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I push a single 375H&H into my Encore before I shoot. In all fairness, I had backup on my bear hunt this year but didn't need it.

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As there are a lot more PF rifles than CRF rifles now being made - and have been for quite a few years - I would venture to guess that a lot more bears are killed with PF rifles than CRF rifles.
After all, under all but the worst conditions they work every bit as well.


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A long time ago, in the 1960's and 1970's, the most used outfit by non-resident brown bear hunters was the Mark V Wby in 300 using 180 Nosler screw machined bullets.

Last edited by RinB; 12/03/12.


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Originally Posted by RinB
A long time ago, in the 1960's and 1970's, the most used outfit by non-resident brown bear hunters was the Mark V Wby in 300 using 180 Nosler screw machined bullets.


There was a time when the Wby MkV was semi-popular but it's price was always high - my memory is that the pre-64 M-70 was a lot more popular by a wide margin. The Rem M-700 eventually became almost as popular by the 1980's


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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I would worry more about getting the bullet in the right place the first time than worrying about anything else...


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Originally Posted by dawaba
FWIW, the US military considers push-feed to be perfect for hunting the Taliban and other baddies.


And I would venture a guess that those rifles get a thorough work out in some of the worst conditions imaginable. wink

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Originally Posted by ChipM
Originally Posted by dawaba
FWIW, the US military considers push-feed to be perfect for hunting the Taliban and other baddies.


And I would venture a guess that those rifles get a thorough work out in some of the worst conditions imaginable. wink


All true but missing the point as bears are shot at close range, rather than sniped at long range, and usually done with bolt actions. The "push feed" rifles being used by our military for similar CQB use are typically able to operate on full auto.

Still, a well tuned PF bolt action being operated by a competent user will work just fine for brown/grizzly hunting


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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Originally Posted by 458Win


Still, a well tuned PF bolt action being operated by a competent user will work just fine for brown/grizzly hunting


I think that, right there, is the crux of it all. I would also assume the "competent user" would have tried and tested the rifle enough to know whether it was sound in every respect of function and reliability. (I've been fooled by new rifles 'identical' to older proven models I own.)


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I'm a rare survivor of PF rifles.

truthfully I have been lucky, not crazy about how Rem attaches their bolt handles (though mine have stayed on) but I've never had a hitch feeding quite a few rounds through both a 7 mag and a .338 in PF mode.

and that from a guy that used to haul that rifle through some pretty extreme weather about 100 miles give or take, north of Dillingham for 4-6 weeks at a time.

but I got too old and left it to the whippersnappers like Shoemaker.

btw Phil how'd you guys fair on weather this year? Talked to Henry Tiffany the other day and he got hosed by weather this year, both during sheep and moose season. don't know if he had any hunts in Cold Bay this year, forgot to ask him.


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Very good point Phil and the comment was not directed at any other post. Whether PF or CRF, its the operator that can make things go bad in a hurray also.

Question, I've never had an ejector/extractor fail on either type of action or for that matter on a lever gun or pump. I've heard stories of broken extractors. How common is this? Phil, looking at your 458, it looks like its been here, there and everywhere, has this occurred or do you have a regular maintenece schedule to replace?

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Originally Posted by 2legit2quit


truthfully I have been lucky, not crazy about how Rem attaches their bolt handles (though mine have stayed on) ...


I use Rem 700s and, while the 'adhesive' method of construction isn't superior to most others, silver brazing can be very sound when it is done correctly. (That is the method I prefer for sight attachment to barrels in fact.) "When it is done correctly" is why I wouldn't take a rifle such as a 700 on any important or expensive hunt unless I knew the rifle well and trusted it. But I do use Model Sevens, even keep one around as a sometimes bear rifle, but I have shot them enough, both hot and soft, and know they don't come apart under either condition. But I'm one of those silly old boys who won't load ammo hot or tight for big game hunting. In fact, I'm quite okay with leaving an MOA on the table in order to have the assurance that my ammo will slide right in, empties will drop right out, and my rifle won't squirt anything anywhere other than out the spout. smile

Originally Posted by ChipM
I've heard stories of broken extractors. How common is this?


It's always the extractor, isn't it? wink That seems kind of funny when you put it into context. Some guides frown on the use of handloads. I don't find that so very surprising considering the fact that many folks seem to work with hunting ammo which is minimally sized, or has bullets seated kissing, or very nearly so, the rifling. (Ever see what happens when a case-full of powder ends up in the action? grin ... It ain't funny!) Then there's the ammo that is just barely short enough for the magazine, the ammo which hangs up...oh, only rarely. (You know when it will!) What about the magazine spring. Ever think about what will happen to the rifle if it breaks? Ever been on a hunt where everything is good until the wheels start coming off the cart and it turns into gits and shiggles? Did you count the cartridges you stuffed in the mag during reload, or did you just shove them in. Did I ask if you've ever broke a magazine spring? Yeah, it's about as funny as ice water all the way up to say, your belly button. Have you ever "slapped and slammed" ammo down range as fast and as hard as you can aim and go? No? Do you suppose you might do something similar when old canus lupus bolts on you after near miss? Are you certain your rifle feeds perfectly under those conditions? (That's a really lousy time to have a stove-pipe jam you know. eek )

Alright, I've told enough tales on somebody, but perhaps there is a point. I'm less concerned about what parts may get worn out at the range from time to time; more concerned with what can happen in the field and what I can prevent.

