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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I struggle with the concept of a 1-8 twisted 30 cal.


The Noveske barrel on my rig is actually 1:7"...

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There always can surface a bit of what is ignorance of what can and does work. Ignorance is not meant in a derogative term, simply the truth.

I"ve run 52 grain BTHP in 223 in a 6.5 twist with no issues around 3350 fps.... Most would think that would torch the bullet instantly... does just fine and plenty accurate thank you.


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how many benchrest guns are twisted that fast Jeff? I think Bill Wilson and Savage are right on this one.


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Who needs a bench gun when they can shoot a highpower rifle?

Point is, you don't know what you are talking about on this one. You don't twist for a caliber... you twist for the bullet and velocity you are chasing...


And I'm not flaming ya either, its pretty much exactly what the benchresters do. You match the bullet length mostly, to the MV, to get your twist. They don't over stabilize at all because they shoot very short range shots, others like us tend to overdo it a hair because where BR stops mostly is whwere we start mostly and head on towards 1000 yards there so stability is key.

Where an 8 twist 30 cal might be ignorant in a 300 wtby driving 150 grain bullets( some folks believe in light bullets for some reason) the same twist isn't with a slow 240 grain 30 cal. And vice versa the slow twist for trhe 300 wtby, would leave the 240 slow 30 cal almost tumbling as it left the barrel.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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so exactly what you just said pardner. You twist for bullet and velocity...and they have put a 1-8 twist in a gun that runs both supersonic bullets and 220 grain subsonic bullets and call it good.


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I believe I let the shot go too high on the doe I lost, shot with the .300 and 220 Matchkings. Not a bad shot - a bang flop with a .270 IME, but it sure didn't work in that case. Realize if sighted for 100 yards, the bullet - even one as streamlined as a MK, will have enough trajectory to be 4" high at 50 yards, and the shot was at about 60 yards. If I try it again, I need to be exacting on placement, in the heart or just over it. I dunno, maybe the Berger would be a better choice too, even though neither bullet is designed for game at those velocities.

I still like the gun/cartridge, but I may go for a Noveske 1:7 stainless barrel, just to get a little more twisty. Maybe I'll even give 240's a try at subsonic speed.

The other comment I would make, though, is I read the .300 is the equal of the 7.62x39. I'll say, not exactly - since the Rooskie round will drive 123's as fast as the .300 will run 110's. Neither of them equal to a .30-30, which even in a lever action will drive 160's to the high 2300's - and even higher in a strong action.

I kinda like the idea of the 7.62x40, but have seen no barrels suitible for subsonic heavy bullets.

Last edited by tex_n_cal; 11/14/12. Reason: grammher :(

"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

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I will concede I know nothing about nothing, on the other hand I also stubbornly believe a Jack of all trades is a master of none.

rsilvers will drive by soon to set me straight!

If someone could point to a single thing other than subsonic it would do head and shoulders better I would go out and spend $900 on an AAC upper!

Last edited by jimmyp; 11/14/12.

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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I struggle with the concept of a 1-8 twisted 30 cal.


The latest research is that 1:8 twist is a good thing even for 308 - because it helps the bullet expand by the rotational force, and improves terminal effects. Also, there is some evidence that it helps the bullet survive the transonic boundary and increases the ability to shoot much longer range.

So I would use 1:8 or 1:7 even for full power 308.

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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
The other comment I would make, though, is I read the .300 is the equal of the 7.62x39. I'll say, not exactly - since the Rooskie round will drive 123's as fast as the .300 will run 110's.


300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm at 300 meters. There is not a single 7.62x39mm factory load which is more powerful than 300 BLK past 120 yards. I have posted much proof of this before, along with photos, but it is a pain to re-locate this stuff that I have said in the past each time it comes up.

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well...

