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#7192061 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Mark R Dobrenski]
EdM Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 8955
Loc: Between Texas & Idaho
Can't help specifically as my pick is not on your list, the ZKK-602.

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#7192152 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: BobinNH]
George_De_Vries_3rd Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Iowa

Thanks Bob. Yes, of particular interest is the Barnes listing your correspondent mentioned--a max of 77 grains of R15 for a 270 grainer. I can tell you I worked up to 73 grs of R15 in my Ruger under the 260-gr Accubd and that was as close to the firewall as I care to be--faint ejector extrusion and a stubborn bolt; it was too hot for the 250-gr TTSX too, tens grains less but just as long a shank or perhaps a bit longer with the same 'ol signs. For others that read this, I would suspect that load listing until proven otherwise and the usual "work up slowly."

That said I enivision these portable 375s of any species (though I'm not certain what he meant about the "Ruger under performs" comment) very good at long range like mentioned and even better today with these sleek 250- and 260- and up- bullets. I am planning a spring spot 'n stalk mountain bear hunt next year and am considering taking the Ruger.

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#7192168 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: George_De_Vries_3rd]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5736
Loc: Montana
yea, QL shows a 270 gr TSX over 77 gr RE 15 to yield 2950 fps @ 82K+ psi from a 24" H&H.

Alliant lists 71 grains and Speer 260 gr but doesn't list pressures on their web site
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#7193496 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: toad]
BobinNH Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30547
Originally Posted By: toad
yea, QL shows a 270 gr TSX over 77 gr RE 15 to yield 2950 fps @ 82K+ psi from a 24" H&H.

Alliant lists 71 grains and Speer 260 gr but doesn't list pressures on their web site


I'm not too concrened about the load data....I shoot 77 gr with the 250 for over 2900 fps.My Krieger will not take those Barnes charges and no sense trying.But that doesn't mean nothing will.... smile

Last year,a pal worked up to 77 gr RL15 with the 270TSX in a 25" pre 64 M70 barrel for a bit under 2800 fps.I sat at the chronograph and watched the process with him. The rifle went to BC last year for grizzly,elk and mule deer(Got a grizz and mule deer with it).....I am not surprised since pre 64 M70 375 barrels are notorious for being "over sized" through the grooves and taking heavier charges. We have miked a few.

Other barrels will take lower charges....another reason I can't look at things like Quick Load and believe it.It simply is not universally applicable across the board.

The point that might be gleaned in all this discussion above,is that the new "magic" cases appearing now and then,resurected from the past, with a rush of publicity gets everybody all goosy and reaching for the check books,but the "real" magic is in the propellants and the bullets we have today.Not to say any of this is bad,just not as revolutionary as some think.


Edited by BobinNH (12/17/12)
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#7193664 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: BobinNH]
Dave93 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1448
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: BobinNH
Originally Posted By: George_De_Vries_3rd

You mean we are the old guys here? grin


Haha! Yeah!!

Only thing is some of the "old guys" have had 8 pound(scoped)375's,for over 30 years(A Ruger African with scope weighs 9 pounds. Like I said,I had one),and have been pushing 250 gr Bitterroots and other 250's at 2900+ fps,out of them for the same time frame without a hitch.Those oldtimers kurmarine like to throw digs at were building light 375's with wood stocks back in the 50's....guys like Shelhammer and Biesen built them,and they weighed about 9 pounds on the button.just like the Ruger Hawkeye.

It has been maybe twenty years since a pal and I figured out that 250 load shoots just as flat to 400 yards as a 340 with a 210 Partition(actual shooting with our rifles).

When the Ruger cartridge and rifle came out I tought..."Well thats pretty neat...it will do a bit better than the Holland and the rifle is well built and designed....about what we've been building for 3 decades". grin

But just because its commonly available today to the masses at a cheap price, doesn't mean its "better"....its just more "available". smile


Bob, you mention Shelhammer here. I was given an Oct 1954 American Rifleman which has an article by John George about " Three Little Rifles "...one of which was his 375 H&H by Shelhammer. Barrel was cut down to 22 inches and turned down to reduce weight. Lyman Alaskan scope ( something he used effectively during WW2). Shelhammer stock with a shorter than normal butt to be able to work the bolt from the shoulder. Also, it was not equipped with a recoil pad, but rather a solid Neidner model. Rifle action was a Winchester mod 70. He called it a "featherweight" in the article. I don't believe he gave a precise weight for the piece.

