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#7192896 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: model70man]
Toddly Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: West by God Virginia
Originally Posted By: model70man
I have had to learn the hard way many times. Fortunately I hope that some wisdom has came with my older age. My friend RAS can tell you some of my horror stories I have confessed to him.
if it helps your pain any, I bought a 7mm pre 64 that was sold as original. It was not, it was what most would make in a few months.

This is why I will always shy away from rare calibers, they say there are more fakes than originals.

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#7193696 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: Toddly]
rifle Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 5717
Loc: now in SC
That's true,no need to fake a .270/.30-06,but a .35 Rem,.300 Sav,9mm or 7.65,there is money to be made and it's been done and their still floating around to the UN-knowing with money...
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#7193721 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: rifle]
Whitebird Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/20/09
Posts: 730
Originally Posted By: rifle
Ol Dave will build one for ya,if he don't have in stock...
Let's leave it at that....


wink...... +1

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#7193750 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: Whitebird]
BobinNH Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30697
Originally Posted By: Whitebird
Originally Posted By: rifle
Ol Dave will build one for ya,if he don't have in stock...
Let's leave it at that....


wink...... +1



+2....BTDT.

To the OP....just my opinion but 98-99% finish and condition is nice, but hard to find and generally the purview of the collector types,of which i am most assuredly not one.I don't want one that is abused either, but I look for "good" condition and sound mechanics, mostly meaning no one has screwed with them,particularly the metal,and a barrel in great shape.

They are very durable rifles,good for a lifetime of use and one that has been cared for, but hunted,can be a bargain at the right price and will out last you,and your grandkids will be hunting with it.No need to box yourself into a corner.If buying it to hunt I wouldn't pass one up that is in 99% condition but I'm not gonna worry about getting one either.
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You can't say very much on here without pissing at least SOMEBODY off-get used to it.

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#7194998 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: BobinNH]
gunswizard Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 4608
Many of the high condition Model 70's are in the hands of collectors, those in the big dealer's displays at major gunshows should be viewed as suspect to have been "doctored". I traveled the gunshow circuit with some of these dealers and have first hand knowledge of their chicanery. There was an individual at that time that had barrel rollmarking dies and could provide these dealers with any rare caliber barrel they wanted. There were many bogus 7.65 and 9mm rifles showing up at that time. In recent times the "parts whores" are tearing down every M/70 they can get their hands on, selling component parts for outrageous prices. There also appears to be an effort at reproducing stocks, don't know the details on this one. Many "custom" Super Grade" stocks showing up, the word custom being used to avoid calling them original. Why would anyone go to the effort to have a custom stock made and have it be a very close copy of an original? Just doesn't make sense. As previous posters have advised, handle as many known original rifles as possible. that's the only way to be able to spot those that are non-original.

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#7195179 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: gunswizard]
baberuth43 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 12
I looked at a really gorgeous one today at a local shop, but the stock looked had a couple spots where the finish was thicker. The orinigal finishes on these guns where supposed to bfe good correct? The stock was very clean except for a couple dings and nicks here and there. I walked away never the less because of the finish issue

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#7195689 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: baberuth43]
Horseman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 1416
Loc: Midwest
Some of the factory finishes weren't always perfect. I own and have owned several pre 64's with light sanding marks and even small runs in the lacquer. I've seen this less on M70's and more on bolt rimfires of the time, but I have M70's with these blems as well. They were never made to be collectors pieces, but built by hand. The advice given about handling as many known originals as you can is the best way to know what you're looking at.

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#7195779 - 12/17/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: Horseman]
gunswizard Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 4608
The way I spot a reblue is to look at the WP proofmark, these were applied after the rifle was blued. Therefore they were not buffed over, you should be able to feel the raised edge of the impression when you run a fingernail across it. Smooth edges of the proofmark impression are indicative of its having been buffed over prior to a reblue.

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#7196097 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: baberuth43]
pal Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 4328
Loc: so cal
Originally Posted By: baberuth43
Hey I'm really interested in buying a pre64 m70. First off i cant hardly find any that look like there in good condition or good enough for my taste (98-99%). I know for this condition range I will have to fork out a large roll of cash but oh well. So if anyone can tell me some maybe less traveled auction sites that might have one, it would be much appreciated. I would also thank anyone that can give me some pointers on how to tell if the bluing has been redone, or if the stock has been refinished,or pointers on catching some of the less obvious things like correct butt plate, LOP, esc. Than you for reading.


