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#7096781 - 11/21/12 06:46 AM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: Savuti]
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Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 2771
Loc: Near Hobble Creek Canyon, Utah
I carry reloads. I shoot Gold Dots; 45 acp in my Ed Brown Special Forces and 38/357 Mag in my BUG S&W 340CT. I first buy a box of the factory stuff for each cartridge and chrono it. I then find a powder like Solo 1000 that gives me the accuracy I demand as well as zero to nil muzzle flash. I then load it to the same velocity as the factory stuff. It's easy to prove my loads run the same velocity as the factory stuff.

Alan
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#7096789 - 11/21/12 06:48 AM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: Savuti]
derby_dude Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/21/06
Posts: 33262
Loc: Montana, Lewis and Clark Count...
I would use factory loads for SD because factory loads can be tested against a standard and certified. Hand loads can not be tested against a standard and cannot be certified.Pick your poison.
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"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous

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#7096933 - 11/21/12 07:40 AM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: Savuti]
RufusG Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 5023
Loc: In the weeds, AZ
Originally Posted By: Savuti
guys are currently doing hard time because they weren't using factory ammo. One of them involved shooting the defendant's wife, he said suicide, prosecutor said murder.


I'm curious as to what jurisdiction it's okay to shoot your wife, as long as you use factory ammo?

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#7097177 - 11/21/12 08:56 AM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: RufusG]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 34741
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: RufusG
Originally Posted By: Savuti
guys are currently doing hard time because they weren't using factory ammo. One of them involved shooting the defendant's wife, he said suicide, prosecutor said murder.


I'm curious as to what jurisdiction it's okay to shoot your wife, as long as you use factory ammo?


Was thinking the same thing... using different ammo won't change the charges... sounds pretty stupid to me.

Now what if you have tritium sights. Especially aftermarket? Sounds like you are looking for a fight at night.
What about the folks that don't use out of the crate guns? Modify them? Or heaven forbid a custom gun DESIGNED to protect you and kill others? Or worse yet one you smithed yourself?

And then heaven forbid if you touched the factory sight setting to zero the gun?

Non standard holster? Crap my wife will be in deep as she carries in a shoulder bag that we sewed a holster into...

Or if I'm wearing handmade clothing from Mom or such when I have to protect myself....

Whatever... you are either right or wrong. its the Indian and not the arrow as always.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7097571 - 11/21/12 11:22 AM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: RufusG]
guyandarifle Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 922
Originally Posted By: RufusG
Originally Posted By: Savuti
guys are currently doing hard time because they weren't using factory ammo. One of them involved shooting the defendant's wife, he said suicide, prosecutor said murder.


I'm curious as to what jurisdiction it's okay to shoot your wife, as long as you use factory ammo?


It was an enormous clusterhump of a case. To cut it short the problematic part was what DD alluded to a few posts up. The rounds were super-soft handloads intended for his wife to shoot with almost no recoil. The result however was a load that left practically no GSR on the "victim" at a range that, the prosecution's argument went, should have had at least some GSR. The court ruled that handloads weren't admissable since it's essentially impossible to provide a testable/repeatable exemplar. You don't KNOW what THAT cartridge did until you fired it, basically destroying the evidence. Sure, you can testify that it's POSSIBLE to create a load that left the GSR signature in question but there's no way verify that the one used in the actual shooting was the same. (don't try to argue it, that's what the case said)

I don't particularly like this case since any SD ammo I can imagine anyone here would load would be roughly a factory analogue so the above wouldn't have happened with anything I, for instance, would have loaded in a SD weapon. Still, there IS the issue of factory ammo providing a vetted exemplar for forensic testing that is on MUCH firmer ground than anything a court is likely to accept from handloads.

I'm sticking with my "death by meteorite" position. You would have to be one SERIOUSLY unlucky bastage to have things turn out where the fact you were using handloads mattered...but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
_________________________
If there's one thing I've become certain of it's that there's too much certainty in the world.

