Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Barnes vs Partitions vs Ballistic Tips

Going to see for myself here shortly, insofar as a sample of one tell a guy anything. My 7-08 is running the 120 TTSX at roughly 3175 fps. I'm not going to shoot for bone on purpose, just shoot it like I normally do, if possible. Which is to say I'll try to keep the entrance side out of the "meat".

Wicked looking little bastids loaded up, I'll give them that!

So a Barnes 168 tsx @ 2620 makes the same exact channel, expands to the same diameter, etc as the 130 ttsx @ 3100? good to know....

Have I just been lucky that the 5 deer have traveled only an Average of 6 yards?

I punch shoulders when I shoot, if I put a ttsx through both shoulders it ain't going far and might not take a step...
i have a hunting partner that has zapped 6-8 deer with his 243 and used 85gr TSX and 80gr TTSX, he said one of them ran 50 yards or so most were bang flops...

for what its worth here are some of the narrow 130 TTSX "wound channels", i cant imagine deer running for miles with holes like this

168g TTSX from a .308 Win seem to work fine on antelope, as do 100g from a .257 Roberts.

SAKO,

My experience on a LOT more than 5 animals is the same as Formidilosus's.

You can indeed compensate for the smaller wound channel of hard bullets to a certain extent, but softer bullets will still kill more quickly on average. And I have seen deer punched through the "shoulders" (a pretty broad definition) with a TSX got a lot further than 20 yards.

One example: My wife and I spent considerable time one evening looking for a mule deer buck she'd shot through both shoulders with a 100-grain TSX from .257 Roberts. The muzzle velocity was 3150 fps and the range only 50 yards, so it didn't lack for zip. Yet the deer stagged off through sage taller than itself for around 75 yards before going down. There wasn't a blood trail, contrary to what we often hear about TSX's, and it took 45 minutes of spiraling the area where the deer had been shot to find it.

MD


I first posted in this thread because i didnt feel it was a fair comparison in wound channel size when comparing 168 mono vs a 168 cup and core. we all know monos expand more reliably/violently when the speed is higher and/or bone is impacted.
I'm not stating that Barnes bullets make the biggest would channel or kill as "quick" as a VLD.
But I'm not buying that a 168 tsx at 2600 makes the same would channel as a 130 @ 3100...
Or a 110 at 3350

Am I wrong?


http://www.shootingillustrated.com/mobile/article.php?id=463

Based on the Info below... Same bullet with different impact speed changes size of wound channel and penetration.


"The most important bullet characteristics with regard to terminal performance are expansion, weight retention, penetration and wounding qualities. Without knowing these, you are pretty much shooting in the dark as to bullet suitability for a particular game species and downrange performance. To test these traits across a spectrum of muzzle and impact velocities, I shot sample 130-grain TTSX bullets through a .300 Whisper, a .308 Winchester and a .300 Weatherby Magnum into Bullet Test Tubes with Extenders at 25 yards.

With a muzzle velocity of 2,013 fps, through the .300 Whisper the TTSX expanded to .541 inch, retained 129.2 grains of its weight, penetrated 14 3/4 inches and produced a .667-inch-wide wound channel. At a similar velocity, the TSX expanded to .439 inch, weighed 130 grains, penetrated 13 1/2 inches but veered severely off course at the 6-inch mark while creating a .638-inch-wide wound channel.

Propelled through the .308 Winchester at 2,878 fps, the new bullet enlarged to .614 inch, kept 129.3 grains of its weight, pierced 15 inches into the media and formed a 2-inch-wide wound channel. The most punishing evaluation came when I launched the TTSX from the .300 Weatherby Magnum at 3,562 fps. It penetrated all 20 inches of Test Tube and Extender and exited, but not before leaving a 2.371-inch-wide wound channel and shedding a single, 11.8-grain petal at the 11 1/2-inch mark. It�s possible to argue the recovered bullet weight would be between 117.3 and 117.6 grains. "


so here is the results
130 TTSX
speed---- expansion --- penetration-- would channel
2013 --- .541" --- 14.75" -- .667"
2878 --- .614" --- 15" -- 2.00"
3562 --- n/a --- 20"+ -- 2.371"



also MD, your story involves the TSX like this post does.... I submit the ttsx is a different animal as indiacted by the hollow point difference below


130 TTSX with polymer tip pulled out.

On the right is a 168gr TSX. I would rather shoot the 130 TTSX at deer based on this picture

SAKO,

Oh, I agree that TTSX's expand more reliably and a little wider than TSX's, which is why I've switched to plastic-tipped monolithics like the TTSX, E-Tip, etc., when I decide to use that sort of bullet anymore.

