll not be wanting him to go farther. It is all part and parcel of making the dog remain aware of where you are.

Hope this helps,
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#7070294 - 11/12/12 08:35 PM Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: ScottM]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13648
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Looks to me like both "pups" are being brought along just right. wink
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