Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Barnes vs Partitions vs Ballistic Tips

Many thanks! I ask because I got a great buy on Federal Premium .30-06 w/180 MRX and am really wondering how they will perform at the 2550-2700 mv they will probably run from my 22 inch barrel.

Expat

Make sure another animal isn't standing behind the first! We have yet to recover an MRX or TTSX, whether 100g, 140g, 168g or 180g.

Drove a 180g MRX stem to stern with exit through a mulie. Near as I can calculate with estimated range of 350 (POS Leupold RX-IV rangefinder wouldn't get a reading, kinda glad I lost it), impact velocity was 2359fps.

That is good to know. Thank you.

Your point about extra weight is true if other factors, such as velocity, are the same. That's not the case here, though, where Alvaro states a 140g @ 3100fps and a 168g @ 2800fps. Given those starting velocities, your conclusion about velocity at 500 yards is incorrect.

Assuming 10,000 feet for "mountain game", 70 degrees and MPBR zeros for a maximum 3" rise above LOS, the facts are these:

140g Berger VLD @ 3100fps, BC .517, Zero = 270 yds, MPBR = 318 yds
145g Barnes LRX @ 3100fps, BC.486, Zero = 269 yds, MPBR = 317 yds
168g Berger VLD @ 2800fp ,BC .617, Zero - 248 yds, MPBR = 293 yds
168g Barnes LRX @ 2800fps, BC .550, Zero = 247 yds, MPBR = 291 yds

500 yards
=================
140g VLD = 2487fps, 1923fpe, -24.8" drop. 9.96" drift
145g LRX = 2459fps, 1947fpe, -25.2" drop, 10.5" drift
168g VLD = 2320fps, 2007fpe. -32.0" drop, 9.27" drift
168g LRX = 2265fps, 1913fpe, -33.0" drop, 10.6" drift

800 yards
=================
140g VLD = 2157fps, 1447fpe, -103.1" drop, 27.3" drift
145g LRX = 2116fps, 1441fpe, -105.2" drop, 29.8" drift
168g VLD = 2056fps, 1577fpe, -124.9" drop, 25.4" drift
168g LRX = 1974fps, 1453fpe, -129.6" drop, 29.0" drift

1000 yards
=================
140g VLD = 1952fps, 1184fpe, -191.2" drop, 44.5" drift
140g LRX = 1902fps, 1165fpe, -195.4" drop, 47.1" drift
168g VLD = 1889fpe, 1331fpe, -225.8" drop, 40.9" drift
168g LRX = 1793fps, 1199fpe, -237.0" drop, 47.2" drift

The facts are that inside 1000 yards the 168g VLD never catches up to the 140g VLD in terms of velocity and at 800 yards has 22" more drop with only 2" less drift. If stuck with using VLDs, I'd choose the 140g.

Given a choice, though, I'd choose the 145g LRX. One of the problems I've experienced over the years is my shot ranges are not always what I expect. In 2007 I was expecting shots at 400-600 yards across open land. Instead I ended up taking a cow at 125 yards, passing on a second (already clearly wounded) at 25 feet and then taking one at 40 yards. This year I passed on shots at elk at 220 so my hunting buddy and son-in-law could take one, had another opportunity at maybe 150 but passed because they were moving, waited until they stopped, then took one at 399. My deer this year was in open sage and once again I expected long shots but took one well under 100 yards. I trust the Barnes TTSX and LRX at any range I'd be willing to take a shot, and, having driven them through mulies lengthwise, at any angle. Can't say the same for a bullet that is advertised to produce a 13-15" wound channel. The VLDs might be great at long ranges but I simply don't trust them to hold together at close range. The Barnes tipped X bullets do hold together and more game we've taken with them have dropped instantly than not.