8 posts and a 97% pre-'64 isn't good enough for you. laugh
_________________________
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon

"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg


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#7196163 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: pal]
Horseman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 1416
Loc: Midwest
WTF does post count have to do with anything? Time spent on a fourm has nothing to do with the quality of rifle he wants.

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#7196443 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: Horseman]
pal Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 4328
Loc: so cal
New member comes along; only a brand new pre-'64 is good enough for him. He can't find any in good enough condition and wants to know where they're all hiding. Doesn't have a care about spending a fortune. And doesn't know what to look for.

So much for your sense of humor.
_________________________
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon

"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg


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#7196536 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: pal]
Horseman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 1416
Loc: Midwest
The fact that he's asking ??'s and doesn't know what to look for is a valid reason for thinking he's new to collecting. Post count doesn't mean chit. Lotsa folks in internetland have huge post counts cause they spend more time typing than doing, and plenty of posts with little or no substance. Post count don't mean chit. grin

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#7197397 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: baberuth43]
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 21214
Loc: Orygun
Originally Posted By: baberuth43
I looked at a really gorgeous one today at a local shop, but the stock looked had a couple spots where the finish was thicker. The orinigal finishes on these guns where supposed to bfe good correct? The stock was very clean except for a couple dings and nicks here and there. I walked away never the less because of the finish issue


Bubba, my most original pre 64 was the first one I bought. It came from a verified first owner. The finish sucked and was flaking, I took the stock off and sold it on ebay for $360.00 and went with a nice shooter stock that I picked up cheap....Dumb on my part if I were a collector, but I'm more of a shooter/hunter/collector type...Read my first post about telephone pole finish buddy..... wink
_________________________
Originally Posted By: raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.


BSA

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#7198231 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: bsa1917hunter]
baberuth43 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 12
Ok so that clears up the stock question... The gun also had its rear sights filed on a little it also a small gouge taken out right bellow the sights but the marks wernt silver... Which makes me think the barrel has been reblued since they was made. Any thoughts on this? And thanks agin for the replies guys I'm learning a lot

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#7198504 - 12/18/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: baberuth43]
TheOldTree Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 2695
Loc: ny adirondacks
Do not buy a model 70 unless it has a good clean history, or you can verify where it's been. Of course it is the quickest way to get an education; jumping in.

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#7200965 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: TheOldTree]
baberuth43 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 12
How would you know if its had a clean history or not? I mean I didn't think there was anyway of knowing on a used gun

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#7201460 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: baberuth43]
Toddly Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: West by God Virginia
Originally Posted By: baberuth43
How would you know if its had a clean history or not? I mean I didn't think there was anyway of knowing on a used gun
your right, really no way to know for sure. I have never seen runs in a factory finish on the wood.

I don't buy 70's once they went to plastic butt plates. So it's easy to tell if metal plate with widows peak is original. You really need to be proficient at spotting a reblue and it won't take to long once you handle some originals. After that learn to recognize wood to metal fit. When they start switching out parts the fit goes to hell, unless they are real good at forgery....(then you have to go back and look at wood finish).

Last would still be to really look close at rare cals and super grades. The super grade needs to first have a proper front sight, then fit and finish comes in. It's really like taking a college class in m70s. And you can still learn after 20 years. Hope that doesn't scare you.

Once you go into the super grades , know the type of cheek piece for your serial no. Learn to always pull the bolt out and check the scribbled no on the bolt and make sure it matches the guns serial no!

Don't let hang tags convince you of originality. The hang tags are now being forged. If the gun has a butt pad and its not a magnum caliber I will usually walk away since I want a stock that's not been cut.

Once you see extra holes drilled in the side of the receiver for a side mount scope, there no collector value.

I could write a book, buts its already been written. Roger Rule wrote it. Buy " the Riflemans Rifle" and read it cover to cover. Then in six months re read it!

Then and only then should you start to plop down big cash for some of the stuff ,

I do like the pre 64 .458 African for investment because they are very difficult to fake and they didn't make very many. $$$$$

Good luck!,!!!,


Edited by Cartod (12/19/12)

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#7201583 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: bsa1917hunter]
Bushmaster1313 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1540
I would look for a 1950's featherweight in a popular caliber.
If you don't like it, someone else will!

A full size gun in .30-06 might be hard to sell, unless it is from the 30's or 40's and in very good condition.


Edited by Bushmaster1313 (12/19/12)

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#7201653 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: baberuth43]
pal Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 4328
Loc: so cal
Originally Posted By: baberuth43
How would you know if its had a clean history or not? I mean I didn't think there was anyway of knowing on a used gun


Best way is to buy from the original owner or a reputable re-seller.

