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#7061124 - 11/10/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: splattermatic]
dr_dog_guy Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 6
Loc: NM
Now that the cold front is hitting tomorrow, it should pick right up.
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Chuck

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#7066765 - 11/12/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: dr_dog_guy]
ScottM Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 325
Loc: Idaho
Again, thank you all for the comments.

I ordered tri tronics upland sport package a few weeks ago and it will be here tomorrow. After some thought and observations I will try working with the beeper only. Most times I can tell by his body language when he is going to assert too much independence. Maybe the beep will be enough to interrupt the thought.

Question: Am I going too fast. Do I need to be doing ground work with a check cord in a more controlled setting to reinforce obedience? I am letting him do his thing and he does it very well. Commands are not yet his thing although I want him to be a well behaved setter. Not simply a big running, bird finding machine.

Also, any suggestions on associations or clubs that a guy could become involved in to motivate yourself and seek help? I was thinking NSTRA or the like.

Thanks,

Scott
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The church is close, but the road is icey. The tavern is far, but I will walk carefully. -Russian Proverb

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#7067177 - 11/12/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: ScottM]
dr_dog_guy Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 6
Loc: NM
Tri-tronics has a good product. However, yes, you are going too fast if you use the collar to shock. Use it to reinforce, but never to teach. Personally, I would concentrate on obedience up close - yes to a controlled setting. You can't have an obedient dog at 100 yards if you don't have one at 15. A lot of people move to quickly, skipping the basics. (This is the voice of experience, by the way.)

NAVDA would be the organization I'd suggest. North American Versatile Dog Association. Their focus is on the versatile European breeds, but teaching control to a pointing dog is the same regardless. Dr. Ed Bailey is or was one of their gurus. He's an animal behaviorist in Canada, writes a column in Gun Dog magazine. He responds to email, too.

Hope this helps! Take you time, do the basics, go gently.

You can use the tone in an attempt do interrupt bad behavior without doing any harm, but if it fails you gain nothing and if it works it might not ever work again. Better to train the response you want.

Good luck!
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Chuck

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#7067750 - 11/12/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: dr_dog_guy]
toltecgriz Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 17570
Use the collar on yourself at various settings before you even think of using it on the pup.
It's never too soon to put the collar on , turned off, if you really believe he won't learn the difference anyway eventually.
More yard work for sure.
An e-collar is actually just an extension of your arm.
When you get a willful refusal to obey a command that he understands, it's time to turn the collar on.
Never hit the button when you are angry.
The beeper feature is most useful, in my opinion, as a substitute whistle. If you try to use it as an interrupter, you will most likely give up that option.
If the collar arrives tomorrow, you are still at least a couple of weeks from turning it on. Do more self-education on it in the mean time.
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"Be sure you're right. Then go ahead." Fess Parker as Davy Crockett

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#7069863 - 11/13/12 Re: Young dog questions. [Re: ScottM]
RupertBear Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 313
Loc: British Columbia
Originally Posted By: ScottM
This dog we've been working with is quite the hunter already. He is almost five months old and I am so pleased with how far he has progressed.

...
My questions are how would you guys approach the remainder of the season? My gut tells me to keep it simple and fun with no pressure.


You've got the fine dog there, and you can wreck it easily. If the birds are too plentiful, any dog will go crazy. Don't worry about it.

Finish out the season as you've been doing and over the closed months work on "come." I know that a lot of folk like e-collars, but patience and consistency worked (and still works).

Get two whistles, one with a pea and one without. Your dog's hearing is more than sensitive enough to tell the difference. One whistle is just an attention getter; "Hey, dog, there's a command coming." The other is for "come," and that's the important one.

When you blow the come whistle, the dog should come. Period. There are many reasons for it, but an example is skunks. The dog is concentrating on finding birds but you look past the dog and see a skunk or porcupine. You should be able to blow the come whistle and get him back before you have a problem.

Blow the whistle and if the dog doesn't come, mark the spot where you stand and go to the dog. Don't blow the whistle again, just go to the dog. Drag the dog (make it a bit unpleasant, but not severely) and blow the whistle repeatedly while sternly saying "come" all the way back to your original spot. Yank the dog up by the collar and slam him down on his butt and say "Good come." Don't use his name because he hasn't been good. What you are doing is reinforcing the 'come' command. A couple of episodes and the dog realizes that he can come back the easy way or the hard way. Be aware that you'll come to some sort of compromise with the dog. You'll blow the whistle and the dog will look at you. You'll take a couple of steps forward and he'll race to you knowing that you won't punish him for coming. It won't take too long until the two of you come to an agreement that 'come' means come.

The next step is to blow the come whistle when the dog gets too far out. He'll learn pretty quickly what the limits are. He'll race out to the boundary and pause knowing that you'll not be wanting him to go farther. It is all part and parcel of making the dog remain aware of where you are.

