The only huge mistake he made was signing into law the largest tax increase in the history of the world . . . other than that he was one of the heroes from the Greatest Generation.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
Let's not forget, GHWB ordered the ban on importation of "assault weapons" in 1989 after the Stockton CA. shooting.........that ban is still in effect today.
I met GHWB at the Safari Club a few years back, a true gentleman.
What do you base your comments about GW on? The mortgage based security fiasco can be placed at the feet of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Their job was oversight and they failed to do their job. GW sent two letters of warning and was ignored.
I would choose either GHWB or GWB over the Kenyan any day.
As would any sane individual.
I was no big fan of either, until comparisons to the alternative entered the picture. I was NOT alone in that! And am no more now than then. That is a sentiment that has grown, spread, and strengthened. IMMENSELY!
Trouble is, and pay attention people cuz this is important, as that sentiment waxed the sanity I mention above waned... and now we are where we are.
Bottom line, Team R either has been and continues to be deliberately dense and stubborn to the extreme or they truly are the cluster f*** of dullards the left so loves to loath. And if they don't stop it we may as well settle in for a long, long run of dingleBarrys, Al Gawhores, Klintons, and Kerry pukes, because that's exactly what we're going to get.
The left will go off the deep end in deep left field and drag all the rest of us down with them, many cheering and applauding all the way, and I will blame Team R every step of the way for every single bit of it. And rightly so, too.
Please oh please dear God above, no more McDolerombushneycains. For ever and ever, Amen.
BAN THE RAINBOW FLAG! PERVERTS OFFEND ME!
"When is penguin season, daddy? I wanna go kill a penguin!" ---- 4 yr old Archerhuntress
I certainly did not agree with everything he did, but met him many times as I was in a White House support unit. The whole family are VERY nice people. I think very little of anyone who could actually hate them so. Disagree, yes. Hate? The elder Bush is an especially kind and warm gentlman - a real class act. Never found him to be any less than that.
I am sure you are right, but they have been very costly in terms of credibility of the Right and in fiscal terms.
Between them they waged 3 wars of which 2 are unfinished and 1 is the longest war ever fought by the United States.
George Ist paved the way for 2 Clinton administration and George IInd for 2 Barack Hussein Obama administrations!!!
If that is not enough to feel less that pleased by their actions, what would be??? Regardless of their gentlemanly characters, they have been disastrous.
Is it too ambitious or too naive to look for an honest politician? Or simply a useful one?
Reagan couldn't stand him....it was a political marriage.
Bush nominated David Souter..How the F did that happen!
Bush caved in on taxes and was beaten with "read my lips, no new taxes" on a repeated basis.
Bush Sr was a Republican version of Jimmy Carter.
Decent man..sure...but never should have been President.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Thomas Jefferson
GHWB gave us eight years of Clinton GWB gave us eight years of Obama Hell of a family legacy.
Tarheel101
No people will tamely surrender their Liberties when knowledge is diffusd and virtue is preservd. On the contrary, when people are ignorant, and debauchd in their manners they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of Invaders. Samuel Adams
The Bushes are elitist New Englanders, one of whom was pretty good at adopting a Texas accent to get elected. The latter was fairly conservative as a Governor but shed those trappings as President and gave us Homeland Security and two wars. The former gave us the original middle-eastern war an importation ban on assault weapons and Bill Clinton. The first time I ever heard the phrase "New World Order" was about the time Bush I was up for re-election.
I voted for Dubya twice and his daddy once. Perot convinced me to throw my vote away on Bush's second bid, thus insuring Clinton's election.
IMO they're both worthless. The guy who's in the Whitehouse now, you know, the one with all the "firsts"...first gay President, first illegal alien President, first President not legally qualified to hold office, first Muslim President, etc. is much, much worse than either, but it's like saying I got a lot better grade on this test than you did, when you got a 2% and I got a 30. Absolutely and positively the truth while neither grade even approaches passing.
Sr. doubled the national debt and Dubya doubled it again, both before the Arab did.
Bush 41 was a POS neocon who voted for gun control. Worse, he became a traitor when he stabbed Reagan in the back in favor of Gorby. He was a definite one-world-government proponent. He didn't lose because he raised taxes. He lost because of his new-world-order, which was code for one-world-government. I'm saddened to write that I voted for that neocon in'88. Hell, not even Reagan trusted him.
GHWB gave us eight years of Clinton GWB gave us eight years of Obama Hell of a family legacy.
