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#7159039 - 12/08/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: bearstalker]
Kodiman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 320
Loc: Alaska, USA
Permits come 20 to a box...haha

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#7163468 - 12/10/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BCJR]
colorado Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 1841
Loc: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Originally Posted By: BCJR
Interested to see if anyone here is using or has used a push feed action to hunt brown bears.I know a few who do and a few who refuse to. Ive got a 700 in 375 H&H with a sako extractor that i feel comfortable with. Anyone else?


Got this one with a push feed, Rem 700 XCR II in 375 Weatherby ...



_________________________
Regards,

Chuck

"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Ghost And The Darkness


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#7164592 - 12/10/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: colorado]
BCJR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1349
Loc: A.K. SE
nice bear . guess he will never know a push feed did him in!

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#7176347 - 12/13/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: 458Win]
Barkoff Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/02/04
Posts: 24157
Loc: Central CA
Can somebody explain to me the concern over a push feed instead of a controlled feed? What is the prevailing wisdom of concern, that push feeds do what?
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#7176728 - 12/13/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Barkoff]
waterrat Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 801
Loc: Lake Iliamna Alaska
It's mainly a mental exercise, both work fine when they are kept clean and your ammo is in good shape. If my pre-64s turned into push-feeds in 12 days it wouldn't make a rats ass difference to me and I guide & hunt brown bears every year.
_________________________
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#7177077 - 12/13/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: waterrat]
Ray Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 1960
Loc: Alaska
It probably makes no difference, although I have heard stories of people under stress jamming a push-feed rifle. The last time I heard of such a case was about eight years ago, and this is what I remember: a client shot and injured a bear, and the guide had to track it. He was carrying a .416 (push-feed), and the bear charged him. During the struggle he jammed his rifle. If I well remember he managed to kill the bear, but the bear chewed him some.

Maybe somebody here will remember who this guide was (?)


Edited by Ray (12/13/12)

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#7178667 - 12/13/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Ray]
ironbender Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 44346
Loc: In the shadow of the Kenai Mtn...
I don't remember his name, but his friends call him Lucky.
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--Pat Parelli

American by birth; Alaskan by choice.


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#7179763 - 12/14/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: waterrat]
BCJR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1349
Loc: A.K. SE
Originally Posted By: waterrat
It's mainly a mental exercise, both work fine when they are kept clean and your ammo is in good shape. If my pre-64s turned into push-feeds in 12 days it wouldn't make a rats ass difference to me and I guide & hunt brown bears every year.

That sums it up for me. I started this thread because the PF vs CRF thing is one of those "gun talk" topics that I have heard all my life. And figured a Brown/Griz hunt would be about the best test of peoples opinion. Ford Dodge Chevy. Like I said in the op I would not hesitate to take a pf on a bear hunt or to Africa , my 700's feed sideways , upside down and so do my crf's. Been cool to hear everyone's input.

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#7184985 - 12/15/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BCJR]
tsm Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 8
A few years ago Craig Boddington said that the only jam he had ever had was with a CRF rifle, and it was so bad that it took a while to "fix."
I've never found my push feeds to cause a problem, then again I take care of my weapons and my handloads are never pushing the envelope.

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#7185740 - 12/15/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Barkoff]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30717
Originally Posted By: Barkoff
Can somebody explain to me the concern over a push feed instead of a controlled feed? What is the prevailing wisdom of concern, that push feeds do what?


Barkoff the mechanics go like this:

In a properly designed CRF, the cartridge is matched to the length of the magazine box,feed rails are set up for that cartridge,extraction is handled by a large,non rotating claw extractor.But there are subtle nuances to the system that work in sync with one anither, In a proper CRF system(Mauser 98) everything is there for a purpose and works in sync with everything else.

Feeding is accomplished as the bolt moves forward and the bolt face picks up the rim of the case and strips it forward.At the instant the cartridge pops up from the rails it slides under the claw extractor,which grabs or "controls it" on the balance of its trip into the chamber,the firing of the cartridge,and its trip out of the chamber as the bolt is turned up and drawn to the rear.These extractors generally grab a large chunk of the rimof the case,making it harder to "pull though" a soft brass rim.In a mauser 98 design,thereis a machined reces around the bolt behind the bolt head into which fits another claw on the extractor which supports the extractor's grip on the case, so that the harder you yank on the bolt, the tighter the grip on the case...helpful with a stuck or dirty case,and prevents the extractor from jumping the rim of the case and leaving a fired case into the chamber.

Extraction is accomplished by two functions in a proper design;the first is as you lift the bolt handle and the camming action draws the cartridge slightly to the rear,freeing its grips on the chamber walls(in a properly designed cartridge that is tapered.An improved case with parallel sides(AI)does not do this as well as a tapered case.)Again, helpful in extracing a dirty or stuck case. As the bolt is moved forcefully to the rear,the extractor holds the case until it encounters the standing ejector which slides into a slot in the bolt face(perfectly "timed") and kicks the fired case out the loading port.

It is important to note here,that in a proper CRF,the bolt cannot pick up the next cartridge until the one on the bolt face is kicked out the port(or it shouldn't and if it does, it is not a properly made CRF action).

