I went to the range today. -25C, sunshine, and nobody else there. Can't ask for a better day.
This is a follow up, if you will, to the other test I did a while ago.
Test: I ordered 50lbs of cow leg bones from a butcher I know. All shots were through the joint (thickest part of the bone) portion. I also put a 2" thick piece of neck trim (muscle, silver skin and connective tissue) in front of the bone and behind it to simulate meat on the way in and on the way out. All measurements are of the depth of penetration into the newspaper ONLY. For total penetration add 4" of meat and another 5-6" for the bone to the numbers I will post for each bullet. Soaked newspaper over night and taped them together in stacks of ~5" with ductape. These bones were all shot at 5m to simulate an absolute worst case scenario for a bullet. Max impact speed as well as the animal taking a step prior to the shot which turns a easy broadside shot into something else since there is a big elk/moose leg in the way now.
This is not scientific, valid, don't throw out the bullets you've been using for 30 years etc. I did this to satisfy my own curiosity and as much as it sucks to haul a bathtub full of wet heavy newspaper around, it's also fun.
I did not finish all the bullets in the lineup as I ran out of newspaper. I will finish the 30 cal test (165gmx, 180btip, 208amax) and I will also test a .375 270gr tsx and 260gr accubond, just to satisfy my own curiosity.
Bullets up for testing. L to R 165gr hornady gmx, 168gr nosler btip, 180gr nosler btip, 180gr nosler etip, 180gr barnes tsx, 180gr swift scirocco 2, 180gr barnes original, 200gr lapua mega, 195gr Chinchaga, 200gr nosler accubond, 200gr nosler partition, 210 berger vld, 208 hornady amax
Cow bones for testing
Results
Bullet: .308 210gr Berger Hunting VLD Penetration: 7" (7" is newspaper only. Total penetration was 16" (4" for meat at 5" of bone). All penetration measurements are only newspaper, please add 9" of bone/meat if you want total penetration.) Weight retention: 57.6gr (27.5%) Expansion diameter: .694" Impact speed: ~2800fps
Bullet: .308 195gr Chinchaga (They are made by Dale Janzen [Chinchaga Custom Bullets] In Peace River AB.) Penetration: 6.5" Weight retention: 144.1gr (73.9%) Expansion diameter: I honestly have no idea how to measure this as I don't know where the front or back/shank/anything is on this bullet. Looks like a blob of lead. It is 1.031" "wide" fwiw. Impact speed: ~2850fps
Bullet: .308 180gr Barnes original (these are considered a "good" cup and core which is why I picked it. .032" jacket thickness) Penetration: 4.5" Weight retention: 93.9gr (52.2%) Expansion diameter: 1.032" Impact speed: ~2900fps
Bullet: .308 180gr Swift Scirocco II Penetration: 14" Weight retention: 139.5gr (77.5%) Expansion diameter: .651" Impact speed: ~2900fps
I also tested my wife's 243 win with 80gr ttsx at 3150fps as well as my 223 with 55gr hornady gmx at 3300fps into deer femurs. Wrapped with 2" of trim. 5m impact worst case scenario.
Bullet: .224 55gr Hornady GMX Penetration: 11" (11" of newspaper. Add 6-7" for total penetration of meat/bone/meat/newspaper) Weight retention: 51.2gr without the little piece I found (93.1%) Expansion diameter: .673" Impact speed: 3300fps
Bullet: .243 80gr Barnes TTSX Penetration: 16" (blew all the petals off so not surprised it went this deep) Weight retention: 54.8gr (68.5%) Expansion diameter: .284" Impact speed: 3150fps
Quick update The 168gr Nosler ballistic tip I tested was of new construction and the "beefed" up version. The 180gr Nosler ballistic tip I have loaded and will test soon is of "old" construction (2003 manufacture). I posted a picture to show the difference between the 180gr "old" version (on the left) and the 168gr "new" version (on the right). I do not know what year they started beefing up the jackets but the "new" 180gr version has the same beefed up jacket in current production form.
Good stuff. The 168 BT performance is pretty impressive for what that bullet is! Just deer, but I haven't been able to catch a 150 yet...some where hard front angle shoulder shots from a .308 Win.
