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#7123383 - 11/29/12 Botswana to ban hunting
paul375 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 434
Loc: U.K.
Yahoo news article states Botswana is to ban Hunting by 2014.
Is this just on government owned land or is hunting still available on private land.
I think this is a disaster and can see the wild life suffering from this big time.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/botswana-ban-wildlife-hunting-103517479.html

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#7123393 - 11/29/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: paul375]
Shakari Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 1005
Loc: Retired from the Professional ...
This is old news but the situation for now at least is that hunting will continue in the privately owned areas such as Tuli Block etc but you're dead right, the ban is going to be a disaster for the game populations.

My own theory is that there's a lot more involved than first appears. I hate to say it but I suspect that sometime in the future, we'll find that more water has been diverted from the delta and redirected to the mines and this will obviously cause immense damage to the entire region.

Elephant populations and in turn, habitat damage and desertification will increase and all game populations will eventually collapse.

Sadly, we've seen it all happen before in Kenya but nevertheless, it's gonna happen again.

Karibu Afrika. frown
_________________________
Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking though it?
Searched the vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost

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#7123439 - 11/29/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: Shakari]
paul375 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 434
Loc: U.K.
I think it will be a disaster.
The only ones that will be hunting in Botswana from Jan 2014 will have an AK47 or a snare!
Cheers,
Paul.

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#7123872 - 11/29/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: paul375]
SilentT Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 254
Loc: Kansas City, Missouri
I've heard from the BWMA that hunting on private lands will be unaffected by this, it will only apply to government lands.
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#7124062 - 11/29/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: SilentT]
Shakari Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 1005
Loc: Retired from the Professional ...
Originally Posted By: SilentT
I've heard from the BWMA that hunting on private lands will be unaffected by this, it will only apply to government lands.


At the moment that's quite true but after his recent statements I wouldn't trust Khama any further than I could throw him and if you read his statements carefully, you'll notice he often refers to 'Botswana' rather than the Govt owned areas of Botswana.

I won't be at all surprised if he tries to ban hunting on private land at some time in the future.
_________________________
Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking though it?
Searched the vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost

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#7124103 - 11/29/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: Shakari]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 27761
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
Only the people of Botswana will suffer from this stupidity of their Government
_________________________
There’s a great place to go when you’re broke — to work!”



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#7124439 - 11/29/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: bea175]
JJHACK Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 7582
Loc: Touchet Wa. & Ellisras South ...
I have said this so many times on this website that It just made me appear as a "used car salesmen" rather then the kind of business man that I am.
The least expensive time to have gone to hunt Plains game was about 5 years ago or prior, even 3 years ago was still a good bargain.

Starting about that time, the Zimbabwe issues made ( allowed) the hunt prices in RSA increase because so few would trust the "holiday" in Zim. This made the hunting in RSA much higher demand. Zambia and Mozambique have struggles with logistics and prices making them less competitive, or maybe less trustworthy. Just as many other sub saharan countries are becoming.

Tanzania has never been inexpensive, but over the last five years, the way that country runs it's leasing to outfitters has become somewhat monopolized and it will never be an affordable destination for the middle class sportsman. Now taking Botswana out of the mix and we are getting to the few remaining places the typical middle class PG hunting can go.

This leaves us Namibia and South Africa. Namibia does not have the populations of game that RSA has, but will likely offer great hunting into the foreseeable future, although the bookings are already higher then in the past, and will grow more now without Botswana. With the greater demand, prices will adjust accordingly.

South Africa expenses and prices have already gone up by about double in the last 5-7 years for many outfitters. in 2000 Kudu were 1100-1250 bucks, in 2005 you could still find them for 1500-1700, today a trophy bull in a natural wild area will be at 2000 or more on many hunting concessions and properties. Shooting the Greater Kudu in the Eastern Cape may be lower, but they are not natural there. You decide on that for yourself.

Airfare from Seattle to Joburg in 1995-1997 was 1200-1400 bucks through Amsterdam (prior to SAA and Delta flying direct) now it's well over 2000 bucks. Where is this going with fuel costs going through the roof?

In any case there are going to be other things that will eventually creep into the mix. Primarily the quality experience with South Africa pushing heavily into Affirmative Action employees the same as they have done with SAA. Imagine the future of this with not just PH's but also outfitters and owners trying to run this kind of business and interact with foreign visiting hunters.

This is not meant to be racist, just a very obvious set of facts. When English is your third or forth language and there is a struggle to read and write, or communicate with people it's not going to be an easy transition to this type of business. There is a huge gap between what visiting hunters expect and what the native culture will provide. When the government hires your employees for you the end is near.