Tarheel101
no, dumbphuck liberal voters gave us Clinton and Obama.
and the fact that either of those commies can get a majority of our electorate to the polls tells you what a fantasy it is to think a more right wing candidate could have defeated either one.
you don't vote for an Obama one day and then just have a freaking ephiphany and become a right winger.....these people are hopeless. and when it all falls down around them their solution will be.....more socialism. it always is.
GHWB's biggest problem was that he treated and dealt with other people as if they were gentlemen like he is.....it never got through to him until too late that the democrat thugs who ran Congress were no gentlemen....or in Patsy Schroeder's case, gentledykes.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
They can mock the Bush family all they want, as they attempt to make loud enough noise to drown out how stupid Bill Clinton, Geithner and Obama are.
Nobody's mocking anyone. I've merely told the truth. Bush 41 was a gun grabbing neocon who tried to shove one-world-government down our throats; not to mention that fact that Reagan never trusted the traitor.
I voted for Dubya twice and his daddy once. Perot convinced me to throw my vote away on Bush's second bid, thus insuring Clinton's election.
IMO they're both worthless.
so you'd have rather had Dukakis, Clinton, Gore, and Kerry?
it ain't a choice between your fantasy candidate and Bush...in the real world those were the choices. and BTW neither of the Bushes is elitist in the sense that they look down on other people, both are extremely down to earth normal guys who do normal guy stuff when they can. GHWB couldn't help it if he was a Senator's son....and that didn't help him much when he was an 18 year old carrier pilot either.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
Liberals such as Miles ought to know what a dangerous president Bush 41 was.
No liberal here and you did not answer my question. Are you Raisinhead with a new handle? Bush 41 was not near as dangerous as the one we have now and the world was a much better place back when he was President. At the time, he was the best man running and if he had beat Clinton the Democrats would not be as powerful as they currently are. My thoughts. YMMV miles
Liberals such as Miles ought to know what a dangerous president Bush 41 was.
No liberal here and you did not answer my question. Are you Raisinhead with a new handle? Bush 41 was not near as dangerous as the one we have now and the world was a much better place back when he was President. At the time, he was the best man running and if he had beat Clinton the Democrats would not be as powerful as they currently are. My thoughts. YMMV miles
Miles, you might fight to deny it, but you are a classic liberal democrat. You just can't pull the horsepower to figure it out.
He was my Commander in Chief and I will give him all the respect he earned from that position and a little more just for being a good man.
That's where it's at for me as well.
Bush 41 propagandized you into risking your life if order to preserve his homies, the Kuwaiti Royal Family's five trillion dollar net worth. Americans wanted no part of war with Iraq. Bush 41 duped Americans in to it. Pat Buchanan led the vanguard that Bush 41 was lying to Americans.
Americans wanted no part of a war that was none of our damned business. Bush 41 was perfectly willing to sacrifice your life in order to take care of his Kuwaiti homies.
Miles, you might fight to deny it, but you are a classic liberal democrat.
You are so far off base it is laughable. I see that you are ashamed to answer the question so I will take it as a yes that you are Raisinhead re-incarnated. miles
Raisinhead, you are just an Obama yes man trying to change the subject to a President from the past, to get people to quit looking at what this administration is doing. It will not work. miles
It's obama sucking [bleep] like you that's [bleep] up the country
Mike
And will probably cause me to die behind melted down barrels and piles of hot brass to boot.
Gunner
Gunner,
Check in to the Liberty Movement. It might be our last and best hope for restoring our once great country.
No one here, for the most part, differs materially. We all want to protect and defend the country our Founding Fathers gave to us. We have to identify its true enemy and unite in effort to defeat it. Getting us out of the UN and eliminating all foreign influence in our internal affairs; that is, preserving our sovereignty, is a good place to start.
So now the president you voted for by not voting is taking us to Africa.
No, the president you voted for by voting for a neocon RINO who had absolutely no chance of winning is taking us to Africa.
Romney was the product of MSM propaganda. MSM knew Romney had absolutely zero chance of whipping Obama. But it told you he did so you'd throw in with him consistent with MSM's scheme to reelect the Kenyan. If I am supposedly stupid, how did I figure it out? How was a stupid guy like me able to predict an Obama landslide?
The reason is because I know how MSM uses propaganda to effectuate its sinister agenda. A good rule of thumb is to believe the opposite of what MSM is telling you.