In a PF action,the cartridge is loose once it clears the rails in feeding and does not get grabbed by the extractor until the cartridge is fully,or almost,chambered,when the extractor jumps over the rim and grabs it.

This is in part what distinguishes one system over the other....if in operating the PF, you short stroke the bolt for any reason(panic in wartime,a buff bearing down or plain old buck fever,or a cartridge reluctant to chamber)and withdraw the bolt, the cartridge is now sitting in the rails and loading port.If you pull the bolt back far enough,and then move it forward again, the bolt will pick up another cartridge and the result is two cartridges in the port and the rifle will jam.(In a properly built CRF,this should not happen provided the cartridge length is sync'd to the magazine box...if you chamber(say) a 7x57 in a 30/06 length actionso that the cartdige is not in sync with the nag box length,all bets could be off....it will likely work but you could double feed potentially with that set up).

Ejection with the PF is controlled by a plunger in the bolt face actuated by a small spring that exerts pressure on the cartridge as it is withdrawn from the chamber and kicks it out the loading port once the mouth of the case clears the receiver.

Extraction with the PF is accomplished(Rem700) with a small spring in the bolt face that jumps over the rim of the case as the bolt is turned down into battery;ditto a M70 PF where a small spring loaded extractor slides over the rim when the round is chambered.These are both small,don't grab as large a hunk of the rim as the more massive extractor of the Mauser 98 design.other designs use a different extractor,like the Sako,M16 type, etc.

Mighta left something out....my brain is fogged smile
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#7185915 - 12/15/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BobinNH]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36996
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Bob,

I ran the "charging Cape buffalo" station on a practical hunting course for three years. The first year it was rapid shooting at stationary targets at different distances, but the last two years we had the target "charging" from behind a bush almost directly at the shooter--who had 6-7 seconds to get off as many shots as possible. Most people got off two, but a few very quick shots could get off three, and the best shots got off three in the "vitals." I saw just as many people jam controlled-feed rifles as push-feed rifles, usually by not bringing the bolt back far enough to eject the empty (short stroking).

According to shooting lore, this isn't possible, but after looking at the jams and doing a little thinking, I concluded the CRF jams could occur for two reasons:

1) The next round down in the magazine can still slide forward with the short-stroked bolt, either due to friction from the empty case, or:

2) The very bottom of the bolt face pushes the empty forward. This is rarer, but can happen in some CRF actions if the bolt is drawn just far enough back for the bolt face to end up behind the case head, but not far enough for the case head to hit the ejector.

On the other hand, empties from push-feed cases are ejected the instant the case mouth clears the front receiver ring. Thus the bolt doesn't have to travel as far back as in a CRF action for the fired case to eject.

The biggie in operating a bolt action is not whether it's PF or CRF, but bringing the bolt all the way back until it stops. People who operate a bolt by grabbing the knob sometimes don't bring it back all the way, especially when trying to hurry.

There are several ways to run a bolt, but the way I do it is the palm method. Instead of grabbing the bolt knob, I pull it back with my fingers cupped, palm up. When the bolt stops I reverse my hand and push the bolt forward, palm still open, with my thumb. It's impossible to short-stroke a bolt when using the technique, and it's also usually faster for most people, since instead of 4 motions (lift bolt knob, pull bolt back, drop bolt knob, push bolt forward) it's basically just a back-and-forth, 2-stroke motion.

I am not the world's fastest with a bolt rifle, but I shot the charging buffalo target as fast as anybody else did, even shooters who were using lever-actions. Sometimes that speed has come in handy in the field, including when I shot my only grizzly--with a push-feed rifle.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#7185963 - 12/15/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Mule Deer]
leftycarbon Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 3241
Loc: Colorado-7600'
I have many discusions with D Lazer, master Alaskan guide. He has been involved in over 300 brown/grizzly kills. The most jams have come from M70 winchesers and mausers. Remingtons and the tang safety Ruger M77's have been the most reliable. His back up rifle is a tang safety M77 30-06 loaded with 220 gr factory.

Lefty C

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#7186288 - 12/15/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Mule Deer]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30717
JB: Pulling the bolt back all the way is the trick and "good form" smile

I was trying to explain the theory and mechanics of one vs the other.I know neither system is infallible...I haven't ever had a problem with a CRF or a PF but then I have made a point of practicing quite a bit years past,so they haven't given me any trouble.

I do like the feel of a controlled feed a lot better....kind of like the difference between a stick and auto transmission,where you can feel he action run through its paces smile





Lefty all I can say is that if that guide is seeing lots of jams with Mausers and Winchesters he must be guiding a bunch of boobs.

I hardly think it has a thing to do with the inherent superiorty of the other actions.


Edited by BobinNH (12/15/12)
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#7188050 - 12/16/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BobinNH]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36996
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Bob,

You did an excellent job of describing the theory and mechanics. i was just adding some of my experience.

