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#7164592 - 12/09/12 09:32 PM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: colorado]
BCJR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1251
Loc: A.K. SE
nice bear . guess he will never know a push feed did him in!

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#7176347 - 12/12/12 06:45 PM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: 458Win]
Barkoff Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/02/04
Posts: 22766
Loc: Central CA
Can somebody explain to me the concern over a push feed instead of a controlled feed? What is the prevailing wisdom of concern, that push feeds do what?
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#7176728 - 12/12/12 08:06 PM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Barkoff]
waterrat Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/20/05
Posts: 658
Loc: Lake Iliamna Alaska
It's mainly a mental exercise, both work fine when they are kept clean and your ammo is in good shape. If my pre-64s turned into push-feeds in 12 days it wouldn't make a rats ass difference to me and I guide & hunt brown bears every year.
_________________________
I tend to use more than enough gun

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#7177077 - 12/12/12 10:56 PM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: waterrat]
Ray Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 1903
Loc: Alaska
It probably makes no difference, although I have heard stories of people under stress jamming a push-feed rifle. The last time I heard of such a case was about eight years ago, and this is what I remember: a client shot and injured a bear, and the guide had to track it. He was carrying a .416 (push-feed), and the bear charged him. During the struggle he jammed his rifle. If I well remember he managed to kill the bear, but the bear chewed him some.

Maybe somebody here will remember who this guide was (?)


Edited by Ray (12/12/12 10:58 PM)

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#7178667 - 12/13/12 11:13 AM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Ray]
ironbender Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 40240
Loc: In the shadow of the Kenai Mtn...
I don't remember his name, but his friends call him Lucky.
_________________________
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli

American by birth; Alaskan by choice.

The Best 7 Minutes On Gun Control

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#7179763 - 12/13/12 04:13 PM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: waterrat]
BCJR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1251
Loc: A.K. SE
Originally Posted By: waterrat
It's mainly a mental exercise, both work fine when they are kept clean and your ammo is in good shape. If my pre-64s turned into push-feeds in 12 days it wouldn't make a rats ass difference to me and I guide & hunt brown bears every year.

That sums it up for me. I started this thread because the PF vs CRF thing is one of those "gun talk" topics that I have heard all my life. And figured a Brown/Griz hunt would be about the best test of peoples opinion. Ford Dodge Chevy. Like I said in the op I would not hesitate to take a pf on a bear hunt or to Africa , my 700's feed sideways , upside down and so do my crf's. Been cool to hear everyone's input.

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#7184985 - 12/14/12 08:25 PM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BCJR]
tsm Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 8
A few years ago Craig Boddington said that the only jam he had ever had was with a CRF rifle, and it was so bad that it took a while to "fix."
I've never found my push feeds to cause a problem, then again I take care of my weapons and my handloads are never pushing the envelope.

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#7185740 - 12/15/12 06:05 AM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Barkoff]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 28581
Originally Posted By: Barkoff
Can somebody explain to me the concern over a push feed instead of a controlled feed? What is the prevailing wisdom of concern, that push feeds do what?


Barkoff the mechanics go like this:

In a properly designed CRF, the cartridge is matched to the length of the magazine box,feed rails are set up for that cartridge,extraction is handled by a large,non rotating claw extractor.But there are subtle nuances to the system that work in sync with one anither, In a proper CRF system(Mauser 98) everything is there for a purpose and works in sync with everything else.

Feeding is accomplished as the bolt moves forward and the bolt face picks up the rim of the case and strips it forward.At the instant the cartridge pops up from the rails it slides under the claw extractor,which grabs or "controls it" on the balance of its trip into the chamber,the firing of the cartridge,and its trip out of the chamber as the bolt is turned up and drawn to the rear.These extractors generally grab a large chunk of the rimof the case,making it harder to "pull though" a soft brass rim.In a mauser 98 design,thereis a machined reces around the bolt behind the bolt head into which fits another claw on the extractor which supports the extractor's grip on the case, so that the harder you yank on the bolt, the tighter the grip on the case...helpful with a stuck or dirty case,and prevents the extractor from jumping the rim of the case and leaving a fired case into the chamber.

Extraction is accomplished by two functions in a proper design;the first is as you lift the bolt handle and the camming action draws the cartridge slightly to the rear,freeing its grips on the chamber walls(in a properly designed cartridge that is tapered.An improved case with parallel sides(AI)does not do this as well as a tapered case.)Again, helpful in extracing a dirty or stuck case. As the bolt is moved forcefully to the rear,the extractor holds the case until it encounters the standing ejector which slides into a slot in the bolt face(perfectly "timed") and kicks the fired case out the loading port.

