Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Blackhorn 209 failure to fire in cold weather?

I have a Green Mountain Brush rifle in .54 cal. This is my first muzzle loader so excuse my ignorance and any incorrect terminology.

I started out using Pyrodex 777 pellets with Hornady Great Plains bullets and had no issues in cold weather but my shot group sucked. This could be due to the pellets being old or maybe my rifle didn't like the bullets? The pellets came with the rifle and I have no idea how long they had been sitting around.

Then I did some reading and learned about Blackhorn 209 and thought it sounded like a great powder.

Gave it a try with Powerbelts, CCI 209 Magnum primers. The first two shots went off with no issues and showed great accuracy. The third shot pushed the bullet out the end of the barrel and that was it, no recoil at all and little to no noise. Tried a third shot with the same result.

Thought maybe it was a primer issue so I picked up a box of Fed 209 magnum primers and had the exact same result. Grabbed the 777 and had no issues.

All three range expereinces were in 10-15 degree above zero weather.

I checked my breech plug and the ignition tube is clear so that is not the problem.

After more time spent on the internet with my good friend Google I found out others have had ignition problems with Blackhorn 209 and that Knight redesigned their breech plug because of this.

I called Knight and asked them if their new breech plug would work in my rifle and they told me to call Green Mountain. Called Green Mountain and the guy didn't even know they had produced any rifles?! He had to put me on hold and go talk to someone else who said to use 777. Thanks for the help Knight and Green Mountain.

From what I can gather this rifle is basically a Knight Disc rifle that was built at Green Mountain while Knight had their doors closed. I honeslty can't see any differences between the two rifles and I know Green Mountain makes the barrels for Knight.

Any ideas on what direction to go in order to use Blackhorn 209 reliably?

I've not had that experience with my T/C Pro Hunter 50 and used it in some harsh conditions.

knights can have issues with bh209. You need the bare primer conversion IMO to be fully successful with bh209.

It sounds as though you had a primer failure not the powder. They recommend that you use shotgun primers for it not ML primers and I know on the CVA's you have to open up the flash hole.

Blackhorn 209 requires a certain degree of resistance from the projectile in order to ignite the powder charge properly. It needs an environment of pressure in order to ignite. This pressure is provided by a full-strength primer working against a bullet that fits tight in the bore.

Both the Great Plains and Powerbelt bullets may not provide this resistance and they begin to move enough when the primer fires to reduce the chamber pressure and let the "fire" go out, so to speak.

BH209 should be used in a muzzle loading rifle only with projectiles that are snug fits to the bore. I would bet your results will improve if you substitute a bullet and sabot that require a short-starter and at least moderate effort on the ramrod to fully seat the projectile.

I use BH209 in a Knight Disk rifle with a bare 209 conversion, Federal 209A or CCI 209M primers, a green Harvester Crush-Rib sabot and a .429 Hornady 300 gr XTP bullet with good results in cold weather.

That's not true if you're going to make a broad statement like that. I've shot hundreds of shots with Powerbelts and BH 209 with zero problems.

I'm not saying that isn't the problem in his gun. I was going to ask him how tight the bullet fit, but it's not true of all guns that use PB's.

No argument from me...the main point is that the bullet must be tight and provide resistance to the ignition. My Knights both work well with saboted bullets and get cranky with bore size lead bullets when using BH209.

The manufacturer of BH209 does not recommend "conical" bullets but does say they work in some guns. Based on my experience (admittedly limited to 4 different Knight rifles), the first thing I would suspect regarding the OP's problem is loose bullet fit.

I also think that there are some rifles, such as TC Omegas, that are more forgiving of this due to their breechplug design. If you have a rifle that works with Powerbelts and BH209, it is a keeper!

Its not a primer failure since it happened with two different brand primers and they both work with 777. And yes I am using shotgun primers not muzzle loading ones.

Your comment about resistance makes some sense but doesn't exlain why I get two rounds off perfectly while the rifle is still at or close to room temperature.

The powerbelts do go in a lot easier than the Great Plains bullets do. I can get the powerbelts in with no started but the Great Plains bullets take some effort to fully seat.

It sounds like the bare primer conversion is the way to go but then I have to take my gloves off to load one which is no fun in the cold. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Ditch the powerbelts and the problem will go away. Trust me, I know. Unlike others who are "experts", my experience is with the Knight 54 cal.

Bill V

OK check that off the list then. The fit of the bullet like the guys above mentioned has merit but I see you didn't reply to that . How was the fit , could you be loosing pressure ?

I take it you are using sabots of one kind or another Bill? If so have you had any issues loading them in cold weather? I am worried about them being a bit difficult once the temps drop but that may not be an issue. I have a few that came with the rifle so I might as well go give them a try.

Ignition is easier at room temperature and more difficult when the rifle is cold. If you are on the ragged edge of ignition to begin with, the temp change will make the difference.

if you are going to do a bare primer conversion, the Lehigh unit is a good choice. And the 2 'hottest" 209 primers are considered to be the Federal 209A and CCI 209M. I would be sure to use one or the other.

......

I have a box of the Fed and a box of the CCi's so I am set in that department.

Any idea on where to get the lehigh breech plug?

The powerbelts are loose enough in the bore that I could be losing pressure and that might explain why I am getting failure to fires after the rifles adjust to the ambient air temp.

Apparently the Lehigh conversion kits are off the market, but the one from Knight should work just fine:

http://www.knightrifles.com/209-conversion-breech-plug-M900044/

The main difference is that the Lehigh had a replaceable vent liner.

NOTE: This assumes that your Green Mountain rifle will accept the Knight parts...

Just heard that it will accept the Knight parts and I found a guy on modernmuzzleloader that is selling some of the Lehigh breech plugs so I sent him a message. Sure hope this cures my problem.

There are not a large number of .54 caliber bullets and sabots out there, but for deer hunting the Harvester 54/.452 Crush Rib should work nicely with a .452 bullet of 250-300 grs, and for big, mean stuff in Alaska you could try this:

http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.c...&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=18

I envy you your playground.

powerbelts are certainly not the problem, ive fired them with bh209 a solid 9,000 times over the past 2 years, a great deal of those shots on stock cva breech plugs.

some of the knights breech plugs are iffy, some work fine, others are a lot more sensitive.

Knight sells the bare primer conversion and i'd call knight and if you have any trouble, ask to speak with someone else.