Coyote Hunter,
Bergers do not kill by holding together. On the contrary, they kill by violentley being turned to shrapnel after the first two-three inches of penetration producing a rather instant kill, as those whp have used them can attest.
Alvaro

It just seems odd that they always penetrate 2-3" prior to any expansion, no matter if bone is hit, no matter if they are going 3500 or 2100

Coyote Hunter,

I don't know what ballistic program you're using, but I first used Sierra Infinity with Berger's own G1 ballistc coeffcients for both bullets. Today I ran it through the Point Mass Ballistics Solver from Bryan Litz's book, using Berger's G7 ballistic coefficient. I listed the 168 at 2850 fps, because that's what I've found to be a more realistic velocity when comparing the two bullets, if the 140 is started at 3100.

The programs didn't produce identical results, probably because of the different G1 and G7 BC's used, but they both agreed that the 168 at 2850 would catch the 140 in velocity at right around 500 yards. With both programs the difference in widn drift was about twice as much as you indicate.

Any difference in drop is irrelevant these days, what with laser rangefinders and an easy means of compensating, whether with a multi-point reticle or by twisting the elevation turret.

Just like varmint bullets except they tend to be heavier and fatter and it takes a hair longer for them to come apart as a result.

There are several reasons I won't use them, including these, based on the manufacturer's claims as well as various field reports:

1. I don't trust them to penetrate deeply enough on bad angles.
2. I DO trust them to be excessively destructive. I saw what my son-in-law's 168g A-MAX did to an antelope ham and don't expect anything different form Berger VLDs. No thanks.
3. Other bullets perform just fine without the drawbacks, especially at ranges I'm prepared to shoot (600 yards max). There is no compelling reason for me to go to VLDs.

If you like them use them. I'd be worried a broadside on a goat or sheep would blow a baseball-sized hole, or larger, in the off-side, ruining the pelt.

Can they kill quickly? Sure. But so can other bullets and the difference in time between the shot and the animal on the ground is often often measured in milliseconds at best.

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. A-Maxes and VLD's do not expand in the same way. And any bullet will ruin considerable meat if placed in an animal's "ham."

Most expanding bullets (even TSX's) begin expanding as soon as they hit an animal's hide, and are fully expanded by the time the rear end of the bullet goes through the hide. Berger VLD's don't even begin to expand until they're 2-3 inches into the animal. Then they do indeed expand violently--inside where it counts.

If you don't want to use Bergers, fine. Obviously you firmly believe expensive, deep-penetrating bullets are best for shooting forkhorn mule deer and doe antelope. That's also your privilege. But don't try to convince the thousands of people who like the charactertistics of VLD's that they're wrong when you don't have the slightest bit of experience with VLD's.

The program I use most often, and again in this case, is Point Blank - which I've found to be pretty consistent with other programs. I also used 2800fps because that was the velocity specified.



Comparing the Point Blank results for the 168g VLD against the JBM online calculator (http://www.jbmballistics.com), Point Blank's calculated drift is less and retained velocity is greater than the jbm results. Nevertheless, the differences were small (15fps and 1.3" at 1000 yards). All results were using G1 BCs.

Very few hunters are prepared to shoot over 600 yards, including myself. For those that are the VLDs might be the best thing since sex. For those that aren't, I think there are better choices and put my money where my mouth is.

As far as VLDs and A-MAXs, both are relatively frangible bullets that produce lots of shrapnel. Up to 85% for the VLD, according to Berger. Thanks, but no thanks. I simply haven't found that to be necessary and don't deem it desirable.

While I've driven 140g North Fork and 180g MRX through mulie hams, from opposite directions, neither caused the wastage we saw when my son-in-law destroyed an antelope ham with A-MAX shrapnel.



Considering that I've driven TTSX and MRX pull length through mulies and that most animals we've used them on went down at the shot, the fact that tipped X bullets may begin to expand on impact is hardly a negative in my book. More like a plus.



One of the great things about the human mind is that they can learn from shared experience and deductive reasoning as well as direct experience. There is no shortage of negative reports about VLD performance, just as not everyone is happy with the performance of tipped X bullets.