Laguna, as a card carrying GOP member, your logic frightens me to the bone. That, and it makes less sense than trying to follow Tim Geithner's economy repair methodology!!!
Laguna, as a card carrying GOP member, your logic frightens me to the bone. That, and it makes less sense than trying to follow Tim Geithner's economy repair methodology!!!
I am sure it does. Freedom is a scary concept for a lot of people. Liberty implies self-sufficiency, which is daunting to those preferring the comfort an omnipotent federal government. Even a lot of Republicans want the government to take care of them. But governmental largess comes at the expense of freedom.
I used to be a devout Republican until Hayley Barbour went sideways on Pat Buchanan, at authentic conservative. I didn't leave the Republican Party, it left me.
"A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...." ***Thomas Jefferson***
He was my Commander in Chief and I will give him all the respect he earned from that position and a little more just for being a good man.
Lest We Forget:
George H.W. Bush �On his 18th birthday he enlisted in the armed forces. The youngest pilot in the Navy when he received his wings, he flew 58 combat missions during World War II. On one mission over the Pacific as a torpedo bomber pilot he was shot down by Japanese antiaircraft fire and was rescued from the water by a U. S. submarine. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for bravery in action.� Copyright 2009 by the White House Historical Association.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Reagan couldn't stand him....it was a political marriage.
Bush nominated David Souter..How the F did that happen!
Bush caved in on taxes and was beaten with "read my lips, no new taxes" on a repeated basis.
Bush Sr was a Republican version of Jimmy Carter.
Decent man..sure...but never should have been President.
�In the 1980 Republican presidential primaries, Bush ran as a moderate candidate with years of experience. However, he was quickly overwhelmed by Ronald Reagan, the former governor of California. Reagan asked Bush to be his vice president to help attract moderates and bring foreign policy experience to the ticket. The Reagan-Bush ticket won handily in both 1980 and 1984. As vice president, Bush continued to expand his foreign policy experience and traveled widely.
He also became good friends with President Reagan, although he never became a close political confidant.
Bush was somewhat awestruck by Reagan's political skills, and according to some observers, was mystified by the latter's hold on the public imagination.� Copyright 2012 Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Or could it be that Bush saved his own butt while sacrificing the lives of his fellow crew members as was alleged by others in the squadron?
Many of his fellow aviators have said that Bush was actually a coward. But blue blooded insiders can write their own facts.
You can do the research and decide what to believe. I do know a war vet who is not reticent about calling Bush a coward. He has told me many times that he sacrificed the lives of his crew members to save his. Not my concept of a war hero. Audie Murphy is.
Reagan couldn't stand him....it was a political marriage.
Bush nominated David Souter..How the F did that happen!
Bush caved in on taxes and was beaten with "read my lips, no new taxes" on a repeated basis.
Bush Sr was a Republican version of Jimmy Carter.
Decent man..sure...but never should have been President.
�In the 1980 Republican presidential primaries, Bush ran as a moderate candidate with years of experience. However, he was quickly overwhelmed by Ronald Reagan, the former governor of California. Reagan asked Bush to be his vice president to help attract moderates and bring foreign policy experience to the ticket. The Reagan-Bush ticket won handily in both 1980 and 1984. As vice president, Bush continued to expand his foreign policy experience and traveled widely.
He also became good friends with President Reagan, although he never became a close political confidant.
Bush was somewhat awestruck by Reagan's political skills, and according to some observers, was mystified by the latter's hold on the public imagination.� Copyright 2012 Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia
Regan tabbed Bush to bring along Texas's Electoral College Vote.
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Thomas Jefferson
Sgt. Benevitiz was an authentic war hero. He left no one behind. I would have rather have had the privilege of meeting him than both Bushs and all neocons combined.
Neither Bush did exactly as I wanted. That being said both are class acts. Their wife's are my idea of what a First Lady should be. A far cry from the mooch we have now. Hasbeen
hasbeen (Better a has been than a never was!)
NRA Patron member Try to live your life where the preacher doesn't have to lie at your funeral
of course not, it's just made up horseshit like everything else that oozes out of him. yeah, right....he "knows a guy". or he's got one of his fringe web sites with some loon with a theory.