I might also add that I firmly believe the 98 Mauser is still the most reliable bolt-action in every basic way. The pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester (or the M70 Classic) is good but for several reasons doesn't measure up except in peripheral ways, such as the safety and trigger. But the heart of the 98 action is superior, both in extraction and gas handling.

One of the best of the newer CRF actions is the Montana 1999 action. It was designed to combine the best features of the 98 and M70, and pretty much succeeded!
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#7188410 - 12/16/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BobinNH]
leftycarbon Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/09/04
Posts: 3241
Loc: Colorado-7600'
Bob,


WellI don't know if they were boobs or not, but when a big brownie stans up about 20 yards away it's easy to be somewhat "boob like". At least for a while.

LC

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#7188883 - 12/16/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Mule Deer]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30717
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Bob,

You did an excellent job of describing the theory and mechanics. i was just adding some of my experience.

I might also add that I firmly believe the 98 Mauser is still the most reliable bolt-action in every basic way. The pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester (or the M70 Classic) is good but for several reasons doesn't measure up except in peripheral ways, such as the safety and trigger. But the heart of the 98 action is superior, both in extraction and gas handling.

One of the best of the newer CRF actions is the Montana 1999 action. It was designed to combine the best features of the 98 and M70, and pretty much succeeded!


JB: Yes in its purest form I think the 98 is the better mousetrap.There are features it has that distinguish it from the M70 and I think it is somewhat "tougher" in some regards.I like them best when they are set up like a M70, though and really like the new trigger that Alaskan outfit makes for the Mauser.


Lefty: I can understand the boob-like behaviour around brown bears.Thats when your muscle memory had better take over. smile
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You can't say very much on here without pissing at least SOMEBODY off-get used to it.

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#7191291 - 12/16/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Mule Deer]
DakotaDeer Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 14865
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
One of the best of the newer CRF actions is the Montana 1999 action. It was designed to combine the best features of the 98 and M70, and pretty much succeeded!


Could you explain the specific good points of the Montana action? What exactly are the best points from both worlds?

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#7191400 - 12/16/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: DakotaDeer]
Salmonella Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 4085
Loc: Behind Enemy Lines
Push fed Weatherby MK V Ultralight in .300 wby, 200 gr Nosler Partition.

Dead on impact.

10 ft 1 X 28"


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#7192132 - 12/17/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Salmonella]
waterrat Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 801
Loc: Lake Iliamna Alaska
Very nice Brown Bear Salmonella! Very potent combo.
_________________________
I tend to use more than enough gun

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#7193533 - 12/17/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: leftycarbon]
458Win Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 2675
Loc: AK peninsula
Originally Posted By: leftycarbon
I have many discusions with D Lazer, master Alaskan guide. He has been involved in over 300 brown/grizzly kills. The most jams have come from M70 winchesers and mausers. Remingtons and the tang safety Ruger M77's have been the most reliable. His back up rifle is a tang safety M77 30-06 loaded with 220 gr factory.

Lefty C


I worked for Dave one sheep season in 1980 and have been guiding ever since. I see him from time to time on the Alaska peninsula and although he is active I don't think the AK F&G records will show that he has anywhere near 300 bear kills. He does still use his old 30-06 but is not all that knowledgeable about rifles.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

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#7193552 - 12/17/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: DakotaDeer]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30717
Originally Posted By: DakotaDeer
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
One of the best of the newer CRF actions is the Montana 1999 action. It was designed to combine the best features of the 98 and M70, and pretty much succeeded!


Could you explain the specific good points of the Montana action? What exactly are the best points from both worlds?


DD: Not JB but from what I know of it,and IIRC the Montana has a Mauser 98-type breach vs the M70,so would handle escaping gas somewhat better.There may be other differences I'm not aware of.
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You can't say very much on here without pissing at least SOMEBODY off-get used to it.

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#7195034 - 12/17/12 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BobinNH]
Dave93 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1449
Loc: Big Sky Country
All my hunting is done with a Mauser of one form or another......when I push, they feed. grin

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#7264152 - 01/04/13 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Dave93]
Cold Zero Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 327
How many Bear kills does D Lazer have ?

I killed my Brn. Bear with a Weatherby Mark V Push Feed .340 250 Gr. N.P.

10'10" by 28 3/16"

I am going for Grizzly in May with a R700 .300 W.M. Push Feed.

That being said, if you have an appropriate CRF rifle, all things being equal I would use that.
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#7278128 - 01/07/13 Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Cold Zero]
dennisinaz Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 8377
Loc: AZ
Kind of off the exact topic, but I have noticed that my Sako Finnbear acts like a CRF as the feeding round snaps into the bolt face and is retained quite firmly- cannot be removed without withdrawing the bolt far enough to let the bullet clear the front ring. Kinda gives more credibility to this old action after all! I have run it as fast as I can move the bolt and cannot induce a jam. I would use it on bears for sure.

I have seen two 700s where the extractors failed. I have also seen one tang safety ruger where the extractor broke in the first box of ammo- no doubt flawed from the get-go.

I think that anyone who goes into battle, whether against soldiers or dangerous game, without wringing out their rifle in real-life like situations, deserves whatever hand they are dealt.
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NRA Benefactor Member

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.


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