Another short and light weight 375 H&H was built by Fred Wells on an 8MM Mauser bring back from WW2. It had a 20 inch tube and a Lyman 2x scope. Apparently it was his loaner for people that didn't have a 375 but needed one. They nicknamed it the "Beast". It had much dangerous game to it's credit. Read about it here... Boatman blog


Edited by Dave93 (12/17/12)

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#7193705 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Dave93]
BobinNH Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30547
Dave: You nailed it....John George's lightweight 375H&H by Shelhammer was precisely the rifle I was refering to.... wink He had a second one in 300H&H built pretty much the same way.

Another noteworthy guy who built a similar rifle was John Jobson of Sports Afield.He had Al Biesen turn down the barrel of a M70 375 and cut it off to 23",(likely copying George's rifle)and had it stocked by Biesen as well.The finished product was 9 pounds(the weight of 375 Ruger African). Jobson used it both here in North America and in Tanzania to take buffalo and elephant among other animals.

This was common practice because even back then folks found that M70's could be on the heavy side,and many were turned down and lightened by savy guys.The Ruger African is a faithful reproduction of those rifles and the biggest factor in the weight of the rifle is the contour of the barrel,and the slim dimensions of the stock.the action has next to nothing to do with it.

Current Winchester 375's are still too damned heavy; no need for it at all and if you end up with a heavy 375H&H its your owned damned fault. smile
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#7193771 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: BobinNH]
bluefish Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 983
Loc: Maine
My Echols stocked 375 is 9lbs on the nose all up as they say and it is quite comfortable to shoot and carry.
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#7193836 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: BobinNH]
George_De_Vries_3rd Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Iowa
I agree about most 375s being too heavy including the Win model 70s. Perhaps this is due to the traditional view among American shooters that the 375s with their African success are BIG cartridges and should be in BIG guns. My experience which is not very deep with the 375 unless I include shooting a 340 for twenty years is that for me a range of 7.75-8.5 lbs max is just fine.

Even my R African could have a slimmer barrel for my tastes. I'm hoping my McM stock will shave a few ounces more.


Edited by George_De_Vries_3rd (12/17/12)

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#7194219 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: George_De_Vries_3rd]
Bighorn Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/21/01
Posts: 4904
Loc: Southern Kolorado
George,

My McM McWoody stocked Hawkeye African weighs 9 lb., all up with scope, rings, and sling. The McM stock, with magnum fill, actually added a few ounces to the overall weight.

The McMillan stock fits me so well that there is a noticeable decrease in felt recoil over the factory wood handle, which split at the tang after 80 rounds (and also after being bedded, I might add). A trigger job to reduce pull to a creep-free 3 lb. has helped turn this rifle into my idea of an ideal .375!

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#7194325 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Bighorn]
Dave93 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1448
Loc: Big Sky Country
Nice Bighorn.

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#7194370 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Bighorn]
George_De_Vries_3rd Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Iowa

Well, I guess that's what mine will look like too which is very nice. I'm a little disappointed about the overall weight which I guess mine will be close to too, but not enough to fret about it. Right now with a Leupy 4x aboard it's just over 8.5 but I am undecided also as to keeping this scope on it. About anything else will just add more calories.