"Chester Mierzejewski, an old war buddy of Bush, who said he was angered by the "false assertions" made by candidate Bush when describing the incident, gave a different account. After 44 years of silence, Mierzejewski, who also was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, told the New York Post that Bush had abandoned his crew to death when there was another choice. He said he was approximately 100 feet in front of Bush's plane as the turret gunner for Squadron Commander Douglas Melvin's plane, "so close he could see in the cockpit" of Bush's bomber. Mierzejewski's close wartime buddy was one of the two crew members in Bush's plane.
According to Mierzejewski, the squadron was in a tight formation bombing raid against a Japanese radio installation on an island reported to be heavily fortified. He saw "a puff of smoke" come from Bush's plane which quickly disappeared and was certain only one man parachuted from the plane and that it was Bush, the pilot. Mierzejewski said the Avenger torpedo bomber was engineered so that it could successfully crash land on water and that Bush doomed his own crew by bailing out and leaving the bomber out of control.
Other World War II veterans also expressed concern about Bush parachuting out of the aircraft. "He had a moral obligation to put that plane in the water in an emergency landing," Robert Flood, a former B-17 bombardier told the press. "He violated the primary rule for a captain of a multi-crew aircraft: The pilot never leaves the airplane with anybody in it
Although the heart of Bush's story about the incident remains the same, Mierzejewski is adamant Bush's account is not the truth and blames Bush for the abandonment and deaths of both men. "I think he could have saved those lives, if they were alive. I don't know that they were, but at least they had a chance if he had attempted a water landing," Mierzejewski said."
Lest We Forget: 58 combat missions, 126 carrier landings, and 1,228 flight hours during World War II.
George H.W. Bush is exactly right. In the video he plainly states that he is no hero, that getting shot down is not heroic.
George H.W. Bush is exactly right. No one has all the answers. Certainly eyewitnesses do not have all the answers, they have only one outside view of what happened about any event. �they have no way to determine how much time anyone can stay sitting in a cockpit about to turn into a fireball. They are like spectators at a bullfight�only the man in the arena knows.
Anyone who makes claim because they happen to find words that agree with them and offer them as proof is a prime definition of a troll. There are plenty of words that do not agree with the troll. Here is another account of that action,�that day:
By JO2 Timothy J Christmann Naval Aviation News 67 (March-April 1985): 12-15 Forty-one years ago, a 20-year-old Naval Aviator named George Bush embarked on a mission which he would later describe as one of the most dramatic moments of his life -- an experience which gave him a "sobering understanding of war and peace." "There's no question that it broadened my horizons," Vice President Bush said recently. "And there's no question that today it has a real impact on me as I give advice to the President."
It was September 2, 1944. Lieutenant Junior Grade George Bush was a pilot with Torpedo Squadron Fifty-One (VT-51 ) aboard the aircraft carrier USS San Jacinto (CVL-30), a light carrier which was deployed in the North Pacific
Just two years earlier, on June 12, 1942, Bush had graduated from high school and joined the Navy as a seaman, second class. But, in less than a year, he completed flight training at NAS Corpus Christi, Texas, was commissioned an ensign, and went on to fly TBM Avengers with VT-51. For a time, he was the youngest pilot in Naval Aviation.
On that sunny morning of September, Bush woke aboard San Jacinto prepared to fly one of the 58 attack missions he would fly during the war. However, this particular mission would end a little differently than his other 57.
The target was a Japanese radio station on ChiChi Jima, located about 600 miles southwest of Japan in the Bonin Islands. For a time, the enemy on that tiny island had been intercepting U.S. military radio transmissions and warning Japan and occupied enemy islands of impending American air strikes. It had to be destroyed
Before 0900, Bush and two aircrewmen (his regular radioman, Radioman Second Class John Delaney, and substitute gunner Lieutenant Junior Grade William White) strapped themselves inside an Avenger and catapulted off San Jacinto. Three other bomb-laden VT-51 aircraft, as well as a number of VF-51's F6F Hellcats, joined the mission.
"I was replaced by Ltjg. White at the last minute," said Leo W. Nadeau, then an ordnanceman second class who flew as Bush's gunner on all but two of his attack missions. "As intelligence officer, White wanted to go along to observe the island." Nadeau, who was 20 at the time, added that the day before, Bush, Delaney and he had flown into ChiChi Jima and destroyed an enemy gun emplacement.
"The antiaircraft (AA) fire on that island was the worst we had seen," he said. "I don't think the AA fire in the Philippines was as bad as that."
"ChiChi was a real feisty place to fly into," Stanley Butchart, a former VT-51 pilot and friend of Bush, agreed. "As I remember, it had gun emplacements hidden in the mountain areas. In order to get down to the radio facility, you had to fly past the AA batteries, which was risky business."
