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Originally Posted by 458Win
The difference between the 375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are almost identical to the differences between the 300 H&H and the .300 Win Mag.

Alaskans are voting with their pocket books and the Ruger is currently outselling the ancient H&H by a wide margin and a number of astute African PH's are also discovering the benefits of the Ruger as well.



I wonder, just how much the available rifles, in type and cost, influence this trend in purchasing? I think that the solid, ugly, but, highly effective and functional Ruger Alaskan for a "workin' man's" price has and will have a LOT to do with this.

I would be happy, here in BC, working alone in the mountains, for extended periods, with either round in a rifle modded to my specs. and I suspect that most here who have shot both, will tend to feel much the same.

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Originally Posted by krummarine
thank you for weighing in, Mr. Shoemaker. As someone who has repeatedly, "been there, done that", I value your opinion greatly on this board.

BobinNH; you're a good writer, but that doesn't mean your points are valid. You can cling to your old beliefs to your hearts content but don't be afraid to grasp modern technology and design.


krummarine thanks for the advise. grin I will try to remember it.let me repeat...I had one already...I got rid of it, failing to be mesmerized by the "advantages"... frown

Why don't you tell me what advantages it holds for me? confused

I would not have engaged you to the extent that I did except that I thought you were a bit depracating towards older folks, and older cartridges under the mistaken belief that, because you recently "discovered" the 375 Ruger,that it was somehow something "new" and technologically superior, which it clearly ain't....but this seems to have zipped right over your l'il ole noggin'.....which...to me...by now,isn't coming as much of a surprise. frown

I was merely pointing out to you ( or trying to), that it is most assuredly not "new" and is based on a design fully as old as the H&H case itself.This seems hard for you to grasp...

It really isn't my fault that you do not know this.So to feign superior intellect because you are using a "newer" cartridge,and proclaim the 375H&H as ready for the bone yard in the face of the 375 Ruger because it's "new" technology,is not only intellectually dishonest, it is downright ....hilarious. cry

And the notion the H&H needs vindication from me or anyone else is equally amusing smile

That extra 100-150 fps in velocity that you seem to proclaim as setting it apart from the old derelict H&H cartridge is easily achieved by simply blowing the old Holland case out to 375AI or 375 Weatherby....both of which I played with likely before you were born.(not that the extree velocity matters a whit in terminal performance.Ask a few million animals).....and with that as a given,the 375 Ruger holds no mystique for me.You may be mesmerized by it....all I can do is stifle a yawn... tired

I have no doubt, as Phil Shoemaker says, that they sell a bunch of 375 Rugers in Alaska;the rifles are cheap,they work forever,are bomb proof and reliable,and the cartridge is a good one(although hardly singular and unique to any degree).See above.But I am still willing to bet a beer that there are far more 375H&H's in Africa and Alaska combined, than there are 375 Rugers. wink

And yet I know of one well known brown bear outfitter who(if memory serves)had D'Arcy Echols build him a splendid M70 outfitted with a peep sight for use in Alaska.....it was not chambered for the 375Ruger....it was the 375 H&H. cool

I seem to recall that Darcy built one 375 Ruger and had the devils time getting it to feed,although because D'Arcy is so really good, he got it done....

Anyway I wish you the best of luck with your 375 Ruger and hope it alleviates your handicap....it's a terrible burden moving the bolt a few fractions of an inch further to the rear with the Holland case.....most normal people don't find this a terrible ordeal frown

The day may come when the Ruger overtakes the H&H cartridge in widespread use....but it isn't gonna happen in your lifetime. wink




Last edited by BobinNH; 12/16/12.



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Between the rifles listed and nostalgia aside, I would go with the Ruger Alaskan. I spent quite a bit of money to have a .375 H&H built on a Mauser that basically matched what Ruger introduced as a factory rifle a few years later. I love my Mauser and am not planning to buy a .375 Ruger, but given the choice today, I would save some dollars for a hunt and go Ruger. The Ruger package, including the more compact cartridge, is just a nicer hunting rifle than factory H&Hs.

Given that American hunters seem to be using the Ruger cartridge, I expect any ammo concerns will correct itself with a little time. On the other hand, if the nostalgia of hunting with an old cartridge is REALLY important to you, you may want to go H&H.

