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#7083596 - 11/17/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
R_H_Clark Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 5441
Loc: NW Alabama
I think they all have good information as well as things that work better for them.There are certin things that will benefit everyone and certin things that folks have to adapt and change to better fit their style,skill level,or even physical limitations.

My main criticism of Asbell is his squat and turn technique.Everyone I've personally seen try to use it,contorted their body into a completly uncomfortable and unstable position to shoot.It clearly had a negative effect on their accuracy.As I said it may have been more of a translation problem than a problem with form.

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#7083958 - 11/17/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: DanAdair]
BradArnett Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 2297
Loc: Northern Mi.
Originally Posted By: DanAdair
shoot farther...

I can't help but notice that 3 under shooters are usually 20 yard warriors


TFF Dan! I'm a 3-under 20yd warrior.......well, 3-under 30yd warrior really. (grin)

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#7084179 - 11/17/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: R_H_Clark]
Ghostinthemachine Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/23/11
Posts: 12968
Loc: Minnysoda
Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
I think they all have good information as well as things that work better for them.There are certin things that will benefit everyone and certin things that folks have to adapt and change to better fit their style,skill level,or even physical limitations.

My main criticism of Asbell is his squat and turn technique.Everyone I've personally seen try to use it,contorted their body into a completly uncomfortable and unstable position to shoot.It clearly had a negative effect on their accuracy.As I said it may have been more of a translation problem than a problem with form.


Asbell never says you have to squat like him. I think 'squat' is a derogatory term meant to ridicule anyway. He simply advocates getting into an athletic position.

I'm not saying Asbell or Welch or Viper or Eichler or anyone else has all the answers. Nobody does.

What I am saying, is to look at the teachers history as part of your overall assessment of the info brought forth.

It's very clear to me that 'Viper' Camera has never shot anything but 20 yard NFAA rounds INDOORS, in Long Island NY. He shoots lightweight bows, and has stated that he holds at draw for 10 seconds, which is ridiculous for the hunting archer. He;s deliberately confused about POA, gap, and instinctive techniques, and is a rude blowhard with nothing to back up his claims a guru, except said ego.

I prefer to listen to people that are hunting archers, and have been there and done that.

YMMV

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#7084370 - 11/17/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
ribka Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 4845
I use modified ASbell method and has been effective for hunting. And Fred is a heck of a nice guy too.

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#7086502 - 11/18/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: BradArnett]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 23442
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: BradArnett
Originally Posted By: DanAdair
shoot farther...

I can't help but notice that 3 under shooters are usually 20 yard warriors


TFF Dan! I'm a 3-under 20yd warrior.......well, 3-under 30yd warrior really. (grin)





Damn nice buck there BA, I only have a 60 lb doe at 9 yards to my traditional bow hunting credit, but I'll get there. wink

Gunner
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"I Walk Alone"

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#7089337 - 11/19/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: BradArnett]
DanAdair Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 7190
Loc: NW Montucky
Originally Posted By: BradArnett
Originally Posted By: DanAdair
shoot farther...

I can't help but notice that 3 under shooters are usually 20 yard warriors


TFF Dan! I'm a 3-under 20yd warrior.......well, 3-under 30yd warrior really. (grin)





Brad, that picture is evidence that you know how to shoot a longbow. 3 under works very well for a lot of guys, my point was never to the contrary. But it does seem to be most prevalent with guys that shoot very accurately at shorter yardages, and there's nothing wrong with that in a bowhunting environment.

I shoot as many 3D shoots as I can every year, and I do okay at it. A good 3D course will make even the best of them take shots that they NEVER would hunting. Yardages can be longer. I only ever got my ass kicked by one buy that shot 3 under. Come on up to Montucky the first weekend of May for the Fawn Creek traditional shoot, we'll drink a couple gallons of been and discuss all this smile


The only two shoots I didn't get hardware was the TBM fun shoot in Lewistown and the Montana State shoot, where I placed 4th

I haven't punched a tag with a recurve, that had horns on it since 2006 frown
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#7092637 - 11/20/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: DanAdair]
BradArnett Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 2297
Loc: Northern Mi.
Dan, I know you can shoot, I've seen your posts on the other site. My downfall to shooting 3-under is my yardages. I am comfortable inside 25yds on critters and only to 30 on targets. I pretty much never shoot farther than that. My buddies who shoot split all tend to practice at further distances than i do. I also believe that shooting far tightens up their form and improves their "short" game as well. My post was in jest, but in my limited circle what you said is true.
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#7095394 - 11/21/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: BradArnett]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 23442
Loc: Oklahoma
Took my Montana Longbow to the Butcher this evening to pick-up a pair of deer, he's a Bowsmith too, my draw length with tab and index finger anchored in the corner of my mouth is exactly 31"s, draw weight at 31"s measures at 62 lbs.

Do any of you men think this is too much for a 66" bow, I want to shoot it a lot and dont want to damage it?