Then the gun issues are creeping into the mix. How much longer with you travel with firearms? Who would have thought in 1997-2000 when I could walk up to the SAP desk with my hunters and fill the gun forms out which took 2 minutes, including being issued a concealed carry permit for a semi auto handgun. To Where we are now?

The complexity now drives most folks to use a 125.00 gun permit service, and getting a handgun into the country to carry, is not realistic. Getting one to hunt with is possible but a headache unless you have help to get it done.

Please, whether or not you choose to hunt with my company or not, go to Africa now. Just get your stuff together and go. This experience is not forever, there will be 1000's of guys that find themselves looking back and wishing they prioritized things differently.

for the last 11 years I have been having this dream to hunt there with my now 11 year old son . I want him to hunt with me so he can see what his father does, and experience this together. Because of his age, and me working the whole time, he has not yet come with me to camp. I'm worried that by the time he is 14-16 years old and he can really be mature enough to get involved and really enjoy this experience it will be too late to do this with him.

Added to this is the economy of the USA. Fewer and fewer people are pulling the trigger on a 10,000 plus trip. With fewer people the business itself becomes threatened. Our Europe hunters? Yeah right,....Europe economics are swirling the bowl and are even worse then the USA.

Please really think about the priorities in your lives. I'm sure in 2020 I will be posting here again saying "I warned you folks this was coming"





When the hunting stops in
_________________________
www.huntingadventures.net

When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)

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#7129155 - 11/30/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: JJHACK]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 14846
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Originally Posted By: JJHACK
I have said this so many times on this website that It just made me appear as a "used car salesmen" rather then the kind of business man that I am.
The least expensive time to have gone to hunt Plains game was about 5 years ago or prior, even 3 years ago was still a good bargain.

Starting about that time, the Zimbabwe issues made ( allowed) the hunt prices in RSA increase because so few would trust the "holiday" in Zim. This made the hunting in RSA much higher demand. Zambia and Mozambique have struggles with logistics and prices making them less competitive, or maybe less trustworthy. Just as many other sub saharan countries are becoming.

Tanzania has never been inexpensive, but over the last five years, the way that country runs it's leasing to outfitters has become somewhat monopolized and it will never be an affordable destination for the middle class sportsman. Now taking Botswana out of the mix and we are getting to the few remaining places the typical middle class PG hunting can go.

This leaves us Namibia and South Africa. Namibia does not have the populations of game that RSA has, but will likely offer great hunting into the foreseeable future, although the bookings are already higher then in the past, and will grow more now without Botswana. With the greater demand, prices will adjust accordingly.

South Africa expenses and prices have already gone up by about double in the last 5-7 years for many outfitters. in 2000 Kudu were 1100-1250 bucks, in 2005 you could still find them for 1500-1700, today a trophy bull in a natural wild area will be at 2000 or more on many hunting concessions and properties. Shooting the Greater Kudu in the Eastern Cape may be lower, but they are not natural there. You decide on that for yourself.

Airfare from Seattle to Joburg in 1995-1997 was 1200-1400 bucks through Amsterdam (prior to SAA and Delta flying direct) now it's well over 2000 bucks. Where is this going with fuel costs going through the roof?

In any case there are going to be other things that will eventually creep into the mix. Primarily the quality experience with South Africa pushing heavily into Affirmative Action employees the same as they have done with SAA. Imagine the future of this with not just PH's but also outfitters and owners trying to run this kind of business and interact with foreign visiting hunters.

This is not meant to be racist, just a very obvious set of facts. When English is your third or forth language and there is a struggle to read and write, or communicate with people it's not going to be an easy transition to this type of business. There is a huge gap between what visiting hunters expect and what the native culture will provide. When the government hires your employees for you the end is near.

Then the gun issues are creeping into the mix. How much longer with you travel with firearms? Who would have thought in 1997-2000 when I could walk up to the SAP desk with my hunters and fill the gun forms out which took 2 minutes, including being issued a concealed carry permit for a semi auto handgun. To Where we are now?

The complexity now drives most folks to use a 125.00 gun permit service, and getting a handgun into the country to carry, is not realistic. Getting one to hunt with is possible but a headache unless you have help to get it done.

Please, whether or not you choose to hunt with my company or not, go to Africa now. Just get your stuff together and go. This experience is not forever, there will be 1000's of guys that find themselves looking back and wishing they prioritized things differently.

for the last 11 years I have been having this dream to hunt there with my now 11 year old son . I want him to hunt with me so he can see what his father does, and experience this together. Because of his age, and me working the whole time, he has not yet come with me to camp. I'm worried that by the time he is 14-16 years old and he can really be mature enough to get involved and really enjoy this experience it will be too late to do this with him.