I think the 168 Ballistic Tip, for its construction, is the most impressive bullet of everything tested.
I was thinking the same thing, for a bullet that blows up when you talk to a lot of people it sure hung tough in your test. I shoot the 180's in my .30 cals.
Kman, Thank you for taking the time and effort to do the testing, and then share data and pictures with the rest of us. Empirical data is always much appreciated.
Excellent work. I'm eagarly awaiting the rest. Kind of makes me glad I've got 300 of those blow up 168 NBT's from the shooters pro shop a few weeks ago. Going to put a load together for them in my .300 Win.
Thank you for all the kind words! I posted a quick update in the original thread regarding "old" and "new beefed up" Nosler ballistic tip construction. The 168gr I tested had the beefed up jacket and the 180gr I have yet to test is of "old" construction.
Also helps explain why everything I've shot with a Ballistic Tip in the past few years had an exit wound, even with the little 115 gr .257" B-Tips. They're pretty tough bullets.
Thanks for the test KMan! I stick to water-filled jugs. Easy clean up. But I don't get to shoot bones & meat & stuff that way. Nice work.
Those solid coppers did real well. I have some Nosler 210gr. E-tips for the 338 to try. I hope they group well.
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thanks for posting that! I havent used NBT for awhile and I am looking for a bullet to replace the 165Hot-cor in my 308Win (just running out) and believe that 168NBT will be it!
and 180tsx in 300 Norma! wow
Last edited by rem06; 12/25/12.
is that extra 25fps worth detonation? NRA life member
Thanks for posting all your hard work, I bet you had fun doing it. I really like how some of the lead bullets did like the 200 gr Partition, Accubond and Lapua Mega bullet, the 180 gr Swift and 168 gr Ballistic Tip. While I prefer lead core bullets, it is easy to see how a hunting load with the 168 gr Ballistic Tip and one of the mono bullets could do anything a guy would want.
I also tested the .375 270gr Barnes TSX and the .375 260gr Nosler Accubond. Same test conditions.
Bullet: .375 270gr Barnes TSX Penetration: 22.5" (Blew all the petals off. Never would have thought that would happen.) Weight retention: 169.4gr (62.7%) Expansion diameter: .483" Impact speed: ~2800fps
Many thanks from me too. I wonder if this place good use a "bullet tests" section so things like this would stick around a little longer.
All that said....I think the mind boggler is the little 55 grain gmx. It got as wide as some of the 308s and penetrated as far. to me this is a pretty stunning advancement in bullet performance. We always knew you could go to lighter wt monometals....but no one talks of dropping 3-4 calibers!!
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
So the 168BT penetrated within a half inch of the 200 accubond? Wow
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
Almost makes you wonder why bother going with the 200 accu vs the 168bt? Little better BC I suppose... I guess this is only one test, but it is a heck of a test!
Bullets L to R .375 250gr TTSX, .308 175gr LRX, .308 168gr TSX, .308 130gr TTSX
Bullets L to R .308 200gr Speer SP, 200gr Sierra BTSP, 180gr Speer Grand Slam, 180gr Speer Deep Curl, 180gr Nosler Partition Protected Point, 180gr Nosler Partition
Bullets L to R .308 190gr Hornady IL BTSP, 165gr Speer Grand Slam, 155gr Lapua Scenar
I'm done testing for now. If I do more it won't be until Summer. Newspaper weighed 550lbs today and my back is killing me. I'm very surprised by some of the results and others were expected. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. I would like to point out though that all 4 "fragile" "match" bullets (210 vld, 208 amax, 155 scenar, 140 bthp) penetrated a cow femur and several inches of muscle as well as newspaper. None of them exploded and all of them out penetrated several "real" hunting bullets. They make huge wound channels as well. They are certainly not premium bullets (partition, tsx et al) but they are better than several normal cup and core hunting bullets, imvho of course.
Man, Thanks for all the time/work! This is really good stuff...
Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
Good stuff. The 168 BT performance is pretty impressive for what that bullet is! Just deer, but I haven't been able to catch a 150 yet...some where hard front angle shoulder shots from a .308 Win.