But if you're going to shoot it, why pay such a premium for high finish?

Here's my $700 FWT .30-06

_________________________
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon

"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg


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#7201654 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: Toddly]
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 21214
Loc: Orygun
Originally Posted By: Cartod
Originally Posted By: baberuth43
How would you know if its had a clean history or not? I mean I didn't think there was anyway of knowing on a used gun
your right, really no way to know for sure. I have never seen runs in a factory finish on the wood.

I don't buy 70's once they went to plastic butt plates. So it's easy to tell if metal plate with widows peak is original. You really need to be proficient at spotting a reblue and it won't take to long once you handle some originals. After that learn to recognize wood to metal fit. When they start switching out parts the fit goes to hell, unless they are real good at forgery....(then you have to go back and look at wood finish).

Last would still be to really look close at rare cals and super grades. The super grade needs to first have a proper front sight, then fit and finish comes in. It's really like taking a college class in m70s. And you can still learn after 20 years. Hope that doesn't scare you.

Once you go into the super grades , know the type of cheek piece for your serial no. Learn to always pull the bolt out and check the scribbled no on the bolt and make sure it matches the guns serial no!

Don't let hang tags convince you of originality. The hang tags are now being forged. If the gun has a butt pad and its not a magnum caliber I will usually walk away since I want a stock that's not been cut.

Once you see extra holes drilled in the side of the receiver for a side mount scope, there no collector value.

I could write a book, buts its already been written. Roger Rule wrote it. Buy " the Riflemans Rifle" and read it cover to cover. Then in six months re read it!

Then and only then should you start to plop down big cash for some of the stuff ,

I do like the pre 64 .458 African for investment because they are very difficult to fake and they didn't make very many. $$$$$

Good luck!,!!!,


Excellent advice right there guys....I'd have to add that if you aren't a serious collector but want to learn about the model 70's then buy the paperback version of Rules book, "The rifleman's rifle"...It's truly a wealth of information. If you are really serious about starting a nice winchester model 70 collection then buy the hardback version:



Here's 2 of my original (never messed with) fwt's:

30-06 (1956):


308win. (1952):


Notice how they don't look perfect grin.....

Here's one my friend had that was refinished (metal and wood):

Even though this rifle looked new, the value was lost because of the refinish work. It was a shame too because this is a nice transition model.....

Sometimes the ones that have been put together are very hard to spot like the 375 H&H I had built a couple of months ago. I couldn't afford an all original one so I bought the parts and had one put together blush. It's pretty much all era correct with 100% original parts but nonetheless it's not...I'll never get rid of it so I don't mind:





Don't worry guys, I'm not going to try to pass it off as an original...It's staying with me grin......Hopefully this gives the OP something to think about.....
_________________________
Originally Posted By: raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.


BSA

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#7201752 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: bsa1917hunter]
shrapnel Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 12986
Loc: Bozeman, MT
There is just enough information out there to get a guy in trouble. Model 70's have been counterfeited for decades and good counterfeits can fool an expert. Don't buy anything you can't live with as it is, regardless of the condition.

One of the biggest Model 70 collectors here in Montana had a guy that knew the right formulas for bluing to match original Winchester. He was truly a craftsman to restore a Model 70. The problem isn't in the restoration, it is in the rack that some dealer has and tells you it is original.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: deflave
If you want to fit in with a new crowd, ask them if they know shrapnel. There is no friggin' way they won't know who that man is. He is the Chuck Norris of Montana and you will have a nice icebreaker to discuss.
Travis



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#7201769 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: pal]
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 21214
Loc: Orygun
Originally Posted By: pal
Originally Posted By: baberuth43
How would you know if its had a clean history or not? I mean I didn't think there was anyway of knowing on a used gun


Best way is to buy from the original owner or a reputable re-seller.

But if you're going to shoot it, why pay such a premium for high finish?

Here's my $700 FWT .30-06






Pal, there's nothing wrong with going that route either. I like your fwt even though I give you chit about the recoil pad install...Nice looking rifle there...
_________________________
Originally Posted By: raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.


BSA

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#7201962 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: bsa1917hunter]
TheOldTree Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 2695
Loc: ny adirondacks
77rl for me.

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#7202538 - 12/19/12 Re: Where to look, and what to look for Pre64 [Re: bsa1917hunter]
pal Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 4328
Loc: so cal
bsa--I'll give you $700 for that non-original .375. grin
_________________________
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon

"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg


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