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#7160822 - 12/09/12 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: JSTUART]
Pugs Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 12736
Loc: Maryland :(
I posted this in the campfire section a bit ago but this thread seems like a good place for it

http://www.bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900

It's amazing the amount of bombs that fell on London during the blitz and that any of the original city survives today. You can use the pull-down to view different weeks or even enter an address.

On the issue of Britain's loan from the US, the money that was paid back in 06 was postwar money. I didn't know much about it and learned some interesting stuff in these two articles. Largely the loan could have been paid back but made business sense to string it out to 06. Note that significant sums were paid back to Canada as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6215847.stm

Love getting over there for work and pleasure and hope to share a pint or dram sometime with a member or two from the campfire. We are truly two nations that have much more in common than we do differences.

There is no doubt that Britain and it's Commonwealth partners own the victory in the BoB and US had minimal input (despite Hollywierd trying to day otherwise). What happened afterward though would have been very different if the US had not weighed in and started the Lend Lease and thus began the war on the U-Boats. If that had not happened I suspect that Britain would have died a slow death by supply strangulation and then who knows what would have happened.

On the original topic, there is far more misinformation in this thread than truth and it heartens me to see that tin foil sales in the UK will remain as strong as they do in the US. grin

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#7166498 - 12/10/12 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: JSTUART]
tangozulu Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 930
Loc: BC/Yukon
And lots of Poles.
Originally Posted By: JSTUART
Originally Posted By: tangozulu
It always amazes me when it needs to be restated that the Battle for Britain was won by the British and her allies long before the US entered the war. Thanks to you all who stood up to Hitler. It was only with the help of the US and others that the fight was finally taken to the Germans and only after Germany declared war on the US at the end of 41. Your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
The Brits need not thank anyone for saving their asses from anyone. The world owes her a debt for standing alone at such a dark hr. saving a free foothold to launch D-Day in 44.


Britain did not stand alone....the rest of the commonwealth were there as well.

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#7704181 - 05/02/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: paul375]
Outcast Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 3214
Loc: Hongry Gulch, WV
Paul...,

Not sure where your data came from , but for sure some of it is dated.
The Teufelsburg site was in the British Sector of Berlin. It was technically an RAF
Operation. Yes, there were Americans working there.

It is my understanding shortly after the wall came down the German government requested that facility to be closed and it was. In fact, an episode of the TV series Covert Affairs was filmed at the Teufelsburg site. It appeared to be in ruins an was referred to in the program as " a relic of Cold War paranoia"

O
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#7704695 - 05/02/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: Outcast]
kutenay Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 7739
God, I get SO phucking TIRED of the never-ending BS about who "won" WWII and the claims by some.

The British, Canadian and Australian/New Zealand nations decided to declare war on Nazi Germany because of Hitler's "Lebensraum" which violated an old treaty that England had signed with Poland almost a century prior to the outset of the war in Europe.

We were outnumbered, outgunned and not prepared, although the signs of the on-coming struggle were only TOO obvious for years prior to 1939. My maternal grandfather, a Canadian officer with the 21st.Batt. C.E.F., wounded at Courcelette, the final battle of the slaughter known as "The Somme" (420,00 Empire soldiers fell) and, very badly, at the epitome of battle horrors, a place called "Passchendaele", (440.000 fell) openly told my then teenaged mother circa his early death in 1938, due to his wounds, that the war was coming and he intended to volunteer,again and expected that men like him would form the nucleus of the senior field commanders. i.e. Colonels and Brigadiers.

Yet, the Empire/Commonwealth governments did NOT prepare and the US did not either, much like Canada in the past 40+ years due to the curse of "multicultural" and "liberal" governments. Soooo, when it started, we were in an unenviable position as my late father and uncles, ALL volunteers for "active overseas service" as THEIR fathers, etc, had done in 1914, often told me.

The Poles, while making a contribution, would NOT have been able to do so ahd not WE given them the war materiels, training and shelter in the UK they needed to participate. They did fairly well, in Normandy, against the ferocious "SS-Hitler Jugend", but, were losing until Canadians arrived, killed many of the Krauts and joined forces to win that engagement.

So, while the various minor participants helped, the reality of the situation is that WWII, was "won" by Brits, Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis and Yanks....and, while we were winning the "Battle of the Atlantic", the entry of the USA WAS the factor that largely decided the final outcome, as we of the Commonwealth did not have the manpower to successfully invade continental Yurp...and, the Krauts were superb, formidable soldiers, so, who knows?