Yes, I shoot forkhorn mulies and doe antelope with MRX and TTSX. Don't forget mulie does, elk of both sexes and the occasional coyote and prairie dog. Smaller critters are good practice for the main event, which for me is elk hunting. I've also used North Forks, AccuBond, Grand Slams and cup-and-core bullets. My loads for deer and antelope are, with the sometimes exception of my .257 Roberts, the same as I use for elk. So far I have yet to find them wanting. Both buck and doe antelope hit with a 100g or 168g TTSX have, with only one exception I can think of, dropped immediately or within a few faltering steps, with little or no shrapnel ruining the off-side meat. The exception only made it a 20 yards or so. Works for me.

Yes, I firmly believe deep penetrating bullets are best for me. The tipped X and my favorite, the North Forks have performed great and the added expense, as I've pointed out many times, is negligible when compared to the rest of my hunting costs. My 4x4 buck and cow elk this year cost me a total of two 180g MRX bullets. Whoopee. I load my own so even with the added bullet expense I'm paying less for my ammo than most people who shoot factory ammo. Frankly, a slight additional cost to my ammo doesn't matter a whit. Nor does what bullet I use matter when things go right, as most any bullet will do in such circumstances. What I do care about is performance when things go wrong and more penetration is needed.

Of all the things that matter to me when I plan, prepare, and spend money to go on a hunt, bullet cost isn't on the radar.

If I start worrying if I can afford a 70 cent bullet instead of a 40 cent one, ill quit hunting. A can of coke costs more than the difference

But that's just me...


Anyways:
Its intriguing that Bergers ALWAYS penetrate at least 2-3" before they expand in anyway, no matter how fast they are going and no matter whether they hit bone or not...
Truly unique design

So a 155 vld loaded to the max out of a 300 RUM impacting an elk shoulder at 20 yards quartering towards you won't explode?

This may have nothing to do with nothing, but I got to field test some 7-08/120 BT loads this past weekend on hogs. I shot 4 of the vermin, from 120-275lbs (estimating), from 50-200 yards. All were broadside, complete pass-throughs shot behind the shoulder, about mid height. They all dropped imediately on the spot, quivered a little, and laid there dead. Remarkable performance from this little bullet IMO.

"Truly unique design" = Thin-skinned target bullet coupled with great marketing, liberally sprinkled with holy magic shrapnel dust. Thou shall not doubt...

Ditto here.

Midway is selling 180g TTSX at $36.49 per 50 ($0.73 each) and 180g VLDs for $46.00 per 100 ($0.46 each). That works out to a difference of $0.27 per bullet. This year I used two bullets to take my 4x4 buck and cow elk. The cost difference between TTSX and VLDs would have amounted to a whole $0.54.

By contrast, this year's OTHER hunting expenses for my deer/elk hunt, at least the ones I kept track of, were a little more significant:

$ 93.12 Groceries
$ 92.50 Campground fees
$ 254.21 Fuel and wash
$ 453.30 Processing
$ 76.02 Truck repairs after the hunt
$ 209.00 Licenses and a restaurant dinner I bought for everyone
================================================
$1,178.15

And that total does not include the oil change and new rear shocks I put on just before the hunt.

How much would 2 TTSX have added to the cost over VLDs? Not 4%, not .4% or .04% but a vanishingly small .004%.

I think it costs me more to sneeze.

OK, I screwed up on the math. The total cost of this year's hunt was around $1350 with the new shocks and oil change. The extra cost of using two TTSX over two VLDs would have been $0.54 as previously stated. Using TTSX would therefore have added an extra .04%, not .004%.

Even so, it's still not enough for me to get worked up about. Using VLDs and saving $0.54 per year, it would take over 12 years to save enough to buy a cheap glass of wine with my dinner out.

Yup, those TTSX are damned expensive. Lucky I have enough left to feed myself...