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#7156426 - 12/07/12 06:42 PM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: paul375]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13283
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Originally Posted By: paul375
Being filmed in the UK and having emails and Internet searches as well as bank transfers, credit-card transactions and travel activities and telephone calls monitored by the US government are diffent things. But they are doing the same to US citizens as well.



OK...Now I'm outraged! mad

All kidding aside, I don't blame you one bit for your anger and concern. wink
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#7157177 - 12/08/12 03:44 AM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: Pete E]
paul375 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 434
Loc: U.K.
Originally Posted By: Pete E
Paul,

The story I have heard is that the US routes certain domestic traffic over to the UK where it is intercepted by GCHQ.

GCHQ then send the recordings back to the interested Agency in the States.

Apparently this enables the Agency in the US to say hand on heart they don't intercept and listen to to domestic traffic and puts the actual monitoring ect in the hands of GCHQ and beyond US law..

Regards,

Peter



Hi Pete,
thats not the story thats coming out from people that have been involved with it. And as for the US government they don't have a great track record for "Hand on heart truth"!And nor does the British Government either!
All the Echelon locations in the in the UK,and world wide are run and operated by the NSA.
This is a BBC report from 1999.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/503224.stm

If any one is really interested in ECHELON , the read a book called "Chatter: Uncovering the Echelon Surveillance Network and the Secret World of Global Eavesdropping" by Patrick Radden Keefe.

Cheers,
Paul.

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#7158843 - 12/08/12 01:48 PM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: paul375]
gmsemel Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 5483
Loc: East Haddam, CT
Well has anybody ever heard of Herbert O. Yardley and The Cipher Bureau aka The Black Chamber? Since 1919 we been intercepting and reading other peoples mail. The Washington Navel Conference was notable. There is a saying knowledge is power and the Truth will set you free. knowing intentions of whom you have to deal with either friend or foe is just plain common sense. The Cipher Bureau would become the NSA. The NSA deals with codes and code breaking and intercepting communications. They listen that is all they do listen. And in the age of cell phones sat links ECHELON , just tries to make sense of the chatter. From a water boarded suspect in Gitmo, they got a name, from a name they got him on his cell phone once they gotten that, they were able to locate him, and he lead them to a house in Pakistan and the Seals to go and take care of the nations business. People should know when to shut up that includes the President. Talk about a loud mouth. Water boarding OBL would have gotten a lot of good intel, on where the rest are, and who are there bankers, thus more targets to be taken out. And OBL could go feet first into a furnace. Or just hung. What a waste of a decade + of hard intel work.
_________________________
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."

Anton Chekhov



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#7159788 - 12/08/12 05:54 PM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: tangozulu]
JSTUART Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 9518
Loc: Land of milk & honey, for some...
Originally Posted By: tangozulu
It always amazes me when it needs to be restated that the Battle for Britain was won by the British and her allies long before the US entered the war. Thanks to you all who stood up to Hitler. It was only with the help of the US and others that the fight was finally taken to the Germans and only after Germany declared war on the US at the end of 41. Your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
The Brits need not thank anyone for saving their asses from anyone. The world owes her a debt for standing alone at such a dark hr. saving a free foothold to launch D-Day in 44.


Britain did not stand alone....the rest of the commonwealth were there as well.

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#7160822 - 12/09/12 05:10 AM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: JSTUART]
Pugs Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 12116
I posted this in the campfire section a bit ago but this thread seems like a good place for it

http://www.bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900

It's amazing the amount of bombs that fell on London during the blitz and that any of the original city survives today. You can use the pull-down to view different weeks or even enter an address.

On the issue of Britain's loan from the US, the money that was paid back in 06 was postwar money. I didn't know much about it and learned some interesting stuff in these two articles. Largely the loan could have been paid back but made business sense to string it out to 06. Note that significant sums were paid back to Canada as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6215847.stm

Love getting over there for work and pleasure and hope to share a pint or dram sometime with a member or two from the campfire. We are truly two nations that have much more in common than we do differences.

There is no doubt that Britain and it's Commonwealth partners own the victory in the BoB and US had minimal input (despite Hollywierd trying to day otherwise). What happened afterward though would have been very different if the US had not weighed in and started the Lend Lease and thus began the war on the U-Boats. If that had not happened I suspect that Britain would have died a slow death by supply strangulation and then who knows what would have happened.

On the original topic, there is far more misinformation in this thread than truth and it heartens me to see that tin foil sales in the UK will remain as strong as they do in the US. grin

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#7166498 - 12/10/12 01:39 PM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: JSTUART]
tangozulu Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 921
Loc: BC/Yukon
And lots of Poles.
Originally Posted By: JSTUART
Originally Posted By: tangozulu
It always amazes me when it needs to be restated that the Battle for Britain was won by the British and her allies long before the US entered the war. Thanks to you all who stood up to Hitler. It was only with the help of the US and others that the fight was finally taken to the Germans and only after Germany declared war on the US at the end of 41. Your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
The Brits need not thank anyone for saving their asses from anyone. The world owes her a debt for standing alone at such a dark hr. saving a free foothold to launch D-Day in 44.


