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Maybe this isn't quite the correct forum for the question, but it ought to do...

I was trained to keep my right elbow up, more or less horizontal, in the offhand. But I don't recall a reason, besides to form a nice little pocket for the butt. Anyone know a good one?


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Doesn't have to be that way. The rifle has to be a comfortable to hold when in a relaxed state. One of the most important things when shooting offhand (deliberately) is the positioning of the feet and hence the torso.

If your feet were perpendicular to the target your torso would have to twist to the left. When a shot is let off your muscles relax and the shot will wander to the right and usually high as well.

Position your feet, close your eyes, relax, then open them looking through the scope. You'll find you'll we way off windage wise. Adjust your feet accordingly.

Use a sling as well. Hasty does just fine and 10x better than nothing.

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Some guns work best with a high elbow, others not so at all.

There are too many fixed "rules" in shooting positions. I was using a modified sitting position that was the only way I could make it work for me many years ago. Then in the mid 90s it came out to be used by David Tubb also, and called the Tubb sitting position in circles....

You have to make it work for you. Its just about like the BS of pulling the trigger with ONLY the tip of the index finger...


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The "pocket" helps to keep the butt from sliding around and riding on the shoulder bone. Both are important when firing a rifle with noticeable recoil. I learned to shoot with a Model 1903 Springfield, and if that steel butt plate wasn't in the "pocket" properly it made me painfully aware of it. Ultimately, whatever works for you is best. Don't be afraid to experiment.

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Originally Posted by macrabbit
Maybe this isn't quite the correct forum for the question, but it ought to do...

I was trained to keep my right elbow up, more or less horizontal, in the offhand. But I don't recall a reason, besides to form a nice little pocket for the butt. Anyone know a good one?


Oh wait, that wouldn't work for me.....I shoot left handed.... grin wink


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Thanks, all. Up to a point.
It's not that I don't do it or like it; I was trained in it, it's comfortable for me, I do well with it.
I just want to know the rationale for it.

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rationale was that I shot much better with the M14 with high elbow and it helped apply stock pressure to the cheek for me with the high arm.

When transitiioning to the better AR15, I can't use a high elbow, it just doesn't feel right or work well at all with that weapon platform so I roll the gun to my face to make sure it stays there and keep the arm low


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What rifle you shooting?

An AR-15 doesn't need to be in the pocket.

You want to establish the most upright head position that you can and still control the rifle. If it has heavy recoil you are going to have to put it in the pocket.


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Let me rephrase it: What was the accumulated historical reason for it that has made the 'elbow up' conventional wisdom?

Again- this isn't about me and isn't a search for change. I want to know why the old-timers passed it along down the line as simply 'the thing to do'.

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Some guns work best with a high elbow, others not so at all.

I believe Jeff has stated the reason you're looking for. Take a look at the grip configuration over time. The Trapdoor Springfield, Krag and Springfield 03 all had straight grips which necessitated a high elbow to help wrap your thumb around the far side of the grip.

The C stocked Springfield with a pistol grip and subsequently the Garand and M14 allowed for a bit more relaxed elbow...and the M16's full pistol grip almost requires a low elbow position.

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Originally Posted by ChrisF
Take a look at the grip configuration over time. The Trapdoor Springfield, Krag and Springfield 03 all had straight grips which necessitated a high elbow to help wrap your thumb around the far side of the grip.


That sounds good, but I don't quite see it. I just tested with my Monte Carlo and with a mil Springfield. Mounting either with a high elbow certainly guarantees a good 'wrap', but going in low doesn't at all prevent it. (Though I can see how trainers would go for a 'guaranteed' way rather than have to continue correcting those who failed to grasp enough around.)

Citations would help keep the answer out of conjecture and in history.

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The reason for the high elbow was because you were supposed to do most of the "lifting" with your right arm. The left arm only provided minor guidance. In fact, people used to dry fire holding the rifle in the right hand and shoulder only (everything here assumes right handed shooters). At the time, the left hand was not so good for support anyway, because NRA High power rules did not allow the left arm to touch or be supported by the chest.

What changed?

1. This position is not good with rifles having pistol grips, like the AR15.

2. NRA rules allow the left arm to contact the chest.

This is why the high elbow is not used so much today.



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when I still at times shoot our M14s offhand... I still go high, it just fits better for me.


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Originally Posted by IndyCA35
The reason for the high elbow was because you were supposed to do most of the "lifting" with your right arm. The left arm only provided minor guidance.


Say what?!
My left is providing 99% of the support against gravity. My right is pulling slightly into my shoulder but otherwise is dedicated to a clean pull of the trigger.

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Say what?!
My left is providing 99% of the support against gravity.

There were those that would advocate what IndyCA describes, but my sense was it was more individuals or pockets than doctrine. Jim Owens (USMC ret.) describes a stunt that one team shooter would perform for training classes, where he would walk in holding the rifle in the firing position with just his right arm. He acknowledges it had no bearing on a good scoring position.
You're looking for documentation when there might be none available. Time to dig out the old military training manuals, and marksmanship texts.

Why may I ask does it matter on the why?

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High elbow gives you a better trigger pull on rifles like the M14 too. You may not notice the difference until you have dry fired 10,000 times, but it could be the difference between shooting in the 170s and breaking into the 180s.


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Honestly I think its more like the difference between 185ish and 195ish offhand.

170s have a lot of work to do. But admittedly, its all small things combined in the end that keep you moving up the ladder.


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High elbow gives you a better trigger pull on rifles like the M14 too.

I found the opposite. Dropping the elbow a bit allowed for a better trigger position on the '14 for me. ...one of the differences for breaking into the 190's for me before moving over the the '16. After that it was all mental...like how the hell do you shoot a 190 with a 99 and a 91?

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I crawled into the attic, grabbed four books on shooting; no mil manuals, though I'm sure they're here somewhere.
All four prescribed 'elbow up', with only a little more-

Captain Paul Curtis, in Guns and Gunning, noted:
"The right elbow is held a little higher than the horizontal position. When this is permitted to sag, it tends to drag the rifle over or cant it to the right."

And Jack O'Connor, in Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, wrote:
"...your right elbow should be about level with your shoulder and the butt of your rifle against the pad of muscles formed at the shoulder joint. If the steel buttplate is farther inside against your collar bone, the recoil is apt to hurt, and if your right elbow is down toward the waist it is difficult to get your right eye in line with the sights with modern stocks."

Again, I tested. If I mount elbow up and then flap my wing, the gun very obviously rotates. And if I mount it elbow down, the pocket is not comfortably vertical and the rifle wants to sit at a right cant.
I didn't notice any difference in cheek placement or sight line, mounted down. (Sorry, Jack.)


Why on the why- A friend has demonstrated the need for some instruction, some thirty-five years into his shooting career, so I'll soon be out in the hills with him. Although I can give orders without comprehending their reasoning (I spent enough years in middle management!), I'd much rather be able to explain and justify what I say. I learned the position while too young to care, but anymore I want to understand what I'm doing and why; and I like to offer same to those under my tutelage. Plus, the reason will dictate how strongly I insist on performance.
So, this is classroom prep.

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Originally Posted by ChrisF
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High elbow gives you a better trigger pull on rifles like the M14 too.

I found the opposite. Dropping the elbow a bit allowed for a better trigger position on the '14 for me. ...one of the differences for breaking into the 190's for me before moving over the the '16. After that it was all mental...like how the hell do you shoot a 190 with a 99 and a 91?


Easy. You shot a 99 and a 91. Just like I've done more than once....some days its LACK of mental IMHO... or the real case, if you had less mental your score would be much better....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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