I think that the Brits and the Krauts would have HAD to eventually come to some terms to end the slaughter, had the USA not entered the fray and THAT would have been a rather ugly situation. As it was, we should have attacked the Russkies at the surrender by Jodl and kept on going to the Pacific.

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#7704724 - 05/02/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: kutenay]
travelingman1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/17/01
Posts: 3306
Loc: Huntsville, Alabama
Funny, the only mention of Russia, is what should have been done after Germany's surrender. Wonder what would have happened to England if all the planes, tanks, soldiers, etc.. that were tied up by the Eastern Front had been available to fight them? The Russian front literally absorbed German armies and left them fighting the rest of us with one hand tied behind their back. JMHO
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#7704797 - 05/02/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: travelingman1]
kutenay Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 7739
WE were giving the Russkies Spitfires, guns, ammo, etc, etc, BEFORE the US entry and right after Hitler invaded Russia, although the commies HAD BEEN our enemies when allied with the Nazis.

The major problem in the Nazi invasion of Russia, was NOT the fighting ability of the Russians, it was the lack of proper preparation by the Nazis, as Hitler would NOT listen to his generals and the Russian winter and being ordered to perform maneuvers that were suicidal in military terms by AH was the final straw.

The FACT is that WE stood, ALONE, against BOTH of these monsters for over two years, with AH and a year with both Stalin and AH and THAT set the tone of the war. We NEVER backed down, WE took our losses, 47.000 Canadian combat dead, alone, from a nation of 11.5 million and NOBODY managed to beat or intimidate us, even in the worst days of "The Blitz" or "The Battle of the Atlantic" ( in which two of my uncles served on Canadian warships, one badly injured).

Phuque the Russkies, they would have been exterminated were it not for us!

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#7707456 - 05/03/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: tangozulu]
blairvt Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 1284
Loc: Charlotte, NC
tangozulu, that sure is some interesting history your family has. Do you know any mnore about your family in the war?

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#7732929 - 05/13/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: Hamburg81]
southwind Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 1128
Loc: Kansas
The king has to know what is happening in his kingdom

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#7806711 - 06/10/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: southwind]
gmsemel Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 5652
Loc: East Haddam, CT
All I have to say is Herbert O.Yardley about 90 years ago - this is not
New! As I recall Britain is very good at reading other people's mail !
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#8038840 - 09/04/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: JSTUART]
las Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 06/26/01
Posts: 13486
Loc: Kotzebue, AK
Originally Posted By: JSTUART
Originally Posted By: tangozulu
It always amazes me when it needs to be restated that the Battle for Britain was won by the British and her allies long before the US entered the war. Thanks to you all who stood up to Hitler. It was only with the help of the US and others that the fight was finally taken to the Germans and only after Germany declared war on the US at the end of 41. Your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
The Brits need not thank anyone for saving their asses from anyone. The world owes her a debt for standing alone at such a dark hr. saving a free foothold to launch D-Day in 44.


Britain did not stand alone....the rest of the commonwealth were there as well.


Along with a number of American aviators, who transfered back into a
American command once we formally entered the war.

Still....those British. Damn!
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#8038879 - 09/04/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: las]
Pete E Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 12297
Loc: North Wales, UK
At the beginning of the war, there were very few Americans who flew for the RAF, and I think there are only something like 6 who flew in the BB.

As I understand it, the problem was a legal one in that on signing up with the RAF, Americans would be required to swearh an oath of allegience to the UK/Queen and this would/could have jeoperdised their American citezenship. Later in the war, both American and British governments found ways around this issue, and eventually quite a few Americans served.

As with the other pilots of all the other nations that served and helped us in our darkest hour, their contribution and sacrifice is greatly appreciated.


Edited by Pete E (09/04/13)
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#8039404 - 09/04/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: Pete E]
BWalker Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 6708
Loc: Negaunee, MI
It should be pointed out it is very likely Moscow would have fell had the Brits not had the Germans tied up in North Africa and the Greek army stopping the Italian invasion of Greece. This pushed back the launch of Barbarossa by several weeks and we all know what played out after that.


Edited by BWalker (09/04/13)
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#8040337 - 09/04/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: 17ACKLEYBEE]
Just a Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 2932
Loc: MT
Originally Posted By: 17ACKLEYBEE

If they aren't doing anything what do they have to hide?