But the TTSX still doesn't make a bigger hole than a TSX of the same size that expands completely. There's a limit on how much damage a monolithic bullet will do when they don't shed any weight. Velocity has some effect, but as much in bullets that lose some weight.

The same thing can be said to a certain extent of Berger VLD's. I haven't seen all that much difference in the huge amount of damage they do at normal hunting ranges, whether the animal is under 100 yards away or 400, regardless of whether the bulleyt is driven at 2700 or 3200 fps. They all make a BIG hole in the innards. Now, beyond 400 the amount of interior damage drops off a little, but not nearly as much as with a harder bullet.

Thanks MD

I personally haven't between me and my hunting partner seen the need to switch from the ttsx....
It doesn't always leave huge blood trails despite always having exited for us... As you know sometimes the skin covers the hole but I haven't had to look for the couple deer that weren't bang flops.

Now If I was shooting long range. I'd use a soft bullet like a vld or BT but in close I like driving a light ttsx as fast as its accurate... I know it will penetrate no matter what and reach the vitals no matter what

SAKO75 �

Like you, I�ve seen no reason to switch to fragile, thin-skinned bullets like the VLD or A-MAX. Even on antelope the TTSX have proven to be rapid expanders with most going straight down. (I did have one make it about 25 yards, by far the most any have gone after being hit.)

Of the last 4 deer I�ve killed with TTSX or MRX, the one this year made it the furthest � and that was only a few steps. The rest went straight down on the shot. One was shot facing and the bullet went full length with an exit.

No big blood trails, but you don�t need them when the animals don�t go more than a few steps. Here�s a pic of this year�s buck, 180g MRX, taken at maybe 50 yards. The blood shows the exit hole.



Entrance�


Exit�


This year�s cow, shot at 399 yards with a 180g MRX, stayed up for just a few seconds and made maybe 15 yards. This pic shows the exit side:



The question for me is not so much what bullet will drop them faster on a perfect broadside, and in many cases the difference is vanishingly small at best. My primary concern is what happens when things don�t go as planned. Give me a bullet that works very well when things go right but has what it takes to reach deep when needed.

The discussion you and MD are having is precisely why I stick with Partitions when MV's are below 2700 and calibers under say 33(or Hornady Interlock in my 06 ONLY). Last month I shot an Axis with a 100gr TTSX out of a 257 Weatherby at 3700 fps and about 125 and the exit hole clear expansion, internals were jellied and the kill instantaneous. Then again I obtained similar results from the 100gr Interlock only exit holes were few and far between and no doubt their rapid expansion/disintegration often-times results in quicker kills. Same for the 7WBY, and 300 WBY and H&H mags.

Still, I made my decision to switch to TTSXs in all my calibers except on those occassions where the use of Premium cup and core are a sounder choice, like for leopards for instance. In my double I stuck with Woodleighs but have since switched to the CEB Monos. The other reason I switched is because at least in my experience, T/TTSXs have been the most consistenly accurate bullets I've ever used across all my rifles.

Jorge

What do you think of a 308 launching a 110 ttsx at 3300-3400?

I think it's deadly, but the BC will kill it on longer shots, and expansion suffer. I'd rather launch a 130 personally.

Better yet, in a 6.5mm

Agree w/above, I'd rather have a bullet that will work when chips are down and you get a less than optimal shot w/a bullet that is on the 'softish' side.