Added to this is the economy of the USA. Fewer and fewer people are pulling the trigger on a 10,000 plus trip. With fewer people the business itself becomes threatened. Our Europe hunters? Yeah right,....Europe economics are swirling the bowl and are even worse then the USA.

Please really think about the priorities in your lives. I'm sure in 2020 I will be posting here again saying "I warned you folks this was coming"





When the hunting stops in


It cannot be said any better, JJ!

I decided to do just what you urge back when I had more money, and things were cheaper. Still, it has always been a real stretch for me to go and go back.

I got a new credit card with a decent limit and used it to make everything happen. I used it, and I've never been sorry for making my dreams reality.

My late father always said we're going on safari sometime, when I have time. His time ran out, but mine didn't.
_________________________
Hunt with Class and Classics

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#7130808 - 12/01/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: luv2safari]
The_Big_Game_Hunter Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Washington
Excellent post JJ. What you just said is sobering and saddens me deeply. While I'm glad I took the time and money to go to Africa when I could, I do feel bad for the people in the future who will never have that opportunity. Africa is a beautiful place and it is a shame that the way things are going, in the future only the super rich will be able to afford to experience it.

It is too bad that the government of Botswana is doing this. Only the president and his cronies will benefit, the poor people and the animals will all suffer the consequences for this decision.
_________________________
Big Game Hunting Adventures
http://www.biggamehuntingadventures.com/
South African & Canadian Hunting Adventures

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#7135194 - 12/02/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: The_Big_Game_Hunter]
paul375 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 434
Loc: U.K.
I wonder if "back handers" have been paid to goverment officials by WWF and other organisations to push this ban through.
I always wondered what they did with all the money they get!

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#7136946 - 12/03/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: paul375]
IndyCA35 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 3596
Loc:
JJ Hack is absolutely right.

Every year it gets harder and harder. I remember when my father went to Tanganyika (now Tanzania) and elephant, lion, leopard, buffalo, and rhino were on the general license. Except for buffalo, most of us are now limited to plains game even with higher fees.

The Africans are multiplying like crazy, and despite all the rhetoric about the game paying for itself, Africans and game don't mix.

South Africa will be the last because of the large ranches owned by Arikaaners. But already their children are leaving the country. They can't get jobs due to affirmative action on steroids. How much longer can this last?

Go now.
_________________________
Liberals think you can do anything you want, as long as the government makes it mandatory.

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#7136959 - 12/03/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: IndyCA35]
Toolelk Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 554
Loc: Montana
Throw in the UN small arms treaty into the mix. One issue will be traveling with ammo. We all need to get involved as this is not going away.

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#7158163 - 12/08/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: Toolelk]
Huntingfool270 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Bakersfield, California
Wow I just got a SCI newsletter saying the samething.

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#7166192 - 12/10/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: Huntingfool270]
LT_DAN Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 355
Loc: south-africa
We got conformation through our hunters body that this ban is only gov land. Private ranches is still fine
_________________________
"Hunting has two brothers shot placemant and penatration"
"If youth is wasted on the young,then Africa is wasted on the Africans"

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#7172867 - 12/12/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: bea175]
Barkoff Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/02/04
Posts: 23938
Loc: Central CA
Originally Posted By: bea175
Only the people of Botswana will suffer from this stupidity of their Government


Sounds familiar.
_________________________







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#7172902 - 12/12/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: Barkoff]
Barkoff Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/02/04
Posts: 23938
Loc: Central CA
JJ, so once the hunter dollars dwindle off, you don't think adjustments will be made to get that industry rolling again?
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#7173604 - 12/12/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: Barkoff]
JJHACK Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 7582
Loc: Touchet Wa. & Ellisras South ...
No, there is to much strife which include affirmative action, land taxes, well taxes, gun regulations, it's crumbling slowly but surely

If Africa is a dream for you, it's time to go. I shudder to think what the next 10 years will bring.
_________________________
www.huntingadventures.net

When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)

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#7176419 - 12/13/12 Re: Botswana to ban hunting [Re: JJHACK]
Barkoff Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/02/04
Posts: 23938
Loc: Central CA
Originally Posted By: JJHACK
No, there is to much strife which include affirmative action, land taxes, well taxes, gun regulations, it's crumbling slowly but surely

If Africa is a dream for you, it's time to go. I shudder to think what the next 10 years will bring.


Well revenue drying up tends to make some rethink their policies....unless you are a CA liberal.
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