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Bob, i had an H&H, went to Africa with it and took ten PG with eleven shots. It weighed 8.5 lbs as aimed, was accurate, effective, and I loved it. Got home and decided to do some changing around with my other safe residents which involved trading/selling some off including the H&H and a semi-custom 340 Wby.

But I soon realized that I missed a bigger, longer range chambering that I had in the 340. The new 250-TTSX 375 bullet put me back to looking 375 again but without the bill of a semi-custom as I'm a lefty and I didn't care for the size, and heft of the CZ. Thus I came to the Ruger African in a lefty, had the barrelled- action glass-bedded, the trigger worked, and had an extra "recoil crossbar" added. Then ordered a McM for it.

Like in talking cartridges, in anesthesia you learn a lot of theoretical stuff the practical ramifications of which you rarely see in practice. That's probably the case here too. The H&H's legacy will always be there and if the best the Ruger ever does is just equal the H&H out of the blocks, that's pretty good. Can't go wrong with either one which really means the rifle's the thing. Which means the fit, function, weight and likability of it for the hunter is much more significant than any differences between these two cartridges. Just the view from here anyway.

Last edited by George_De_Vries_3rd; 12/16/12.
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Ayup, exactly and I have to compliment Bob on his humour and knowledge of the facts of this issue.

I prefer my .338WM and 9.3x62 rigs to any of the .375s and am not about to rush out, as several I know did, buy a Ruger Alaskan in .375R. and then, after about 20 rounds fired, trade or sell it for a couple of reasons.

This sort of weekend gack is lots of fun, but, I will bet that the .375H&H is still killing game and being debated when all of us are the "dust to which thou shalt return"! smile

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George I hear you and don't recall saying the cartridge is no good,nor that it doesn't offer people more choices...if it didn't look good to me, I would not have bought one myself. grin

As it turns out I simply did not need the "new" technology....getting a light fast handling 375H&H is no more difficult than screwing a light tube(#4) to an action and sticking it in a FG stock....I did it 30+ years ago,and can't help it if it took the factories 30+ years to catch up.

I simply find it amusing when some young guy gets on here, and starts lecturing everyone about the "advancements"of the "new technology",proclaims it "superior",and the points to a 100 year old case design as "proof".... grin







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You mean we are the old guys here? grin

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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

You mean we are the old guys here? grin


You know he wasn't talking about me laugh whistle...But I do like the slick as snot feeding H&H. I'll just leave it at that... wink


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
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You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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No disrespect meant to anyone on this board; young or old. Especially BobinNH; he articulates his points in such a way as to preclude much argument and I admire that.

Another gentleman started this post asking what 375 to buy and a torrent of replies leaned towards the 375HH; a fine, proven round, as I have stipulated but certainly, not the only, nor in my opinion the best in terms of efficiency or velocity.

I own two 375R's; one is a custom Ruger built for me by a talented gunsmith in NC and another is a stock Alaskan that I just picked up from another good guy on this board. they both shoot, feed and cycle with no problems; can't understand an expert like Darcy having problems; I also used to have a push feed model built on a Vanguard action and it had zero issues as well. I sold it to a guy who plans to take it to Africa next year.

BobinNH: just because the 375R originated with an older case, doesn't mean it's not "new" New design, better propellents, and certainly better bullets are used than when that original case came about.

Here's to cold beer and cartridge discussions; hope they are both around for a long time.

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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

You mean we are the old guys here? grin


Haha! Yeah!!

Only thing is some of the "old guys" have had 8 pound(scoped)375's,for over 30 years(A Ruger African with scope weighs 9 pounds. Like I said,I had one),and have been pushing 250 gr Bitterroots and other 250's at 2900+ fps,out of them for the same time frame without a hitch.Those oldtimers kurmarine like to throw digs at were building light 375's with wood stocks back in the 50's....guys like Shelhammer and Biesen built them,and they weighed about 9 pounds on the button.just like the Ruger Hawkeye.

It has been maybe twenty years since a pal and I figured out that 250 load shoots just as flat to 400 yards as a 340 with a 210 Partition(actual shooting with our rifles).