Hope this helps,
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#7070294 - 11/13/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: ScottM]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 15119
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Looks to me like both "pups" are being brought along just right. wink
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#7083097 - 11/17/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: luv2safari]
Magnum_Man Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2947
You are getting some good advice from guys that know. I tell you something I really believe in with pups. You and the pup the birds only. leave all the others behind or out of the picture period. Until your pup is trained as you want him to be. NO others. No distractions and or party hunts period. Hey you asked. Magnum man

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#7107061 - 11/24/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: Magnum_Man]
gunscrew Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/12
Posts: 87
sounds like you have a great pup, just give him time and birds, don't give any commands you can't back up but be sure he knows what the command means, the e-collar is a great tool like a long leash but not a substitute for for work, never use it in association with birds while he is young , unless he starts breaking point or when he is older and if you want him to hold to wing and or shot, but you must be extremely careful or he will start dodging birds, you have to use e-collar according to dogs temperment a little goes a long way, but he must come when you call him, and stop when you command him, could save his life and make your life happier.Good luck ( my setters name is Jake also)

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#7107225 - 11/24/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: gunscrew]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 15119
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
What gunscrew said! wink Be very careful using the e-collar; you can very easily make a blinker out of what would have been a great dog. Setters are a sensitive breed, so use a soft hand and patience, and remember they take 1 1/2 - 2 years to get over the goofies completely. crazy
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#7115585 - 11/27/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: luv2safari]
ScottM Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 325
Loc: Idaho
Update on this pup.

I've decided to keep the collar in it's box until next year. Just letting him progress at whatever speed he wants. Everyone I've hunted with is impressed by his desire and ability. Taking that into consideration I think I'll count myself lucky and see what happens.

I've taken to carrying hot dog pieces and a whistle with me, appealing to his stomach to remind him I'm following him. Most times it's not needed but when his switch flips maybe that will sway him.

Do you guys call your dog in with "come", or simply command a general "check in"?

Enjoying both the pup and the boy. Next week....chukar!
_________________________
The church is close, but the road is icey. The tavern is far, but I will walk carefully. -Russian Proverb

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#7116137 - 11/27/12 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: ScottM]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 15119
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
"come", and you're taking the right road. Enjoy the unique experience that is a setter. wink

I use Come when I am calling them in closer and Here when I want them right next to me...then Heel. There is no set rule. This is the way my late dad did it, and it still works. laugh

To release them I use "find-a-bird" and a light touch on the head. Remember to make sure all commands sound different. Any word works. I had a friend who used a bunch I can't post here...some vulgar, and some racial. grin
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#7265657 - 01/04/13 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: luv2safari]
ScottM Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 325
Loc: Idaho
Almost lost the pup this weekend. Luckily the fresh falling snow allowed for some good tracking. Sometimes this dog really worries me with his unbridled enthusiasm. Once he's in the mode, he's as good as gone. Never seen anything like it. But when he's on his "A" game I've never seen a pup as good either.

For the rest of the season we will be chasing devil birds in earnest. We'll see how it goes.
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The church is close, but the road is icey. The tavern is far, but I will walk carefully. -Russian Proverb

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#7265712 - 01/04/13 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: ScottM]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 15119
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
You might need to bite the bullet and get him a GPS tracker.

If you keep the party hunts to a minimum, and You shoot birds over him a lot, he'll soon learn to hunt to your gun and not run off.


Edited by luv2safari (01/04/13)
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Hunt with Class and Classics

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#7367763 - 01/27/13 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: luv2safari]
socko1 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/13
Posts: 81
Loc: Leatherstocking area NY
It sounds like you've gotten some great advise already. I know where you're comin from. I got an English 2 yrs ago and could not believe the wild hair he'd get on occasion. Just flat out gone! See ya, goodbye. Everyone who knew the setters told me patience and time. Believe me, I blew my stack a few times.They were right, he's come around. BTW I tried the e collar and another post hit it right, when he was gonna go, he was gone. It didnt matter how many or how strong the "zap" was. Patience and time. Good luck.

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#7367918 - 01/27/13 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: socko1]
wildhunter Offline
Member

Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 222
Loc: Newfoundland Canada
Love those setters!
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If it doesn't have fin, fur, feathers or go bang, I just ain't interested.

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#7367962 - 01/27/13 Re: A boy and a setter......... [Re: wildhunter]
whitedogone Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 909
I let my dogs cover ground! That being said, I will never let one out of the box without a GPS on it anymore. Once you hunt with one on a dog you'll never go back either. It makes hunts SO MUCH more stress free. I know it's a lot of cash, but if you loose that pup just think about how heartbreaking it would be. Start using the training collar to reinforce things when you aren't in the field. Just start on low. You'll find with most setters it doesn't take much. Sorry, gota post setter pics.

My first Setter Grace at 13yo

Grace and Willow 13yo and 9months


Willow at 1 1/2 years


Willow died of kiddney failure at 4yo


Classy


Current model....Maggie at 2yo


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"Any one who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him, better take a closer look at the American Indian."
- Henry Ford

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