As expected, projectiles belched from the enemy's AA batteries as soon as Bush and his squadron mates were over the island. Tiny black puffs of smoke thickened around his plane as he approached the target and dove steeply -- so steeply that Bush felt like he was standing on his head. But before he reached the radio facility the plane was hit.
Ltjg. Bush, who felt the plane "lift" from the hit, continued his dive toward the target and dropped his payload. The four 500-pound bombs exploded, causing damaging hits. For his courage and disregard for his own safety in pressing home his attack, he was later awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross.
Bush maneuvered the Avenger over the ocean with the hope it would make the journey back to San Jacinto. But the plane began to blaze and clouds of smoke soon enveloped the cockpit. Choking and gasping for air, Bush and one of his aircrewmen wriggled out of the plane and leaped from about 1,500 feet. His other crewman, dead or seriously injured from the blast, went down with the Avenger.
Bush parachuted safely into the water, dangerously close to the shore. Unfortunately, the aircrewman fell helplessly to his death because his parachute failed to open properly.
No one ever knew which one bailed out with Mr. Bush," said Nadeau, now a building contractor in Ramona, Calif. "I would assume it was Delaney, because as the radioman, he would go out first to leave room for the gunner to climb down out of the turret and put his chute on.
"There wasn't room in the turret for the gunner to wear a parachute. As a gunner, my parachute hung on the bulkhead of the plane near Delaney. We set up an escape procedure where he was supposed to hand me my chute and jump, and then I was to follow him. The procedure took a couple of seconds."
Nadeau added that he "didn't know what to think" when he heard the plan was shot down.
"I felt bad that Delaney and Mr. White had died," he said. "I just had the feeling that had I been there, Delaney and I might have both made it out alive -- that is, unless one of us got hit by AA. Delaney and I had practiced our escape procedure constantly. He might have stayed to help White get out of the turret and delayed too long. it's one of those things that never leaves your mind. Why didn't I go that day?"
Vice-President Bush said that he chose to finish the bombing run rather than bail out early because as a Naval Aviator, he was disciplined to do that. "We were trained to complete our runs no matter what the obstacle," he remarked.
Once in the water, Bush unleashed his inflatable yellow lifeboat, crawled in, and paddled quickly out to sea. The Japanese sent out a boat to capture him. Luckily, Lieutenant Doug West, a fellow VT-51 Avenger pilot, strafed the boat. "He stopped it," said Bush.
Circling fighter planes transmitted Bush's plight and position to the U.S. submarine Finback (SS-230), patrolling 15 to 20 miles from the island "This was 1944 and there were very few enemy targets left," said retired Capt. Robert R.Williams Jr., 73, who was Finback's commanding officer then. "So, the main reason for our being on patrol was to act as lifeguard and pick up aviators."
According to Lieutenant Commander Dean Spratlin, Finback's executive officer at the time, the submarine had an area of 200 to 300 square miles to cover, which included Iwo Jima, ChiChi Jima and HaHa Jima in the Bonin Islands.
A few hours after transmitting Bush's position, Williams, then a commander, sighted him on the periscope about seven miles away from ChiChi. He ordered the submarine to the surface. "I saw this thing coming out of the water and I said to myself, 'Jeez, I hope it's one of ours,'" Bush remarked.
Spratlin, who is now in the real estate business in Atlanta, Ga., said he and Williams weren't worried about surfacing in daylight so close to an enemy island because they had several U.S. fighters flying cover.
"We had a big sub (312 feet long), so we rigged out the bowplanes which gave us a platform where we could step down and pull him aboard," added Spratlin.
While several of Finback's crewmen were helping Bush aboard, Ensign Bill Edwards, the sub's first lieutenant and photographic officer, filmed the rescue. The 8mm film later was sent to Bush while he was a congressman from Texas and was shown recently as part of a biographical sketch during the Republican National Convention.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Getting shot down is not heroic. Saving your crew members might not be either. It might be was he was supposed to do. Yet he chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives. That's a coward.
It sounds like the correct procedure was most likely followed. Then again I am not trying to make a case against a war hero, while trying to deflect criticism against the Muslim. miles
Getting shot down is not heroic. Saving your crew members might not be either. It might be was he was supposed to do. Yet he chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives. That's a coward.
But I'm good with whatever you choose to believe.