Same here, I took several deer this year at different angles and ranges with the 150 NBT (308win) and all have been pass thru's. Couple years ago I used Sierra 165 HPBT with the same results, 2 holes every time. IMR 4895 and go kill some [bleep]
Thanks for doing these tests. It is sad that Speer cheaped out the G.S. bullets, I am looking forward to trying the Deep Curl bullets in a 260 and 270. Thought the Mega bullet would have been a bit tougher.
Thank you again!!! I wish you would've done the 130 Ttsx at 3000-3200.... Alot of us here use it 300 savage, 308, 30/06
Would've been great to see what it did at the speed. I'm sure it would've expanded less and retained a little more weight. Don't know if that would've translated to deeper penetration though
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
Also the 130 ttsx didn't shear off any petals at 3575 impact speed. Quite remarkable and not sure why
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
Great bullet test. People that get paid to do this couldn't do a better job. If I wasn't 3000 miles away, I'd love to help you with the grunt work. Amazingly, you tested almost every bullet that is of interest to me. Thanks, Steve
Wow! This is an excellent post, and I am very grateful for the information it provides. Thank you for taking so much time and effort!
One thing I consistently see is the barnes bullets, of which I am admittedly biased towards, penetrate like John Holmes. Great to see them perform in this test.
Out of curiosity what rifle are you using? Given the velocity on the 30cal I would guess a HOT 30-06, or more likely a 300 WinMag?
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Very nformative post to say the least ! Sounds like you are plent busy already BUT if you find time I sure would be interested in seeing what the 60 Grain .223 Nosler partition would do at 3000-3100.
Kman, I was talking about hunting moose as a "labour of love"" in another thread, and this is right on up there! I'll chime in and say great work and most importantly thanks for sharing your results with everyone here-I know it's appreciated. Keep up the good work. I know they beefed up the b-tip for the 338 cal but didnt know they had done the same with sub 338 cals. Also what's up with the grand slams,(165g), seems like they really took a step back on that one! Disappointing considering they're touting it like the premiun bullet that it once was with dual cores.
This was a great piece of work. I played with the numbers to do a comparison of penetration to published SD and then to the SD of the recovered bullet after the shot. Makes it clear to me that published SD is NOT an indicator of penetration. Bullet construction, as seen by the recovered bullet SD (how far it opened and how well it retained weight) directly correlates to penetration. (Note: the slope of the curve, not the fact that it's overlaying the penetration shows the correlation). I probably should have left the 80 TTSX and 55 GMX off as they were a slightly different test.
I tested the 300gr Berger OTM, 300gr Sierra Match King, 285gr Hornady BTHP, 265gr Barnes LRX and the 250gr Nosler Partition Gold (they no longer make these, where moly coated and have longer shanks than current partitions). I will test the remaining 250gr Sierra Match King and the 250gr Hornady BTHP along with some 6.5 bullets later this fall.
L to R: 250gr Nosler Partition Gold, 250gr Sierra Match King, 250gr Hornady BTHP, 285gr Hornady BTHP, 300gr Sierra Match King, 300gr Berger OTM, 265gr Barnes LRX
L to R: 300gr Berger OTM, 300gr Sierra Match King, 285gr Hornady BTHP, 265gr Barnes LRX, 250gr Nosler Partition Gold
L to R: 300gr Berger OTM, 265gr Barnes LRX, 250gr Nosler Partition Gold
Just for fun I also tested my 44 Magnum 1894 Marlin shooting 265gr wheel weight cast Ranch dog mold with gas check bullets. Same test as all the others.
Outstanding write up! Thanks for the hard work. I like the pistol bullet, big, fat and slow gets over looked these days for sleek and fast. I am really liking to looks of the Berger bullets now, I might have to brake down and try em.
Thanks for the comments. I am incredibly pleased with the way the 300gr OTM performed. The wound channel was absolutely incredible and the bullet held together. That 300gr OTM beat every single 30 cal and 375 bullet I tested, for wound channel and penetration, and only a few barnes that blew petals off penetrated deeper. Needless to say the barnes shanks had no wound channel to speak of.