644 ft-lbs at 300 yards:

http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-ZMAX-Steel-Case/

and their .300 whisper load, 622 ft-lb at 300 yards:

http://www.hornady.com/store/300-Whisper-110gr-vmax/

But I'll agree it's a lot easier to find good .308 bullets than .310-.312. And the cartridge itself is a better for the AR platform. That's what I'm keeping for a house gun, and I do like the cartridge.

But the 7.62x39 is a bigger case, although held to lower pressures. I wouldn't try it in an AK or even an AR, but a strong action could be warmed up even further.



"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

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x39 in my nephews AR upper has run fine at warmer pressures FWIW.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
I will concede I know nothing about nothing, on the other hand I also stubbornly believe a Jack of all trades is a master of none.

rsilvers will drive by soon to set me straight!

If someone could point to a single thing other than subsonic it would do head and shoulders better I would go out and spend $900 on an AAC upper!


RE 8 being a compromise twist, is simply that you stabilize the slowest longest and that most of the ones that need less, won't suffer any more. IE the 6 and 6.5 twists in 224 for my 223 ARs. I"d have NEVER dreamed that 52s would shoot in a barrel and chamber that we designed specifically for 90 jlks at the time.

My BR buddy that changed over to highpower kept saying it might not be a compromise gun. But danged if it wasn't. Worked just fine. And amazed me.e

He still errs to the side that says slow twist and is the one that convinced me that a twist in 223 can stabilize 80s without any issues.

Yet, what good is a 240 or whatever out of the ACC if its not stable and accurate? So yes some folks do compromises. I don't on purpose, IE I'm going to head for a barrel that will take subsonic big bullets, because thats how its going to be used. If it works with 115s supersonic thats a plus.

In this all we never need to forget that the standard 223, as you've said so well, especially IMHO, with TSX bullets, kills damn near anything with ease that its pointed at in the deer/hog world.
Personally given that I hold to certain parameters, I would not be afraid to take on an elk with it either.
We did watch a good friends wife that shot lots of matches with us, ding a 250ish pound white tail buck that almost made book 2 years ago, 223 and 69 SMK.... one shot in the lungs and he took a few steps, looked around and fell over.

As noted nothing flaming or personal but each situation can be different, and while many subscribe to whatever the writers write about, I do all my research myself and set my guns up according to their intended task. Be it a slow twist poof varmint gun for mid range shots or a fast twist for whatever that happens to be applicable to.

Hope that makes sense. And of course you know by now I hate buying a built AR package as most of the crap I don't want, but some things I specifically want and most don't utilize them the way we do.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal


That states a 20 inch barrel - standard for 7.62x39mm. 300 BLK velocities are always given for 16 inch barrels.

There is no 7.62x39mm factory load which has more energy than 300 BLK past 120 yards. I am not guessing - I checked. And 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy at 300 meters.

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BUT IIRC this link is not comparing reloads to reloads, the AR can handle higher pressures than what most X39 is loaded to by factories IIRC.
Regardless to me the 2 are extremely similar to each other in the end.


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Larger case with equal bullets will always yield more energy and velocity. You can't hype your way out of that.

It is what it is, it can't be anymore.

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Yeah, it is, but the x39 IMHO just doesn't have enough more on it, to make a real difference in the end for most applications.

I shy away due to the magazine fact, though my nephew has a few that work flawlessly.

I'd rather take it based off the 223 since I have probably close to 100K cases that I could play with also.

I also consider my 6 woa to be a 243 light so to speak, I've done everything with it that I've ever done with a regular 243 and they are more apart than the x39 vs the AAC. X39 with a 308 bore really doesnt' have that many flaws.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Not much difference in case capacity on a 223 vs a 223 AI either but 2.5 grs is 10% and shows up on the chronograph. The 7.62x39 mag issue was solved, I'll send you a pm.

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I don't own an AI 223 and have never seen the need.

Of course I dont' shoot my 300 mags as much as I used to either, since I had a good 308 built....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I would have to go x39 over BO RRA makes a good lower don't they for the X39 and AK mags?


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How about reloads rsilvers?


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