It is important to note here,that in a proper CRF,the bolt cannot pick up the next cartridge until the one on the bolt face is kicked out the port(or it shouldn't and if it does, it is not a properly made CRF action).

In a PF action,the cartridge is loose once it clears the rails in feeding and does not get grabbed by the extractor until the cartridge is fully,or almost,chambered,when the extractor jumps over the rim and grabs it.

This is in part what distinguishes one system over the other....if in operating the PF, you short stroke the bolt for any reason(panic in wartime,a buff bearing down or plain old buck fever,or a cartridge reluctant to chamber)and withdraw the bolt, the cartridge is now sitting in the rails and loading port.If you pull the bolt back far enough,and then move it forward again, the bolt will pick up another cartridge and the result is two cartridges in the port and the rifle will jam.(In a properly built CRF,this should not happen provided the cartridge length is sync'd to the magazine box...if you chamber(say) a 7x57 in a 30/06 length actionso that the cartdige is not in sync with the nag box length,all bets could be off....it will likely work but you could double feed potentially with that set up).

Ejection with the PF is controlled by a plunger in the bolt face actuated by a small spring that exerts pressure on the cartridge as it is withdrawn from the chamber and kicks it out the loading port once the mouth of the case clears the receiver.

Extraction with the PF is accomplished(Rem700) with a small spring in the bolt face that jumps over the rim of the case as the bolt is turned down into battery;ditto a M70 PF where a small spring loaded extractor slides over the rim when the round is chambered.These are both small,don't grab as large a hunk of the rim as the more massive extractor of the Mauser 98 design.other designs use a different extractor,like the Sako,M16 type, etc.

Mighta left something out....my brain is fogged smile
_________________________
Just because I'm not listening...doesn't mean I'm not paying attention.

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#7185915 - 12/15/12 07:01 AM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: BobinNH]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 34040
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Bob,

I ran the "charging Cape buffalo" station on a practical hunting course for three years. The first year it was rapid shooting at stationary targets at different distances, but the last two years we had the target "charging" from behind a bush almost directly at the shooter--who had 6-7 seconds to get off as many shots as possible. Most people got off two, but a few very quick shots could get off three, and the best shots got off three in the "vitals." I saw just as many people jam controlled-feed rifles as push-feed rifles, usually by not bringing the bolt back far enough to eject the empty (short stroking).

According to shooting lore, this isn't possible, but after looking at the jams and doing a little thinking, I concluded the CRF jams could occur for two reasons:

1) The next round down in the magazine can still slide forward with the short-stroked bolt, either due to friction from the empty case, or:

2) The very bottom of the bolt face pushes the empty forward. This is rarer, but can happen in some CRF actions if the bolt is drawn just far enough back for the bolt face to end up behind the case head, but not far enough for the case head to hit the ejector.

On the other hand, empties from push-feed cases are ejected the instant the case mouth clears the front receiver ring. Thus the bolt doesn't have to travel as far back as in a CRF action for the fired case to eject.

The biggie in operating a bolt action is not whether it's PF or CRF, but bringing the bolt all the way back until it stops. People who operate a bolt by grabbing the knob sometimes don't bring it back all the way, especially when trying to hurry.

There are several ways to run a bolt, but the way I do it is the palm method. Instead of grabbing the bolt knob, I pull it back with my fingers cupped, palm up. When the bolt stops I reverse my hand and push the bolt forward, palm still open, with my thumb. It's impossible to short-stroke a bolt when using the technique, and it's also usually faster for most people, since instead of 4 motions (lift bolt knob, pull bolt back, drop bolt knob, push bolt forward) it's basically just a back-and-forth, 2-stroke motion.

I am not the world's fastest with a bolt rifle, but I shot the charging buffalo target as fast as anybody else did, even shooters who were using lever-actions. Sometimes that speed has come in handy in the field, including when I shot my only grizzly--with a push-feed rifle.
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

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#7185963 - 12/15/12 07:17 AM Re: Anyone hunting brown/Griz bears with a push feed? [Re: Mule Deer]
leftycarbon Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3141
Loc: Mid Atlantic & Northern Colora...
I have many discusions with D Lazer, master Alaskan guide. He has been involved in over 300 brown/grizzly kills. The most jams have come from M70 winchesers and mausers. Remingtons and the tang safety Ruger M77's have been the most reliable. His back up rifle is a tang safety M77 30-06 loaded with 220 gr factory.

Lefty C

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