He chose to finish the bombing run. Sounds pretty cowardly to a dip [bleep].
Getting shot down is not heroic. Saving your crew members might not be either. It might be was he was supposed to do. Yet he chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives. That's a coward.
But I'm good with whatever you choose to believe.
He chose to finish the bombing run. Sounds pretty cowardly to a dip [bleep].
I'm sure it does to you. But then again, you assuredly do not know what his duty was. His duty was to protect his crew members. He was derelict in that duty. I'm sure his blue blood lineage kept him from court martial. If another pilot had done what Bush did, what would you suppose would have happened to him?
It sounds like the correct procedure was most likely followed. Then again I am not trying to make a case against a war hero, while trying to deflect criticism against the Muslim. miles
How in God's name was Bush a hero? He did what he singed up to do and what he was paid to do, except for abandoning his crew members. How many pilots didn't return and were not accorded hero status?
after you've flown a torpedo bomber into Japanese AA and flown a plane that's on fire for a while, I'll maybe give a rip about your opinion on heroes, loser.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
after you've flown a torpedo bomber into Japanese AA and flown a plane that's on fire for a while, I'll maybe give a ratfuck about your opinion on heroes, loser.
I thought you were sending you son to a gay bath house? BTW, is he gay? If not, why in God's name would you send him to a gay bath house?
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service. I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes.
Which branch of the service did you serve in, Laguna, to judge the man? Which armed conflicts did you take part in? I'm assuming, based only on a summation of your past comments, that you're of an age to have overlapped at least a couple.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
Getting shot down is not heroic. Saving your crew members might not be either. It might be was he was supposed to do. Yet he chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives. That's a coward.
But I'm good with whatever you choose to believe.
He chose to finish the bombing run. Sounds pretty cowardly to a dip [bleep].
I'm sure it does to you. But then again, you assuredly do not know what his duty was. His duty was to protect his crew members. He was derelict in that duty. I'm sure his blue blood lineage kept him from court martial. If another pilot had done what Bush did, what would you suppose would have happened to him?
His duty was to take out the objective dip [bleep] it's clear you've seen very little service time.
Which branch of the service did you serve in, Laguna, to judge the man? Which armed conflicts did you take part in? I'm assuming, based only on a summation of your past comments, that you're of an age to have overlapped at least a couple. ============
He's a low level government worker bee who couldn't cut it in the competitive world. He's a coward who tries to elevate his lower than whale schit status by pretending to be something he isn't.
He's a Renee and while Renee could someday grow up,this ragoofus fraud has wasted his entire life being a malcontented, under-achieving loser.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails. William Arthur Ward
after you've flown a torpedo bomber into Japanese AA and flown a plane that's on fire for a while, I'll maybe give a rip about your opinion on heroes, loser.
Vincent Bugliosi was absolutely right. Scott O'Grady was not a hero. He was shot down doing his job. The true heroes were the men who volunteered to go in harm's way to rescue him.
Steve, I don't expect you to understand Bugliosi's thesis because he's a real deal trail attorney. He was ranked as the best attorney in America, while you were ranked best gay bath house attorney.
Getting shot down is not heroic. Saving your crew members might not be either. It might be was he was supposed to do. Yet he chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives. That's a coward.
But I'm good with whatever you choose to believe.
He chose to finish the bombing run. Sounds pretty cowardly to a dip [bleep].
I'm sure it does to you. But then again, you assuredly do not know what his duty was. His duty was to protect his crew members. He was derelict in that duty. I'm sure his blue blood lineage kept him from court martial. If another pilot had done what Bush did, what would you suppose would have happened to him?
His duty was to take out the object dip [bleep] it's clear you've seen very little service time.
But say aren't you trolling a little fast?
Are you trying to convey that doing one's duty, doing what one agreed to do and was paid to do, makes him a hero? Using your reasoning or lack thereof, my garbage man is a hero. God only knows how many hazardous materials he has to handle every day.
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service. I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes.
Which branch of the service did you serve in, Laguna, to judge the man? Which armed conflicts did you take part in? I'm assuming, based only on a summation of your past comments, that you're of an age to have overlapped at least a couple.
George
NH K9,
Your reasoning is deeply flawed. Since you've never been president, you're incapable of judging the "man".
LOL I say again you're trolling way to fast and using crap for bait.
But you're biting crap bait.
Really this has been at least more intertaining than the rain. But say you'd better quit patting yourself on the ass your friends the few you have are surely beginning to wonder.