I am waiting for the .264 129gr nosler long range accubond and will test it when I find some along with 140gr berger vlds and the new hybrid version. Will post my results as usual. I will also test both those .264 bullets at 500 yards and see what they do but that won't be until the lakes are frozen in the winter.
Kind of shocked how poorly the 200 gr. Speer .308 performed. I have used it in Africa and here in the states and they performed perfectly for me, Hmmmmm.
Kind of shocked how poorly the 200 gr. Speer .308 performed. I have used it in Africa and here in the states and they performed perfectly for me, Hmmmmm.
Could have been an anomaly.
One would expect it to at least hold together as well as the 208 Amax. At least I would.
Bullets do some strange things in these tests. Eg I did two separate wet newspaper tests with the same bullet, but used two different impact speeds to simulate close and longer range impacts. At the lower speed, the same bullet shed more weight and penetrated less, the opposite of what was expected.
This is why more testing is great for verifying results. It also explains a lot of incidents where bullets don't act the way you think they will on game.
Impressive test. I have killed a couple elk and a bear with the 200gr sierra SPBT. 30-06 2600fps muzzle velocity. The 2 elk where both about 200yrds, the bear 150yrds. My conclusion, They need more impact velocity to get good expansion. All three needed follow up shots to speed up the death process.
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Very informative tests. Thanks for posting this and doing the tests. The info is great. There were a few that surprised me on their performance; both good and not so good.
Reno
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Kman, Just found this thread from monster muleys web site discussion on bullet performance. Wonderful presentation of your test results. Thank you for all your extensive work and sharing here with us fellow gun lovers and hunters. : )
The biggest lesson here still hasn't been mentioned in 11 pages?
I have found it extremely difficult to sell the fact that Sectional Density is a totally BS argument in grading expanding hunting bullets.
The 130gn TTSX at 3500fps and the stubby handgun cast bullet have the lowest SD in the pack and are up with the best of them in penetration. Not one single surprise in that, but SD will continue to plague theoretical argument long into the future.
Excellent work kman.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
I actually plotted the penetration vs. Published SD and it turns out there was no correlation. There was nearly perfect correlation between the SD of the recovered bullet and penetration.
The SD argument falls flat when you compare same caliber and same weight bullet which naturally have same SD.
The 200gn TSX, Partition, Speer and Accubond will achieve penetration based on their construction. The SD theory is out the window.
Bullet construction and inadequacy of same for particular velocity levels, has destroyed the sales potential of some great cartridges and created whole writing careers for some that didn't make the connection.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
My previous posts called you Oman- sorry about that - that's auto correct for you.
I'm not at all impressed with most of the Barnes results. You mentioned small wound channels in the Barnes tests due to blow petals, is it safe to assume the petals were blown on impact or shortly thereafter? As far as I am concerned, that is bullet failure, especially considering the performance of the GMX and the E-Tip
My previous posts called you Oman- sorry about that - that's auto correct for you.
I'm not at all impressed with most of the Barnes results. You mentioned small wound channels in the Barnes tests due to blow petals, is it safe to assume the petals were blown on impact or shortly thereafter? As far as I am concerned, that is bullet failure, especially considering the performance of the GMX and the E-Tip
How is that bullet failure when tens of millions of animals have been killed with cup and core bullets that did the same thing? Just another thought.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
My previous posts called you Oman- sorry about that - that's auto correct for you.
I'm not at all impressed with most of the Barnes results. You mentioned small wound channels in the Barnes tests due to blow petals, is it safe to assume the petals were blown on impact or shortly thereafter? As far as I am concerned, that is bullet failure, especially considering the performance of the GMX and the E-Tip
How is that bullet failure when tens of millions of animals have been killed with cup and core bullets that did the same thing? Just another thought.
EXCELLENT Point! Most cup and core lose far more mass than what a Barnes or similar loses when it drops a petal or two.
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You are free to choose what you want but why would you choose a Barnes that clearly shed its petals before making it through bone rather than any of the others that at least retained some mass, and therefore, ability to cause a signicant wound channel . The Barnes were clearly the worst performers in the group.
There is not a cup and core in the group that lost more mass than several of the Barnes in those photos- and, what they did lose they lost as a result of making a wound channel- not so with Barnes as was noted by Kman.