Britain did not stand alone....the rest of the commonwealth were there as well.

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#7704181 - 05/02/13 01:26 AM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: paul375]
OUTCAST Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 3176
Loc: Hongry Gulch, WV
Paul...,

Not sure where your data came from , but for sure some of it is dated.
The Teufelsburg site was in the British Sector of Berlin. It was technically an RAF
Operation. Yes, there were Americans working there.

It is my understanding shortly after the wall came down the German government requested that facility to be closed and it was. In fact, an episode of the TV series Covert Affairs was filmed at the Teufelsburg site. It appeared to be in ruins an was referred to in the program as " a relic of Cold War paranoia"

O

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#7704695 - 05/02/13 07:29 AM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: OUTCAST]
kutenay Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 7739
God, I get SO phucking TIRED of the never-ending BS about who "won" WWII and the claims by some.

The British, Canadian and Australian/New Zealand nations decided to declare war on Nazi Germany because of Hitler's "Lebensraum" which violated an old treaty that England had signed with Poland almost a century prior to the outset of the war in Europe.

We were outnumbered, outgunned and not prepared, although the signs of the on-coming struggle were only TOO obvious for years prior to 1939. My maternal grandfather, a Canadian officer with the 21st.Batt. C.E.F., wounded at Courcelette, the final battle of the slaughter known as "The Somme" (420,00 Empire soldiers fell) and, very badly, at the epitome of battle horrors, a place called "Passchendaele", (440.000 fell) openly told my then teenaged mother circa his early death in 1938, due to his wounds, that the war was coming and he intended to volunteer,again and expected that men like him would form the nucleus of the senior field commanders. i.e. Colonels and Brigadiers.

Yet, the Empire/Commonwealth governments did NOT prepare and the US did not either, much like Canada in the past 40+ years due to the curse of "multicultural" and "liberal" governments. Soooo, when it started, we were in an unenviable position as my late father and uncles, ALL volunteers for "active overseas service" as THEIR fathers, etc, had done in 1914, often told me.

The Poles, while making a contribution, would NOT have been able to do so ahd not WE given them the war materiels, training and shelter in the UK they needed to participate. They did fairly well, in Normandy, against the ferocious "SS-Hitler Jugend", but, were losing until Canadians arrived, killed many of the Krauts and joined forces to win that engagement.

So, while the various minor participants helped, the reality of the situation is that WWII, was "won" by Brits, Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis and Yanks....and, while we were winning the "Battle of the Atlantic", the entry of the USA WAS the factor that largely decided the final outcome, as we of the Commonwealth did not have the manpower to successfully invade continental Yurp...and, the Krauts were superb, formidable soldiers, so, who knows?

I think that the Brits and the Krauts would have HAD to eventually come to some terms to end the slaughter, had the USA not entered the fray and THAT would have been a rather ugly situation. As it was, we should have attacked the Russkies at the surrender by Jodl and kept on going to the Pacific.

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#7704724 - 05/02/13 07:39 AM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: kutenay]
travelingman1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/17/01
Posts: 3168
Loc: Huntsville, Alabama
Funny, the only mention of Russia, is what should have been done after Germany's surrender. Wonder what would have happened to England if all the planes, tanks, soldiers, etc.. that were tied up by the Eastern Front had been available to fight them? The Russian front literally absorbed German armies and left them fighting the rest of us with one hand tied behind their back. JMHO
_________________________
Some mornings, it just doesn't seem worth it, to chew through the straps!

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#7704797 - 05/02/13 07:59 AM Re: Europeans outraged over US spying [Re: travelingman1]
kutenay Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 7739
WE were giving the Russkies Spitfires, guns, ammo, etc, etc, BEFORE the US entry and right after Hitler invaded Russia, although the commies HAD BEEN our enemies when allied with the Nazis.

The major problem in the Nazi invasion of Russia, was NOT the fighting ability of the Russians, it was the lack of proper preparation by the Nazis, as Hitler would NOT listen to his generals and the Russian winter and being ordered to perform maneuvers that were suicidal in military terms by AH was the final straw.

The FACT is that WE stood, ALONE, against BOTH of these monsters for over two years, with AH and a year with both Stalin and AH and THAT set the tone of the war. We NEVER backed down, WE took our losses, 47.000 Canadian combat dead, alone, from a nation of 11.5 million and NOBODY managed to beat or intimidate us, even in the worst days of "The Blitz" or "The Battle of the Atlantic" ( in which two of my uncles served on Canadian warships, one badly injured).

Phuque the Russkies, they would have been exterminated were it not for us!

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