Last edited by Klikitarik; 12/06/12.

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I have only seen a few serious issues with extractors that failed and one was with a post 64 Win M-70 that had loads of dirt under the extractor and the other three were M-700 Rem's that pulled off the rim and left the fired case in the chamber.

As for this past fall, it was the wettest I have seen on the peninsula in 33 years. you can ask Biebs and I am sure he will verify that as well.


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www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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Originally Posted by 458Win


As for this past fall, it was the wettest I have seen on the peninsula in 33 years. you can ask Biebs and I am sure he will verify that as well.



Hate like hades I missed that!

kinda one of the nice things about you Phil, from what I know and hear, a guy don't need much verification if you say something, you can pretty well count on it. Good quality imo, tis why I enjoy Tiffany as well, he's a straight shooter, figuratively and literally.
Te, is the guy that turned me onto Barney's packs. He runs a good outfit, provides a great service to his clients, well you don't need to hear it, you live it.

always makes me cringe when I hear of outfitters that skirt the law or client needs, when I know there are guys like you and him and John Petersen, that bust hump to make it all happen legit.

didn't have much rain in the Interior during moose season, but we did have some wind.


got caught one afternoon/evening holding on for dear life 50 feet up a 90 ft. spruce tree while aspens were crashing all around me


dang near as cheap as going to the fair, believe we only spent $400 in gas to get there, but oh man what a ride!


I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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I shot my kodiak bear with a weatherby mark V 375 H&H. I didnt loose any sleep over my choice of gun.

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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Originally Posted by 2legit2quit


truthfully I have been lucky, not crazy about how Rem attaches their bolt handles (though mine have stayed on) ...


I use Rem 700s and, while the 'adhesive' method of construction isn't superior to most others, silver brazing can be very sound when it is done correctly. (That is the method I prefer for sight attachment to barrels in fact.) "When it is done correctly" is why I wouldn't take a rifle such as a 700 on any important or expensive hunt unless I knew the rifle well and trusted it. But I do use Model Sevens, even keep one around as a sometimes bear rifle, but I have shot them enough, both hot and soft, and know they don't come apart under either condition. But I'm one of those silly old boys who won't load ammo hot or tight for big game hunting. In fact, I'm quite okay with leaving an MOA on the table in order to have the assurance that my ammo will slide right in, empties will drop right out, and my rifle won't squirt anything anywhere other than out the spout. smile

Originally Posted by ChipM
I've heard stories of broken extractors. How common is this?


It's always the extractor, isn't it? wink That seems kind of funny when you put it into context. Some guides frown on the use of handloads. I don't find that so very surprising considering the fact that many folks seem to work with hunting ammo which is minimally sized, or has bullets seated kissing, or very nearly so, the rifling. (Ever see what happens when a case-full of powder ends up in the action? grin ... It ain't funny!) Then there's the ammo that is just barely short enough for the magazine, the ammo which hangs up...oh, only rarely. (You know when it will!) What about the magazine spring. Ever think about what will happen to the rifle if it breaks? Ever been on a hunt where everything is good until the wheels start coming off the cart and it turns into gits and shiggles? Did you count the cartridges you stuffed in the mag during reload, or did you just shove them in. Did I ask if you've ever broke a magazine spring? Yeah, it's about as funny as ice water all the way up to say, your belly button. Have you ever "slapped and slammed" ammo down range as fast and as hard as you can aim and go? No? Do you suppose you might do something similar when old canus lupus bolts on you after near miss? Are you certain your rifle feeds perfectly under those conditions? (That's a really lousy time to have a stove-pipe jam you know. eek )

Alright, I've told enough tales on somebody, but perhaps there is a point. I'm less concerned about what parts may get worn out at the range from time to time; more concerned with what can happen in the field and what I can prevent.



Great post Klik...lots of common sense stuff thre that is infrequently mentioned.It gets lost in the din of things like kissing lands and improved cases loaded to the bursting point.Folks seem to forget that the FIRST mission of rifle and ammo in hunting scenarios is to function flawlessly,first and foremost. The Brits understood this all too well.....Americans, OTOH worship at the alter of squeezing the last fps from the smallest possible case with the potential for less than perfect function.

Gently cycling rounds one at a time over sandbags doesn't bear the foggiest resemblance to running them hard from the shoulder if needed.I have seen the old "slip over the rim" extractor snafu but fortunately on a mule deer headed away.