Simple solution to the problem - shoot thru the ribs, neck or head ........and don't worry about the bullet's ability to break shoulder bone........
Nevertheless good work Kman.........and it also amazes me why we still stick to 165 - 180 grain bullets in the 30 cal when the 130 gr TTSX / GMX or similar will do the job....heck I am even contemplating loading up some 110 grain TTSX's to shoot deer thru my 300 Win Mag.... have tried 110 grain V-Max's and they shoot a treat on varmints. Go figure??? Gus
If I had to guess the 110 grain 30 cal bullet will work exceptionally well. This is based on knowledge of watching a friend many years ago use 110 Sierra HP on deer in Maine out of a 06. Witnessed a lot of DRT's with him using that Sierra bullet and it was accurate off the bench as well. A 110 TTSX out of a 300WM would probably be just awesome with very quick kills on deer.
while I love the test, I looked at the results, and was rather shocked,as too the results my favorite bullet in 30 caliber produced in the test. I found listed as, well, it was damn near the worst listed! performance..sucked in that test,..then I thought thru decades of results Ive seen on deer and elk and having had zero failures it occurred to me that Ive never shot an elk in the shoulder, and neither has anyone else I hunt with,tried punching holes in shoulder joint,s. Id point out that when you shoot a deer or elk deliberately in the shoulder joint, your sure to loose a good deal of that shoulder,meat.
a 200 speer 30 cal launched from several of the camps 30/06 rifles, has a very good track record,dealing with ,punching thru the lungs and heart area of game, it has for decades produced very dead elk and deer! the test is certainly interesting, but after using a bullet with complete success for decades in a 30/06 I just can,t jump on the premium bullet band wagon, and abandon a well known productive tool that we have used successfully for many years.the common 30/06 is a very frequent choice among the hunters I know and in skilled hands its fully adequate in most conditions when used to kill deer and elk, easily filling the requirements and with darn few perceived or actual limitations doing so..
As to people's desire to shoot really light monometal bullets from 30 cals at very high velocity, good luck to people if that's what they like but... Why is that in any way better than a 180g cup and core bullet solution at more moderate speed?
Seems to me they'll probably both work about the same as far as killing quickly and humanely. Accuracy is likely also to be similar.
And while one will kick a bit less than the other, it will also cost about two-and-a-half times more.
Great work and once again, clear, compelling evidence that the T/TTSXs, by every valid measure of effectiveness are the best bullets out there, or certainly the best of all the ones tested.
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I think we are under the assumption that penetration is the sole determining factor in humane harvest. Certainly this test was to see what bullet could penetrate after hitting what appears to be a bovine stifle (it is similar anatomically to the human knee) at five meters. Hitting an animal in other areas of its body may have benefits in bullet frangibility. In other words the ability of a bullet to shed or transfer its energy into the animal instead of passing through and expending it into the dirt or some place out side of the animal. Also dispersal of bullet material into highly vascular tissue may enhance hemorrhage. However hydro static shock is perhaps best expressed with complete penetration (Much as a sabot round going through the tank turret, will suck out the crewman through the exit hole). Another consideration is the toxic principle of the lead fragments left behind in tissue by the more frangible bullet. I am a huge fan of Barnes XLC's on Elk but I have had concerns about shots on whitetails in thick woods where the bullet passed through at such an angle where not much energy was left in the animal and not much blood was left on the ground to track it. Excellent post! Many thanks for sharing!
Last edited by Angus1895; 06/15/14.
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I wasn't quite as convinced Jorgel as to the superiority of those X Bullets. Do you think that the results necessarily indicate the X Bullets will kill more quickly and certainly?
What is your criteria for superiority?
The X Bullets aren't near as popular in this country. Probably because their mandatory use has not been legislated anywhere here. (Yet)
The Barnes X/TSX/TTSX line of bullets has grown over the past 20+ years from a curiosity to a force because people that hunt with them like the performance. I was an early adopter and they were a novelty the first time I hunted with them in RSA. Game went down fast and hard enough to turn the snickers and comments of derision from the smart-assed Afrikaner PH's into interest. A few years of seeing other clients in the field with those bullets turned the interest into admiration.