This is one of the most idiotic statements ever. Right up there with, "Let them look. I have nothing to hide." The slippery slope to losing your freedom forever.

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#8108082 - 09/27/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: Just a Hunter]
rustyzipper Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/07/02
Posts: 506
Loc: U.S.
And some of you still use "services" like facebook and twitter?
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#8239535 - 11/10/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: rustyzipper]
MajSteve Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 14
Loc: Missouri
Back to the original issue. I do find this offensive, and this coming from a retired intelligence officer of 22 years...I understand the "game" and it is a game at the macro level. I cant speak to specifics as far as intelligence programs but I can speak from my personal experience in Afghanistan.

In 2002 I was the intelligence chief for a coalition special operations task force and a liaison with the German DSO (their special ops directorate). This was before the NATO task force and these countries were voluntarily fighting alongside US troops. I spent many hours working with and socialising with my German and other allied camrades. I would have found it very difficult to look them in the eye and know we were tapping their Chancellor's communications...
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#8239925 - 11/10/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: MajSteve]
ruffcutt Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: SD
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82701103/Analyst-Desktop-Binder-REDACTED

Pages 20-23 list key words and search terms that are monitored on social media and I would assume that includes phone conversation.
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"Trust your gut and never forget that you can't depend on anyone"

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#8241047 - 11/10/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: MajSteve]
Pete E Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 12297
Loc: North Wales, UK
Originally Posted By: KBAR-04
Back to the original issue. I do find this offensive, and this coming from a retired intelligence officer of 22 years...I understand the "game" and it is a game at the macro level. I cant speak to specifics as far as intelligence programs but I can speak from my personal experience in Afghanistan.

In 2002 I was the intelligence chief for a coalition special operations task force and a liaison with the German DSO (their special ops directorate). This was before the NATO task force and these countries were voluntarily fighting alongside US troops. I spent many hours working with and socialising with my German and other allied camrades. I would have found it very difficult to look them in the eye and know we were tapping their Chancellor's communications...


America actions don't surprise me at all, nor do they particularly offend me.. I don't think any country can say they are another's ally 100% come what may any more..

In the main forum I mentioned a story that in the late 1950's the CIA via MI6 and with British Government approval recruited RAF pilots to fly super sensitive U2 missions over the USSR. I can't imagine a closer degree of co-operation between our two countries. But at the same time the US was desperately trying to prevent the UK exporting jet engines on the grounds of national security and was applying considerable pressure to halt these sales. I don't believe for one minute the CIA were not spying on the UK on behalf of the US Government.. Conversely, I would expect MI6 was doing exactly the same for the British Government..

As Ally's, it would be done extremely discretely and very low key by both sides, but both countries had their own national interests at stake..
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#8241270 - 11/11/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: Pete E]
boomtube Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1491
"Europeans outraged over US spying"

I'm not so outraged about watching our allies but I am out raged over electonic spying on American citizens without constraint or even motivation. It isn't as invasive as many presume but it stinks that polotical leadershio has gone so far with it as this administration has. Just think of our ho-hum "news" media would be if a Republican president was in charge of all this!

I was a civilian contractor helping to maintain and operate an NSA site in the southern Smokey Mountains for some 12 years (bureaucrats do nothing except shuffle paper and wave their hands for people who can do something to make things happen)and i know for a fact that what is now routine would NOT have happened AT ALL in those days! It was and remains illegal to do what they have been doing but now it's The One doing it and the media all HOPE they can CHANGE the dialog as they have the last five years.

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#8245598 - 11/12/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: boomtube]
RyanScott Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 1611
The nuclear missiles on UK SSBNs say "Property of the United States Navy" on them.

That is a good measure of our bond.

Bugging Merkel was foolish though. The risk exceeded the reward I'm sure.

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#8250237 - 11/13/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: watch4bear]
kevinh1157 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 1623
Loc: Occupied California
Love the WWII stories. My dad went in the US Army in 1943 and fought in the Pacific. Regarding the original intent of this post; what computer system does the NSA et al have in place that can monitor the enormous amount of traffic in real time? I'll look on EBAY for one. smile
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#8252113 - 11/14/13 Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: watch4bear]
eyeball Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 33679


Pretty spooky that zero could parlay, to the allieds enemies, all that info.


Edited by eyeball (11/14/13)
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