When the Ruger cartridge and rifle came out I tought..."Well thats pretty neat...it will do a bit better than the Holland and the rifle is well built and designed....about what we've been building for 3 decades". grin

But just because its commonly available today to the masses at a cheap price, doesn't mean its "better"....its just more "available". smile




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George below is a PM I received from a member here who does not post,and edited to protect his identity,and delete general conversation....The load he was using in the 375H&H involved RL15 and the 250 gr TTSX.His rifle was a lightweight Sako.I thought you'd find it interesting. wink

..in any event if there is anything deficient,antiquated, or outdated about the on game performance of the 375H&H in this instance,that can be materially exceeded by the 375 Ruger, I would like to know what that is....I would expect result from the Ruger to be the same.

And BTW I did say the H&H data in the Barnes manual, seemed fine to me. smile



"......I'm getting amazing accuracty and tragectory with these loads. I've shot one elk with this combo. It was a long, long shot at about a 30-40 degree down angle, which helped. I think the shot was 500+ yards, because my laser range finder couldn't read it, and it was easily double the 200 yards I normally shoot at the range. Foruntately, I had a bolder in front of me to rest on, so I held at the top of her back and squeezed the trigger on my Sako 75. The sound 'Whack', like the sound of a baseball being hit in the majors was almost as impressive as the rifle's report, and it was over.

The shot wasn't perfect. I hit her a little high and through the shoulder. The entrance was 1/2" as you'd expect, but the exit was massive (fist size). Both shoulders were smashed and bone fragments went out the exit wound. The off side leg/shoulder was so bad that I didn't even bother packing it out - all blood shot. She went right down and that was it - not even a step.

Do you think the data in the Barnes book for Reloader 15 is accurate? They list 77gr max for the 270gr bullet and 80.5gr max for the 235gr bullet. I'm thinking they swapped the .375 Ruger data with the .375 H&H data by accident because the Ruger cartridge under performs and has lower charges than the H&H in their manual.

Thanks again for your time and advice....."





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Originally Posted by 458Win
The difference between the 375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are almost identical to the differences between the 300 H&H and the .300 Win Mag.

Alaskans are voting with their pocket books and the Ruger is currently outselling the ancient H&H by a wide margin and a number of astute African PH's are also discovering the benefits of the Ruger as well.


Phil-this is just me but I'll hazard a guess that it's more about the price point and the package than it is about the round. Thoughts?

Personally I like the package that the 77/375 Ruger has to offer but it's very hard for me to find a factory 375 that I'd even remotely consider toting as it comes from the factory. The 700 XCR is the only exception to this that I can think of.

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Can't help specifically as my pick is not on your list, the ZKK-602.

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Thanks Bob. Yes, of particular interest is the Barnes listing your correspondent mentioned--a max of 77 grains of R15 for a 270 grainer. I can tell you I worked up to 73 grs of R15 in my Ruger under the 260-gr Accubd and that was as close to the firewall as I care to be--faint ejector extrusion and a stubborn bolt; it was too hot for the 250-gr TTSX too, tens grains less but just as long a shank or perhaps a bit longer with the same 'ol signs. For others that read this, I would suspect that load listing until proven otherwise and the usual "work up slowly."

That said I enivision these portable 375s of any species (though I'm not certain what he meant about the "Ruger under performs" comment) very good at long range like mentioned and even better today with these sleek 250- and 260- and up- bullets. I am planning a spring spot 'n stalk mountain bear hunt next year and am considering taking the Ruger.

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yea, QL shows a 270 gr TSX over 77 gr RE 15 to yield 2950 fps @ 82K+ psi from a 24" H&H.

Alliant lists 71 grains and Speer 260 gr but doesn't list pressures on their web site


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Originally Posted by toad
yea, QL shows a 270 gr TSX over 77 gr RE 15 to yield 2950 fps @ 82K+ psi from a 24" H&H.

Alliant lists 71 grains and Speer 260 gr but doesn't list pressures on their web site


I'm not too concrened about the load data....I shoot 77 gr with the 250 for over 2900 fps.My Krieger will not take those Barnes charges and no sense trying.But that doesn't mean nothing will.... smile

Last year,a pal worked up to 77 gr RL15 with the 270TSX in a 25" pre 64 M70 barrel for a bit under 2800 fps.I sat at the chronograph and watched the process with him. The rifle went to BC last year for grizzly,elk and mule deer(Got a grizz and mule deer with it).....I am not surprised since pre 64 M70 375 barrels are notorious for being "over sized" through the grooves and taking heavier charges. We have miked a few.