This is not to say that Nosler Partition isn't very good or that AB's will not perform, it is just that the Barnes seems to do the job as well or better every single time.
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My brother is heading to New Mexico this week to put a hole in a big bull elk, using 168 grain BTs from his .30-06. It will be interesting to see if he catches the bullet.
P
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if i have the 168s loaded in my 308 at 2750 would that be good enough for bears that weigh 500 lbs when im shooting them at really close range. i have partitiions loaded but they dont shoot as well.
if i have the 168s loaded in my 308 at 2750 would that be good enough for bears that weigh 500 lbs when im shooting them at really close range. i have partitiions loaded but they dont shoot as well.
Shoot them in the vitals and you'll have a very dead bear, quickly.
P
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Excellent information here. More than a lifetime of experience in one thread. Amazing. Thanks to everyone involved.
PS. As someone that was hunting with a 300 mag and 30/06 many years ago I remember two bullet jacket thicknesses being available from Barnes. The .032 jacket for standard .30 caliber cartridges and the .049 jacket for magnums. It is not really fair to expect the .032 jacket bullet to perform at magnum velocities. It was never designed to do that. It would do much better if impact velocity were reduced 300-400 fps.
Last edited by swampshooter; 12/16/14. Reason: additional information
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My brother is heading to New Mexico this week to put a hole in a big bull elk, using 168 grain BTs from his .30-06. It will be interesting to see if he catches the bullet.
P
Update, big bull down, 3 shots, caught two bullets.
Range 158 yards, MV 2815. First shot impacted on the left side of the chest under the scapula, through the lungs, punched a hole in the right scapula, stopped under the hide. Weighed 111.4 grains, expanded to 0.772".
Second shot was slightly behind the first and exited. The bull swapped ends after the second shot.
Third shot was high shoulder and down he went. Through the top of the shoulder and took out the spine. Bullet weighed 91.0 grains and measured 0.657".
Not bad.
P
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Well friends, here is part 5. Lots of bullets tested (22 this time) and some results really surprised me. Just as a reminder, all the 30 cal and 6.5 bullets were tested with cow bones as outlined above and the 6mm bullets got deer bones.
Bullet: 220gr Nosler Partition Penetration: 13.5" Weight retention: 42.3gr (19.2%) (No, that's not a typo. The rear core was not with the bullet when it was recovered.) Expansion diameter: .411" Impact speed: ~2725fps
Bullet: 127gr Barnes LRX Penetration: 14" Weight retention: 116.4gr (91.7%) Expansion diameter: .849" (Bullet was recovered facing sideways which is why that petal bent out and has such a large expanded diameter) Impact speed: ~2825fps
Here is a picture of the 185gr Matrix bonded that disintegrated. It had to be seated very deep in the case as it has a rather long bearing surface. That's 20 thou off my lands.
3100fps+ impact speeds into bone is certainly a varsity test! Appreciate the effort as your tests are as insightful as any I've seen. I am a big fan of those Trophy Bonded Tip bullets. If they would only sell them as components! I've certainly tried to talk them out of a couple hundred 200gn .338 cal TBTs.
I really like that 150 grain TTSX. I have been thinking that I could just load that bullet in my 30-06, 300 WSM, 300 win, and 300 ultra and be done playing with bullets.
How simple it would be to load 150 grain BT for practice and 150 grain TTSX for hunting in all my .30 caliber guns...
The Eastmans crew did an elk bullet test/story a year or two ago. You know,the Core Lokt cut the biggest wound channel. Pretty nice looking mushroom too. It didn't have the most penetration,but didn't do bad for a cheap bullet.The Federal Premium Partition went the deepest. If memory serves me. At any rate.If all a fella could afford was Core Lokt ammo/bullets,he wouldn't have to make many excuses.