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#7097580 - 11/21/12 11:24 AM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: rost495]
Savuti Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 1476
Loc: Collier Co. Florida
Don't recall all the details, but if you really were interested in the subject I'd suggest contacting Ayoob. He doesn't bite.

GAAR and I overlapped. Thanks for the post.

Pete


Edited by Savuti (11/21/12 11:36 AM)
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There is nothing made by man,
which cannot be broken by woman.

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#7098054 - 11/21/12 02:24 PM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: Savuti]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 34741
Loc: La Grange, TX
anything is possible, just saying that in the scheme of things worrying about your ammo, other than it being totally reliable, is about the last thing I'd worry about.

You can get sued for damn near anything.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7098131 - 11/21/12 02:46 PM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: rost495]
Rancho_Loco Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 17810
Loc: MONTANA
#1 - Biggest myth on the internet since e-mails saying microsoft will give you money for using their e-mail.

#2 - If you can't rely on your reloads, under any conditions, you should take up knitting.
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Originally Posted By: derby_dude
A rifle using standard velocity ammo with a suppressor tend to be louder than without the suppressor.

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#7098184 - 11/21/12 03:04 PM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: rost495]
guyandarifle Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 922
Originally Posted By: rost495
anything is possible, just saying that in the scheme of things worrying about your ammo, other than it being totally reliable, is about the last thing I'd worry about.

You can get sued for damn near anything.


IMHO it's the extremes on both sides that are overwrought. Anyone that claims there are NO actual risks involved in carrying handloads hasn't boned up on the legalities. What some other the other side posit would have you think that it's better to just leave your weapon at home than risk carrying handloads.

There IS a risk and there are actual cases that set this forth.

BUT

You are almost as likely to be driving by a river and be the only person there to pull the Victoria's Secret models to safety after their bus crashed, thereby earning their profound sexual gratitude, than having handloads (or caliber, or trigger, etc) be an issue in a shooting. (unless you really did screw up and then they really will throw anything and everything at you)
_________________________
If there's one thing I've become certain of it's that there's too much certainty in the world.

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#7098210 - 11/21/12 03:15 PM Re: hand loading defence ammo [Re: guyandarifle]
ldholton Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 3061
Loc: lawrence county MO
Originally Posted By: guyandarifle
Originally Posted By: RufusG
Originally Posted By: Savuti
guys are currently doing hard time because they weren't using factory ammo. One of them involved shooting the defendant's wife, he said suicide, prosecutor said murder.


I'm curious as to what jurisdiction it's okay to shoot your wife, as long as you use factory ammo?


It was an enormous clusterhump of a case. To cut it short the problematic part was what DD alluded to a few posts up. The rounds were super-soft handloads intended for his wife to shoot with almost no recoil. The result however was a load that left practically no GSR on the "victim" at a range that, the prosecution's argument went, should have had at least some GSR. The court ruled that handloads weren't admissable since it's essentially impossible to provide a testable/repeatable exemplar. You don't KNOW what THAT cartridge did until you fired it, basically destroying the evidence. Sure, you can testify that it's POSSIBLE to create a load that left the GSR signature in question but there's no way verify that the one used in the actual shooting was the same. (don't try to argue it, that's what the case said)

I don't particularly like this case since any SD ammo I can imagine anyone here would load would be roughly a factory analogue so the above wouldn't have happened with anything I, for instance, would have loaded in a SD weapon. Still, there IS the issue of factory ammo providing a vetted exemplar for forensic testing that is on MUCH firmer ground than anything a court is likely to accept from handloads.

I'm sticking with my "death by meteorite" position. You would have to be one SERIOUSLY unlucky bastage to have things turn out where the fact you were using handloads mattered...but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
ok let ask a different way if the round fired in this case had been a factory , would the defendent have walked ?


Edited by ldholton (11/22/12 05:43 AM)

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