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service. I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes.
Which branch of the service did you serve in, Laguna, to judge the man? Which armed conflicts did you take part in? I'm assuming, based only on a summation of your past comments, that you're of an age to have overlapped at least a couple.
George
NH K9,
Your reasoning is deeply flawed. Since you've never been president, you're incapable of judging the "man".
The president, in theory, is a public servant just as I am. Thus, we are there to be judged, both our results and how we accomplish them.
I don't hold those in the military to that level of judgement as I was never at that level of military service. They "serve" but not in the same manner.
I will assume, due to your ducking yet another direct question, that you never served. I'm sure GHWB is deeply concerned with your labeling him a coward.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service. I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes.
Which branch of the service did you serve in, Laguna, to judge the man? Which armed conflicts did you take part in? I'm assuming, based only on a summation of your past comments, that you're of an age to have overlapped at least a couple.
George
NH K9,
Your reasoning is deeply flawed. Since you've never been president, you're incapable of judging the "man".
The president, in theory, is a public servant just as I am. Thus, we are there to be judged, both our results and how we accomplish them.
I don't hold those in the military to that level of judgement as I was never at that level of military service. They "serve" but not in the same manner.
I will assume, due to your ducking yet another direct question, that you never served. I'm sure GHWB is deeply concerned with your labeling him a coward.
George
I have never served, but that's a red herring in effort to discredit my ability to judge his conduct. I did not need to serve to know Congressional Medal of Honor winners are all assuredly heroes. But since you haven't served, using your reasoning, you're incapable of making the same judgment.
As a cop, you ought to know that juries sit in judgment of those who are accused of crimes/torts jurors never have. Using your reasoning, jurors who have never committed crimes are therefore unable to render judgment of the accused.
NH K9, a judgment is nothing more than an opinion. I assume you have opinions of nothing of which you have no direct knowledge.
The irony, NH K9, is you're all too quick to pass judgment on that which you disagree or do not like.
You make a lot of assumptions and extend specific thoughts to a broad range of situations. Par for the course with you, though, so I should expect no less.
In my original post, I asked questions and stated that I didn't feel right in judging Bush. In my second post, I again state that I won't judge the actions of those serving. Those judgements are specific to the topic.
Likewise, the public is free to judge my actions/results. For the most part, their opionions mean very little to me unless they meet a certain set of criteria (taxpayers in my community, Town Manager, LEOs, etc.). That doesn't make the opinion of others less valid, I simply don't give it any weight in my day-to-day existence.
Likewise, your judgement of Bush as a coward is as valid as any other. I simply don't give it any weight as you fail to meet the set of criteria that would make me give it any credibility, just as I'm sure that those who served in the military would give my opinion on the matter very little credence.
If TLee, EvilTwin, MontanaMarine, TAK, or many others were to make the same statement I would certainly stop for a minute to evaluate their judgement/opinion based on the criteria they meet.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service.
He did not consider himself a hero but others that were there at the time and knew him did. Since I was not there nor did I know him then, I will accept their judgement. miles
You make a lot of assumptions and extend specific thoughts to a broad range of situations. Par for the course with you, though, so I should expect no less.
In my original post, I asked questions and stated that I didn't feel right in judging Bush. In my second post, I again state that I won't judge the actions of those serving. Those judgements are specific to the topic.
Likewise, the public is free to judge my actions/results. For the most part, their opionions mean very little to me unless they meet a certain set of criteria (taxpayers in my community, Town Manager, LEOs, etc.). That doesn't make the opinion of others less valid, I simply don't give it any weight in my day-to-day existence.
Likewise, your judgement of Bush as a coward is as valid as any other. I simply don't give it any weight as you fail to meet the set of criteria that would make me give it any credibility, just as I'm sure that those who served in the military would give my opinion on the matter very little credence.
If TLee, EvilTwin, MontanaMarine, TAK, or many others were to make the same statement I would certainly stop for a minute to evaluate their judgement/opinion based on the criteria they meet.
George
George,
You assumption is that Bush being a coward originated with me. I had no knowledge of Bush bailing out of his plane to safety leaving his two crew members to die until it was brought to my attention by people who are well aware of the Bush dynasty. I was pointed to a few articles that have confirmed that Bush saved his as$ at the expense of his crew member lives'.