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this is an amazing thread with lots of great info,pointing out the results of a good selection of hunting bullets many of us use, yet I can,t help looking back and pointing out that that 265 grain hard cast bullet, you might have listed partly, as a bit of humor, seems to produce a good deal better results than the vast majority of the far more expensive and faster production projectiles listed, I hunt with a lee 310 grain hard cast bullet over 21 grains of H110 powder,in both my 44 mag marlin carbine and my 10" S&W revolver,and Ive tried the ranch dog 44 bullet referred too, and the LEE design in the 310 grain , cast from 95% WW alloy and 5% pure tin generally out performs that slightly lighter projectile. yeah admittedly comparing a hard cast 310 grain launched at maybe 1500fps from a carbine vs a jacketed projectile that launched at 2700fps-3300fps is comparing apples to oranges. but it also points out that higher projectile speed and lower projectile weight, used to flatten trajectory's may not be overly helpful when trying to maximize penetration. yes, I.m sure theres a huge percentage of the guys reading this that are absolutely convinced their super fast caliber choice is ideal,and NO! I'm not suggesting your current choice or mine in elk rifles needs to be changed. and theres little doubt that a 270 win or 7mm mag or 300 mag can make hitting game out past 300 yards far easier.but like Ive stated before , Ive shot almost all my deer and elk over the last 45 years at well under 300 yards and the vast majority at probably 120 yards or LESS. now Im not giving up my 30/06,375 H&H or 340 WBY, for my 44 mag carbine ,on any elk hunts, but the testing does make me think , that its hardly the handicap that most guys would have you believe, or that a 450 marlin pushing a 405 grain bullet at 1900 fps would be a bad choice either.
This is a great thread. Thanks for all the effort kman! (I've done a bit of testing as well myself so I know how much trouble - and fun- it can be!)
I would add a few comments of my own regarding some of the comments made earlier in the thread. One is that bullets which "shed" when contacting heavy bone need not be dismissed outright since heavy joint bone really is about the worst case scenario. On the flip side, knowing what a bullet also does way out yonder- or conditions which simulate same, are also a very good idea. Granted, there are people who hunt in some rather controlled conditions perhaps, but I don't happen to know any of them.
I happen to like them which work in all-purpose modes the best.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
Keep coming back to this every time I'm looking for new bullets to try. Since I need some .308 to try, I was looking at those. No one remarked on how well the 140gr Hornady BTHP did, penetrating a bit more than a 168 BT and expanding almost as much. If they give the accuracy I expect from them, they'd be a great economical choice. I think those and the 165 GMX are the ones to try from this batch. Maybe the 130 TTSX too, although I won't be able to approach the speed they were tested at. Great thread though, hopefully one day we'll be treated to a part 3!
Part 3 is on page 7, part 4 is on page 9, and part 5 is on page 14. I really wish I could put them all in post number 1 but it won't let me do that. Not very easy to keep track of what page stuff is on when you have several pages worth in a thread.
Thanks for all the kind words from all of you.
Originally Posted by xxclaro
Keep coming back to this every time I'm looking for new bullets to try. Since I need some .308 to try, I was looking at those. No one remarked on how well the 140gr Hornady BTHP did, penetrating a bit more than a 168 BT and expanding almost as much. If they give the accuracy I expect from them, they'd be a great economical choice. I think those and the 165 GMX are the ones to try from this batch. Maybe the 130 TTSX too, although I won't be able to approach the speed they were tested at. Great thread though, hopefully one day we'll be treated to a part 3!
Keep coming back to this every time I'm looking for new bullets to try.
I do the same. This is some of the most objective testing I have seen on projectiles, and have used it several times to make a final decision on what to shoot in my hunting rifles.
Hell...Reloading/Shooting are still my favorite things to do,besides play in the box the kids came in.................
have to tag this. handiest thread I've ever seen on the fire.
I owe Kman a cold beer.
First teach a child to love God, second teach him to love family, third teach him to fish and hunt and by the time he is in his teens no dope dealer under the sun can teach him anything. Cotton Cordell
The Trophy Bonded’s had a good showing too. I’ve had excellent performances from both the TSX’s and the TTSX’s but decided to try The N E-tip’s this year (why?).
The E-tips look to behind the TSX’s a good bit in penetration. Different alloys I presume or maybe slight design differences.
Very nice test and good, clear write up. I did something similar with 338 bullets in the 90’s. A lot of work but fun and very telling.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I regret the day that I ever thought that a Barnes TSX from my 7mm-08 was a good soft tissue whitetail bullet. A tough, minimally expanding deep penetrating bullet through 12" of deer soft lung tissue does not equal a quick killing deer bullet.