Thanks,
Gunner
_________________________
"I Walk Alone"

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#7097784 - 11/21/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: gunner500]
DanAdair Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 7190
Loc: NW Montucky
Brad, I haven't shot a big game animal past 30 with a recurve ever in my life. The only time I'd take a shot on game farther is if the first arrow didn't go as planned and that was my only option. There's nothing wrong with a 3 under hold... I do agree about shooting at longer yardages, if you practice a lot at 50 (and I'll admit that I don't do it much anymore) shots at 25 are much easier.

Gunner, You aren't going to hurt that bow any. Fear not, if you keep up with the trad bow thing, some day you'll drop at least 1K on something fancy and custom. My Silvertip that's in the works will be an easy 1500 before I'm done.
_________________________
I'm Irish...

Of course I know how to patch drywall

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#7109863 - 11/25/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: DanAdair]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 23442
Loc: Oklahoma
Thanks Dan, have since spoken to Dan out at Montana Bows and he mirrored your comments.

Gunner
_________________________
"I Walk Alone"

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#7112770 - 11/26/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: gunner500]
DanAdair Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 7190
Loc: NW Montucky
Dan Toelke is the for real deal. If I ever went Longbow, it'd be one of his. I've shot piles of his bows, they're slick.

I'm just a recurve kind of guy, that's all there is to it.
_________________________
I'm Irish...

Of course I know how to patch drywall

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#7116831 - 11/27/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: DanAdair]
butchlambert1 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 5538
Loc: Poetry, Texas

This is Pat's story.


I used the all yew Vixen longbow and a Grizzly broadhead to tag this young fellow..
















My Bud has several long bows. In the thread below shows him with a piggie last week I think.


Edited by butchlambert1 (11/27/12)

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#7222130 - 12/24/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: butchlambert1]
Scott Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/04/02
Posts: 987
Loc: Russell, PA
A little late to the fire on this one but my form is similar to Barry Wensel - split finger, middle finger on tooth behind eye tooth, slight natural cant, and FOCUS on single point. When it feels right, it goes. If I start seeing the arrow, I screw up. Shooting golf balls or tennis balls in the yard is awesome practice as it stumpin'.
Byron Ferguson's "Become the arrow" is a good read. Masters of the barebow are good DVD's to see other's form. Paul Brunner had a video out with some form info also but I cannot recall the title.
This years buck:

My 'tips:



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#7238479 - 12/29/12 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: gunner500]
brinky72 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2934
Yep. Nose slap too. I make sure I shave regularly as we'll to avoid chaff from pulling out whiskers.
_________________________
"I did what I was told to do, as well as I could" Simo Häyhä
AKA "White death"

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#7262599 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: brinky72]
centershot Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 2806
Loc: Southern Idaho
Ghostinthemachine, I feel the need to call BS on your posts berating Anthony Camera. There seems to be a 'new' bunch of experts that think you have to shoot in the IBO to be able to shoot a trad bow. If you have read his book you would realise that most of his shooting was done in the 70's and 80's. He now just shoots and coaches mainly indoors by choice. In the book he plainly states that he hunted, just like most of us. I get so tired of the jealosy shown on Leatherwall and a couple of other trad sites I want to puke. Just because the guy took the time to organize and explain trad archery and put it in a book and they did not. These jokers say that Tony came up with these ideas and methods of how to shoot, in reality (if they would read the book before bashing it) they would soon learn that he is using methods as old as anyone can remember. He's not taking credit for the methods taught, just orgaized them so they are in one place and easy to understand. Until any of these 'experts' produce a book - "Shooting the Stickbow" is the gold standard. FWIW I have read Asbells books as well as Ferguson's and many others, none are anywere near as informative and complete when it comes to shooting and tuning traditional gear.

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#7262813 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: brinky72]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 23442
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: brinky72
Yep. Nose slap too. I make sure I shave regularly as we'll to avoid chaff from pulling out whiskers.


laugh, Thanks Brink, i'll remember that one too.

Gunner
_________________________
"I Walk Alone"

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#7262874 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: centershot]
Ghostinthemachine Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/23/11
Posts: 12968
Loc: Minnysoda
Originally Posted By: centershot
Ghostinthemachine, I feel the need to call BS on your posts berating Anthony Camera. There seems to be a 'new' bunch of experts that think you have to shoot in the IBO to be able to shoot a trad bow. If you have read his book you would realise that most of his shooting was done in the 70's and 80's. He now just shoots and coaches mainly indoors by choice. In the book he plainly states that he hunted, just like most of us. I get so tired of the jealosy shown on Leatherwall and a couple of other trad sites I want to puke. Just because the guy took the time to organize and explain trad archery and put it in a book and they did not. These jokers say that Tony came up with these ideas and methods of how to shoot, in reality (if they would read the book before bashing it) they would soon learn that he is using methods as old as anyone can remember. He's not taking credit for the methods taught, just orgaized them so they are in one place and easy to understand. Until any of these 'experts' produce a book - "Shooting the Stickbow" is the gold standard. FWIW I have read Asbells books as well as Ferguson's and many others, none are anywere near as informative and complete when it comes to shooting and tuning traditional gear.


That's fine.