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#7194431 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: George_De_Vries_3rd]
Bighorn Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/21/01
Posts: 4904
Loc: Southern Kolorado
IIRC, the weight of my rifle, with the wood handle, scope and rings, and no sling, was just a little over 8.5 lb. With the new McM, and the Montana sling, the weight is 9 lb. That sling is thick leather, and adds a few ounces.
There is a noticeable difference in recoil management between the two stocks, probably more due to the Pachmayr Decellerator 1" pad than a few more ounces of weight.
There was also a tendency with the wood stock to allow the bolt handle to rap my index finger knuckle quite smartly when shooting from the bench. The McM completely eliminated that problem.
I will say that, after carrying this rifle around for three days in the thornbush country of Argentina for water buffalo this August, I never noticed the weight!
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#7194488 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Bighorn]
kutenay Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 7739
I agree that Mod. 70s in .375H&H are too heavy and in several other chamberings, as well, IMO. I have packed P-64-70s in .375 H&H and .338WM many, many long, hard miles in the mountains of BC-AB and in northern Alberta's gooey muskeg (YUK).

So, I finally sold my nice original .375s and only kept one, which is in a Rimrock handle with a matching .300H&H and I almost never shoot. I have the little shorty on a P-64 action, 20" sts Classic tube, etc, etc, and THAT is my idea of a working .375H&H. I do not load as hot as I might, get 2400 fps. with 300 NPs at the muzzle and sub-moa grouping.

This, is my final purpose-built "working rifle" and it really performs. Built from salvaged parts, it did not cost very much, BUT, it works like it did and if I ding it, I do not care....if, I ding one of my nice original .338s or the .375/300 set, I get a little irate and say stuff that, long ago, the nuns at St. Joseph's would sorta "tune" me for..........

A light .375 H&H, 23" bbl., to 8.75-9.25 lbs, ready to rock is probably as close to the perfect all-around one rifle as we will ever see in our remaining lifetimes. If, one prefers the Ruger, hey, it's all good and I might well trade into an African in .375 Ruger, would for sure if it was stainless, just because I really enjoy shooting medium magnums.

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#7194924 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: kutenay]
Dirtfarmer Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 13809
Loc: Central Louisiana
I understand that Winchester has the same barrel contour for all their "big" safari type guns. With the .375 H&H, there is a lot more steel left in the barrel than with a .485 Win Mag. Thus, the .375's seem to be barrel heavy at 24". With the sight holes drilled, most smiths don't want to turn down such a barrel, siting tool chatter, etc. from the holes. And, turning a barrel down is a lot of work unless one has expensive machinery designed for that task. Cutting the barrel to 21" will miss the screw holes and can help a lot, but those guns are still pretty beefy. To me, Winchester barrels are accurate and I hate to scrap one. But, a custom build may be the only way to achieve "perfection".

DF

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#7195520 - 12/17/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Mark R Dobrenski]
458Win Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 2668
Loc: AK peninsula
Originally Posted By: Mark R Dobrenski
Originally Posted By: 458Win
The difference between the 375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are almost identical to the differences between the 300 H&H and the .300 Win Mag.

Alaskans are voting with their pocket books and the Ruger is currently outselling the ancient H&H by a wide margin and a number of astute African PH's are also discovering the benefits of the Ruger as well.


Phil-this is just me but I'll hazard a guess that it's more about the price point and the package than it is about the round. Thoughts?

Personally I like the package that the 77/375 Ruger has to offer but it's very hard for me to find a factory 375 that I'd even remotely consider toting as it comes from the factory. The 700 XCR is the only exception to this that I can think of.

Thx
Dober


You are right that the price point and package certainly affect how well a rifle and cartridge are accepted. That is one of the main reasons H&H rifles built on cheaper Mauser bolt actions became noticed in 1912. Then as the performance became known the H&H round gained a legion of loyal fans. A few of the most rabid posting here. wink
So did the 300 H&H, but a other rounds were developed that either duplicated or surpassed the ancient, overly long H&H case, and could be built on even cheaper and more readily available actions, the demand for the longer case was no longer there.
Just as the .300 H&H still has a few loyal fans, I am sure the 375 H&H will be around for a long time, but hunters will vote with their wallets and my prediction is that the 375 Ruger will eventually overshadow the .375 H&H just as the .300 Win beat out the .300H&H. Not because of any ballistic advantages - which are minimal - but because you can get the same performance in a smaller, cheaper package.

And when it comes to dangerous game, nostalgia isn't worth a bucket of warm spit, while performance is and, although a slightly longer bolt throw makes no difference on the range, when your life is at stake and you are under stress even minor advantages count.