My other auto is a .45
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory
This conversation is why some of the best gun writing that exists today is right here around the fire. It's a privilege to listen, Kman, your testing and report stands with the best writing of the magazines before they went to transcribing ad copy.
I read this with admiration couple years ago... I’ve been thinking bout dusting off the reloading equipment and searched the post out again. Outstanding work and tremendous public service. Thanks KMan.
Outstanding thread! Thank you for all of the hard and messy work. Not just the testing but the photography. We all appreciate the time you took to put this together. This is reminiscent of the testing that two of my favorite gun writers used to do - Finn Aagaard and Bob Hagel. Their articles and books had very informative and showed photos of the bullets and results. Of course many of these modern bullets were not available back then. Again thanks for all of your labor! This is very good work.
while I love the test, I looked at the results, and was rather shocked,as too the results my favorite bullet in 30 caliber produced in the test. I found listed as, well, it was damn near the worst listed! performance..sucked in that test,..then I thought thru decades of results Ive seen on deer and elk and having had zero failures it occurred to me that Ive never shot an elk in the shoulder, and neither has anyone else I hunt with,tried punching holes in shoulder joint,s. Id point out that when you shoot a deer or elk deliberately in the shoulder joint, your sure to loose a good deal of that shoulder,meat.
a 200 speer 30 cal launched from several of the camps 30/06 rifles, has a very good track record,dealing with ,punching thru the lungs and heart area of game, it has for decades produced very dead elk and deer! the test is certainly interesting, but after using a bullet with complete success for decades in a 30/06 I just can,t jump on the premium bullet band wagon, and abandon a well known productive tool that we have used successfully for many years.the common 30/06 is a very frequent choice among the hunters I know and in skilled hands its fully adequate in most conditions when used to kill deer and elk, easily filling the requirements and with darn few perceived or actual limitations doing so..
Old post I know, but this thread is worthy of a bump from time to time.
I too was surprised the 30 cal Speer didn't fare better, but some interpretation of the test method and results is worth considering. Indeed, per kman's opening post to the thread, "This is not scientific, valid, don't throw out the bullets you've been using for 30 years etc. I did this to satisfy my own curiosity and as much as it sucks to haul a bathtub full of wet heavy newspaper around, it's also fun."
One thing to note is the velocity of impact is 2800+ fps. That's faster than a .30-06 can sling it and more in the territory of the 300 WSM and magnums. It's too bad the test couldn't have included some slower velocities but kman was after worst case stress testing really. The speer may have fared much better at 2500-2600 fps or less. A lot of work and expense went into it, but even at the speed tested, each case was a sample of one. 5 shots might have yielded more robust results (and more time, effort and expense. Easy to say typing away on the keyboard...). For instance, the relative angle of impact (orientation of the bone joint and bullet nose) might affect total penetration. Another thought to consider is that even 3" of penetration beyond the bone and tissue might have yielded a dead animal with bone fragments acting as shrapnel in the heart lung cavity. I don't know how well wet paper media compares to live tissue.
I was surprised that the Hornady 190 BTSP outperformed it by the margin it did although it didn't excel at weight retention either, but penetration was decent. Seems like cup core boat tails have the reputation of coming apart more easily than their plain base counterparts. I personally avoid shoulder shots but wouldn't rule one out if I didn't think another opportunity would present itself.
Thanks Kman, the results are very interesting. Thinking of flinging some E-tips this summer: 6.5 120, and 7mm 140 and 150. Would be interested to see your test with those bullets.
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.” ALDO LEOPOLD
Outstanding work kman! Exactly the thread I've been looking for. Except all Photobucket embedded and clicked links show "Photo currently not available".
Outstanding work kman! Exactly the thread I've been looking for. Except all Photobucket embedded and clicked links show "Photo currently not available".
Outstanding work kman! Exactly the thread I've been looking for. Except all Photobucket embedded and clicked links show "Photo currently not available".
Anybody else experiencing that problem?
The thread was started 12 years ago.
And photobucket cut off free hosting some years back
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