For deer, the Ballistic tip is a fine bullet, run them often in 243 and 6BR to deadly effect, and have run 140s in 7/08s. I think a 'mono' can be deadly and ruin less meat, yet for lungs broadside, most cup/cores work fine.

Soft targets = softer bullets IMHO. When I launch a mono, it will be thru shoulders, etc. before getting into vitals, unless not possible. Most any bullet short of an FMJ thru lungs will kill fine, some quicker than others.

BTW, re: penetration on an angling shot on deer, I was shocked shooting a good sized WT buck years ago w/a 338/06.

200 gr Ballistic Tip, 2910 mv - chronied.
Range 25 yds
Shot - from a ladder stand - angling down
Hit - back of ribs high thru lungs, etc, busting off shoulder

Deer jumped about 3 leaps and down.

Bullet STOPPED on offside under hide. Weighed 120gr IIRC.

Was that a bullet failure? Not in my book. I am confident a partition or mono would have punched thru, but it did not matt

in mono's, since they dont fragment and send shrapnel everywhere, i prefer bigger bore... .308 + expansion (thats why speed is key) might expand to around .65" whereas a .260 + Expansion probably wont expand as wide thus might not create as wide of wound channel....were splitting hairs but wider wound channel is wider wound channel

also i agree no distance for me with the ttsx out of a 308, it cant launch the ones with a good BC fast enough...softer bullets with better BC for distance

down in GA, i rarely shoot more than 200 yards and lately its been a 100 or less when i get in thick spots where i see more deer

Sako: I'm sure it would be ok on deer sized animals, but there has to be a point in the equation where diminishing returns are reached. Personally I draw the line at 168gr in the 30 cals, 100 in the 25s,210 in the 33s, 270 in the 375s, 350 in the 416s and 450 in the 458s, etc.

No replacemtn for displacement IMHO. And by that I mean be suited for the worst task you may have at hand.

Having seen cup and core come apart, and even stop on small critters like 50 pound pigs, the only bullet I"ll trust any more is one by Barnes. Even the partition has left me scratching my head more than a few times.

For specific tasks about any bullet could do, but when I want to load one in the chamber that covers anything that I feel the need to pull the trigger on and have a positive outcome... Barnes gets the nod. Simple as that. When you see others not able to penetrate stem to stern on 150 pound deer, you tend think differently.

Though ideally one could argue for what you do in fur bullets, fast and fragile, gets in far enough, explodes and has NO exit. IE dead, and no meat loss.

Sako - under YOUR conditions, I'd have to question, what would happen if your 100 TTSX in 30cal hits any brush enroute, at such hi-vel, vs a heavier slower longer bullet?

I don't know, but outside of that, the 100 TSX should give a high shock value I would assume at such great speed. The Hydrostatic shock alone would surely do massive tissue damage i.e. lungs, etc. w/o any bone being hit, if you like to shoot lungs.

BTW, all equal, a larger dia bullet pre n post fired, gives a larger wound channel no doubt.

Let us know how that 100 works, b/c I think you aim to try it I have no doubt it will do just fine, I just wouldn't want to hit any brush at that velocity, so that would be my only comment, but do endorse given your range.

Hola John,
When shooting VLDs, what do you think is more important in order to produce the better killing effect, mass or velocity?
In other words, in my 7x65R which one would you shoot at mountain game at distances in the 350-550 yards range, 140gr at 3,100fps or 168gr at 2,800?
Muchas gracias,
Alvaro

Hi Alvaro,

To tell the truth, I dunno if mass matters as much with Berger Hunting VLD's as it does with high-weight-retention bullets. All the Bergers penetrate 2-3 inches before starting to expand, and do a lot of interior damage, whether the bullet is aa 115-grain .25 or a 185-grain .30.

The real advantage in extra weight is higher ballistic coefficient, which reduces wind drift and increases impact velocity on longer shots. At 500 yards the 168 will be going the same velocity as the 140, and beyond that will be faster.

What are you launching those 180 MRXs from? .308, .30-06, .300 Mag?

Thx,
Expat

Ruger .300WM, 3033fps.

Not many left now so will switch to TTSX as I've had to do with some other rifles/weights.