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Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

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#7196007 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: 458Win]
30338 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 7165
Loc: Denver
Not on the OPs current list, but shot a new to me Whitworth today. Recoil was a very pleasant surprise even with an old hard pad on it. Only shot 9 rounds but having great accuracy out of the gate with RL15 and 270 Hornady spitzer. Rifle was an old friend's gun and so happy to be in possession of it.

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#7196871 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: 30338]
idahoguy101 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/08
Posts: 2790
Loc: Caldwell, Idaho
The old saying is "When in Rome, do as the Roman"s do".

If you can afford a trip to Hunt in Africa owning a 375 H&H is a comparative minor expense. A decent used one is $100 USD. Or just use the 375 H&H that your PH has for his clients.

If you can afford both Alaska and Africa, then two different 375's are affordable.

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#7197065 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: idahoguy101]
338rcm Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 6065
Loc: colorado
Originally Posted By: idahoguy101
The old saying is "When in Rome, do as the Roman"s do".

If you can afford a trip to Hunt in Africa owning a 375 H&H is a comparative minor expense. A decent used one is $100 USD. Or just use the 375 H&H that your PH has for his clients.

If you can afford both Alaska and Africa, then two different 375's are affordable.



Got any decent used 375s you want to part with for a $100?

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#7198137 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: 338rcm]
Bighorn Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/21/01
Posts: 4904
Loc: Southern Kolorado
Originally Posted By: 338rcm
Originally Posted By: idahoguy101
The old saying is "When in Rome, do as the Roman"s do".

If you can afford a trip to Hunt in Africa owning a 375 H&H is a comparative minor expense. A decent used one is $100 USD. Or just use the 375 H&H that your PH has for his clients.

If you can afford both Alaska and Africa, then two different 375's are affordable.



Got any decent used 375s you want to part with for a $100?


Put me down for two........
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I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....

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#7198172 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Bighorn]
Dirtfarmer Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 13809
Loc: Central Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Bighorn
Originally Posted By: 338rcm
Originally Posted By: idahoguy101
The old saying is "When in Rome, do as the Roman"s do".

If you can afford a trip to Hunt in Africa owning a 375 H&H is a comparative minor expense. A decent used one is $100 USD. Or just use the 375 H&H that your PH has for his clients.

If you can afford both Alaska and Africa, then two different 375's are affordable.



Got any decent used 375s you want to part with for a $100?


Put me down for two........

He probably left off a zero.

I'd take a truck load at $100... cool

DF

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#7199140 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: Dirtfarmer]
458Win Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 2668
Loc: AK peninsula
for $100 I bet you could even sell Rugers to H&H fans grin
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

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#7199175 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: 458Win]
kutenay Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 7739
Speaking of which, I see a used Ruger African in .375R for sale here in Canada,and I am curious, has anyone EVER REALLY found that these rifles will/do not cycle perfectly if ran hard and fast in the Ruger chambering?

Also, does anyone make/sell a 4+1 replacement mag box in steel for these? I think that I would love one so modded and in a nice Micky std. fill handle, to a all-in weight of 9ish lbs.

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#7199211 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: 458Win]
Dirtfarmer Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 13809
Loc: Central Louisiana
Originally Posted By: 458Win
for $100 I bet you could even sell Rugers to H&H fans grin

laugh laugh

Now, that's a good one, Phil. And very true, without a doubt.

With the right "bottom line", "major" differences and hard opinions may just fade away... grin

DF

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#7199232 - 12/18/12 Re: which 375 [Re: kutenay]
FOsteology Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 7989
Loc: Texas
Kute,

Yes. I had a Ruger Alaskan that feed extremely well, although I believe the NP3 I had the bolt coated with was a contributing factor.

Stocked it in a McMillan and it was a nice rifle. However, it only held three down and I simply didn't like the Ruger safety. Since it wouldn't be replacing my .375 H&H's, down the road it went.

Recently picked up a CRF SS M70 .375 H&H action, so next year I'll be building yet another!

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