My posts stand and I won't even go back to look at what I wrote.. He hasn't hunted since the early 70s and only went out a couple of times back then. He 'coaches' people supposedly, and it's STRICTLY 20 yard NFAA rounds with extremely lightweight bows. He's never won a single thing in archery, that's simply a fact. I do like his info on tuning, mainly because I use AL arrows, just like he does.

If you like the book, that's fine. But people need to know some of the background of ANY self-proclaimed internet guru. That was my basic point.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. Tact aint one of my strongsuits.

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#7262986 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
Ghostinthemachine Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/23/11
Posts: 12968
Loc: Minnysoda
Here's a video that was on Bowsite a week ago. This shows why I think it's important to take advice from hunting archers. Viper would scoff at this technique, even mock and ridicule it. The result? A perfect shot on a giant buck.


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#7263039 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
centershot Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 2806
Loc: Southern Idaho
In just your last post you have contradicted your own comments. First you say he never hunted, now you say he only hunted a couple of times, book said he hunted quite a bit in his youth - I think you need to re-read the book.........do keep in mind it is a book on how to shoot a traditional bow using classic form. He very plainly states that varying from the basic form is fine, but it is wise to first learn to shoot in the most simple and repeatable manor. Do you disagree with that? How about I email this to viper and let him comment instead of you trying to put words in his mouth? There are absolutley some haters on Leatherwall and Tradgang - many of which I have ask if they have even read the book they so detest, most have not. I have even offered to puchase the book from them if they would read it and give it an objective look and still did not like it - no takers. Over and over they state that he has not won 3D's or this or that - Who cares? They are probably lucky he does not - with consistant form he would undoubtable whip most of them. He has modestly stated that he has shot AA Scores on the NFAA 300 round. Do you know what that amounts to? 23.3 points per 5 arrow end or a 3 1/2" group for 60 arrows at 20 yards - no hack can do that. If you want a book on Bowhunting, that is not the one. If you want a book on how to shoot and tune trad bows - that is by far the best I have seen.

BTW, that is a great video and a very nice buck. A 10-15 yard shot is really not a big deal though and that is where the 'Bowhunter Only' mentality gets crossed up with the book. Back up to 40 or 50 yards shooting with a humpped over, inconsistant cant and inconsistant draw length and you'll need all the black magic you can muster.

So why this hate for a guy you don't even know?


Edited by centershot (01/03/13)

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#7263060 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
brinky72 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2934
Like everything, "If it works for you, use it." I don't mock or ridicule anyones' technique if it works or even if it doesn't. Anyone that states that they or their method is the one and only way to do things is a moron and is setting themselves up for failure. I'm no expert on shooting bow trad or otherwise. I've been hunting a while now with a recurve and use what has proven effective for me. Might be odd to others but guess what. I'm the one shooting my deer/bear not anyone else. Experts to me are self important, close minded azzholes. just my two cents.
_________________________
"I did what I was told to do, as well as I could" Simo Häyhä
AKA "White death"

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#7263067 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: centershot]
Ghostinthemachine Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/23/11
Posts: 12968
Loc: Minnysoda
Originally Posted By: centershot
In just your last post you have contradicted your own comments. First you say he never hunted, now you say he only hunted a couple of times - I think you need to re-read the book.........do keep in mind it is a book on how to shoot a traditional bow using classic form. He very plainly states that varying from the basic form is fine, but it is wise to first learn to shoot in the most simple and repeatable manor. Do you disagree with that? How about I email this to viper and let him comment instead of you trying to put words in his mouth? You have been hanging around on Leatherwall and Tradgang too much.


Viper 'said' he hunted a couple of times in the '70s. I personally don't believe it.

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#7263139 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
centershot Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 2806
Loc: Southern Idaho
What make you believe that? And.........hunting is not for everyone. Should that mean that you can not shoot a bow and arrow and enjoy it?


Edited by centershot (01/03/13)

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#7263213 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: Ghostinthemachine]
brinky72 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2934
I'm not sure what would be wrong with his technique? I have a rough time shooting from a treestand with either a recurve or longbow. I'm always super conscious of where the lower limb is and have a tendency to shoot over because of it. I end up pulling slightly down on the arrow as I draw it back making it tilt up a wee bit on the shelf causing it to shoot high. Poor form on my part but I always do it trying not to bang up my bow from the lower limb hitting my stand or other stuff. Long story but I hunt on the ground now with more hits than misses vs hunting from a treestand.
_________________________
"I did what I was told to do, as well as I could" Simo Häyhä
AKA "White death"

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#7263239 - 01/03/13 Re: Traditional Bow Shooting [Re: centershot]
Ghostinthemachine Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/23/11
Posts: 12968
Loc: Minnysoda
Originally Posted By: centershot
What make you believe that? And.........hunting is not for everyone. Should that mean that you can not shoot a bow and arrow and enjoy it?


My dislike of Viper has nothing to do with whether or not he hunts, his book, or his technique. Hell, I like target archery too.

My dislike arises because he is a condescending prima donna that is rude to every poster that has the cajones to disagree with him. I say that after more than a decade's worth of exchanges with the man, and reading his generally pompous and ego driven words.

"Fred Bear basically sucked at shooting a bow", Viper proclaimed. Need I say more?

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