A "kit" accompanies my M70's when I go on a trip for trigger repairs; I have needed it once in 30-odd years to fix someone else's rifle. He was astonished I even had it!

And a spare extractor was made for my M70 375....I have been remiss regarding a follower spring but at your suggestion will tend to that as well.

Thanks for bringing some common sense stuff to the thread.

Last edited by BobinNH; 12/07/12.



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The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BCJR
Interested to see if anyone here is using or has used a push feed action to hunt brown bears.I know a few who do and a few who refuse to. Ive got a 700 in 375 H&H with a sako extractor that i feel comfortable with. Anyone else?
I've shot three brown bears with PF rifles and not been let down yet--of course I shoot my rifles a bit and know they function accordingly. I've no hesitancy using any rifle that functions properly (regardless of design) and no patience for any rifle that doesn't.......


Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Suck bullets simply suck.

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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Originally Posted by 2legit2quit


truthfully I have been lucky, not crazy about how Rem attaches their bolt handles (though mine have stayed on) ...


I use Rem 700s and, while the 'adhesive' method of construction isn't superior to most others, silver brazing can be very sound when it is done correctly. (That is the method I prefer for sight attachment to barrels in fact.) "When it is done correctly" is why I wouldn't take a rifle such as a 700 on any important or expensive hunt unless I knew the rifle well and trusted it. But I do use Model Sevens, even keep one around as a sometimes bear rifle, but I have shot them enough, both hot and soft, and know they don't come apart under either condition. But I'm one of those silly old boys who won't load ammo hot or tight for big game hunting. In fact, I'm quite okay with leaving an MOA on the table in order to have the assurance that my ammo will slide right in, empties will drop right out, and my rifle won't squirt anything anywhere other than out the spout. smile



Regarding the construction method of attaching bolt handles on Remington 700s, let me add this for your consideration.

Just before Thanksgiving, I purchased a new Remington Model 700 XCR II rifle in .30-06. This is the model with the black TriNite finish. On Thanksgiving morning, that rifle went to the range.

After putting the rifle on the sand bags on the shooting bench, the shooter went to push the bolt forward on a completely empty rifle. The box of ammo was still unopened.

There followed a strange metallic clink, and I looked on in disbelief as the bolt handle was now lying on the shooting bench. It fell off before the bolt was even fully forward, and way before the bolt was being turned down.

Obviously the rifle did not get fired.

That rifle is now back at Remington, and I am waiting with great interest to see what they choose to do.

As an aside, the rifling in the barrel did not start uniformly where the barrel meets the receiver. It started on one side where it should, but it only started farther down the barrel on the other side.

Since the rifle could not be shot, I do not know what effect this would have had on accuracy.

Anything can happen in a manufacturing process. But this certainly raises some questions in my mind about the quality control of the current Remington Model 700.

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I am and always have been a fan of the Remington 700. From war zones to hunting every corner of the planet the 700 has been there done that. I have had yet to have a failure in any sense if the word , I do admit that I have sako style extractors installed in the majority of them, as i have witnessed extraction ejection failures on friends rifles .Although I have seen a 700 bolt pounded open with a rubber mallet after firing a "overloaded" round without the bolt coming apart , have even witnessed them kicked open with a boot heel due to the same problem. I have never been obsessed over controlled feed actions because I have found that feed issues with bolt actions are usually attributed to ammo/ magazine issues / spring and or follower. I like the simplicity of the 700. However, it does pain me to say that current production 700's have suffered some quality production issues , too bad that Remington has allowed this to happen. The simple and proven design isnt the problem its got to have something to do with chasing a dollar.

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The OP had a Remington Model 700 in .375 H&H with a Sako extractor. Well maintained, there really is nothing wrong with this.

Despite my current problems with a M700, I have others that are completely reliable. A M700 in .270 Win not only feeds well, but it will also feed loaded cartridges reliably when upside down, and it will do the same with empty brass cases. Push feed works.

But as my problems show, there is more to it than just push feed versus CRF. The M70s that I favor when hunting in dangerous game country are built differently than the M700s that I tend to use in tamer country. I like them both.

But when the rifle just absolutely has to work, M70s have certain features that make them more attractive to me than my M700.

I have little experience hunting in Alaska, and none hunting bears. But when I hunted in SE Alaska for Sitka blacktails with only my wife as my hunting partner, I carried my M70. She carried a push feed Ruger! They both worked!

If a gun has shown that it is reliable through a lengthy period of shooting and carrying it in real world hunting environments, then it is probably OK for hunting browns and grizzlies too.

If the rifle gives you confidence when in your hands, then it is probably a good rifle to take. There is no gun that I would rather have in my hands than my M70. YMMV.

Here are some photos to illustrate the bolt handle failure from my recent M700 XCR II. Things happen, but I would still trust a well used push feed M700.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

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Sad to see.Come on Remington get it together! Hooper ordinance does a knob reinforce worth looking into....not that we should have to!

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