Other barrels will take lower charges....another reason I can't look at things like Quick Load and believe it.It simply is not universally applicable across the board.

The point that might be gleaned in all this discussion above,is that the new "magic" cases appearing now and then,resurected from the past, with a rush of publicity gets everybody all goosy and reaching for the check books,but the "real" magic is in the propellants and the bullets we have today.Not to say any of this is bad,just not as revolutionary as some think.

Last edited by BobinNH; 12/17/12.



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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

You mean we are the old guys here? grin


Haha! Yeah!!

Only thing is some of the "old guys" have had 8 pound(scoped)375's,for over 30 years(A Ruger African with scope weighs 9 pounds. Like I said,I had one),and have been pushing 250 gr Bitterroots and other 250's at 2900+ fps,out of them for the same time frame without a hitch.Those oldtimers kurmarine like to throw digs at were building light 375's with wood stocks back in the 50's....guys like Shelhammer and Biesen built them,and they weighed about 9 pounds on the button.just like the Ruger Hawkeye.

It has been maybe twenty years since a pal and I figured out that 250 load shoots just as flat to 400 yards as a 340 with a 210 Partition(actual shooting with our rifles).

When the Ruger cartridge and rifle came out I tought..."Well thats pretty neat...it will do a bit better than the Holland and the rifle is well built and designed....about what we've been building for 3 decades". grin

But just because its commonly available today to the masses at a cheap price, doesn't mean its "better"....its just more "available". smile


Bob, you mention Shelhammer here. I was given an Oct 1954 American Rifleman which has an article by John George about " Three Little Rifles "...one of which was his 375 H&H by Shelhammer. Barrel was cut down to 22 inches and turned down to reduce weight. Lyman Alaskan scope ( something he used effectively during WW2). Shelhammer stock with a shorter than normal butt to be able to work the bolt from the shoulder. Also, it was not equipped with a recoil pad, but rather a solid Neidner model. Rifle action was a Winchester mod 70. He called it a "featherweight" in the article. I don't believe he gave a precise weight for the piece.

Another short and light weight 375 H&H was built by Fred Wells on an 8MM Mauser bring back from WW2. It had a 20 inch tube and a Lyman 2x scope. Apparently it was his loaner for people that didn't have a 375 but needed one. They nicknamed it the "Beast". It had much dangerous game to it's credit. Read about it here... Boatman blog

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Dave: You nailed it....John George's lightweight 375H&H by Shelhammer was precisely the rifle I was refering to.... wink He had a second one in 300H&H built pretty much the same way.

Another noteworthy guy who built a similar rifle was John Jobson of Sports Afield.He had Al Biesen turn down the barrel of a M70 375 and cut it off to 23",(likely copying George's rifle)and had it stocked by Biesen as well.The finished product was 9 pounds(the weight of 375 Ruger African). Jobson used it both here in North America and in Tanzania to take buffalo and elephant among other animals.

This was common practice because even back then folks found that M70's could be on the heavy side,and many were turned down and lightened by savy guys.The Ruger African is a faithful reproduction of those rifles and the biggest factor in the weight of the rifle is the contour of the barrel,and the slim dimensions of the stock.the action has next to nothing to do with it.

Current Winchester 375's are still too damned heavy; no need for it at all and if you end up with a heavy 375H&H its your owned damned fault. smile




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My Echols stocked 375 is 9lbs on the nose all up as they say and it is quite comfortable to shoot and carry.


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I agree about most 375s being too heavy including the Win model 70s. Perhaps this is due to the traditional view among American shooters that the 375s with their African success are BIG cartridges and should be in BIG guns. My experience which is not very deep with the 375 unless I include shooting a 340 for twenty years is that for me a range of 7.75-8.5 lbs max is just fine.

Even my R African could have a slimmer barrel for my tastes. I'm hoping my McM stock will shave a few ounces more.

Last edited by George_De_Vries_3rd; 12/17/12.
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