We can all read historical accounts and draw valid conclusions. I didn't have to serve in the military to know Hitler was a maniac and, thankfully, an idiot as military tactician. I can read the Bible and make judgments about what I have to do to abide by God's law & Jesus' teachings.
In other words the red herring of, "You weren't there so how do you know?" is a serious reasoning fallacy. I wasn't at Nicole Simpson's home, but I've read enough about it to know that OJ and OJ alone murdered Nicole and Ron Goldman. Hell, I didn't even need my prior cop knowledge to figure that out.
You just made us all feel like President Reagan must have felt when some liberal would open his mouth and let the world know how much they were clueless about. LOL But say we've all had a good chuckle at your expense.
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service.
He did not consider himself a hero but others that were there at the time and knew him did. Since I was not there nor did I know him then, I will accept their judgement. miles
miles,
I honestly have never been exposed to anyone who was there and knew Bush's bailing out to safety and referred to him as a hero. Can you provide a link to such a person?
But the fact remains that Bush 41 was a gun grabbing, one-world-government, neocon elitist. You might want to research his family's dynasty going back to his father.
You just made us all feel like President Reagan must have felt when some liberal would open his mouth and let the world know how much they were clueless about. LOL
=============
He strives for it. He's trying to make the most of the short time he has left here.
His sorry ass will be forgotten within a second thereafter.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails. William Arthur Ward
In other words the red herring of, "You weren't there so how do you know?" is a serious reasoning fallacy.
Please point out where I made that statement. I believe I said that "I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes." Note the use of the personal pronoun "I". I then asked a series of questions to determine what weight I was going to give your opinion.
Quote
We can all read historical accounts and draw valid conclusions.
Yes, we can and those "valid conclusions" will often times be "wrong". A lot of folks read historical texts and think Lincoln was fighting a war to save a nation and free slaves.....
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I don't care whether you even consider my opinion. However, as a cop you might want to do your own research. That's what I did.
We will, at times, make faulty judgments. The right thing to do is admit you're wrong and figure out what went wrong in our reasoning/logic processes that lead us to the wrong answer. That's what I do. It's OK to make mistakes. It's not to repeat them.
BTW, the Civil War was fought over states' rights; to wit: whether states had the right to secede. You are right in that many Americans think it was fought over slavery. Lincoln said he'd allow the South to retain slavery if it kept the union together.
I honestly have never been exposed to anyone who was there and knew Bush's bailing out to safety and referred to him as a hero. Can you provide a link to such a person?
I have not tried to find such a person or link but I do know that people do not put themselves in for medals. Other than John Kerry, who served in Vietnam, who also tried to make a protest point by throwing medals away that belonged to someone else. miles
I honestly have never been exposed to anyone who was there and knew Bush's bailing out to safety and referred to him as a hero. Can you provide a link to such a person?
I have not tried to find such a person or link but I do know that people do not put themselves in for medals. Other than John Kerry, who served in Vietnam, who also tried to make a protest point by throwing medals away that belonged to someone else. miles
I will agree. True heroes grieve over their fallen friends. Medals are immaterial to them. Audie Murphy never wore his Congressional Medal of Honor nor did he ever capitalize on it.
I don't care whether you even consider my opinion. However, as a cop you might want to do your own research. That's what I did.
We will, at times, make faulty judgments. The right thing to do is admit you're wrong and figure out what went wrong in our reasoning/logic processes that lead us to the wrong answer. That's what I do. It's OK to make mistakes. It's not to repeat them.
Adios
I'm curious as to what "mistake" I have made? Is it your perception that I have erred since I disagree with your assessment that Bush is a coward? I have chosen not to judge the man as a coward or a hero as I don't see the relevance to doing so nor do I feel that I have the requisite set of facts. I fail to see how that is a "mistake" on my part.
I have no problem admitting to my mistakes (in fact, my boss will tell you that I'm generally in his office warning him of an incoming complaint long before he ever gets it). In this scenario, I see nothing wrong.
George,
Quote
BTW, the Civil War was fought over states' rights; to wit: whether states had the right to secede. You are right in that many Americans think it was fought over slavery. Lincoln said he'd allow the South to retain slavery if it kept the union together.
Thanks for the history lesson, but that's one I figured out long ago....
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I honestly have never been exposed to anyone who was there and knew Bush's bailing out to safety and referred to him as a hero. Can you provide a link to such a person?
exactly right...you have absolutely no personal knowledge or even first hand hearsay knowledge of what you're blathering about. and I seriously doubt if you spend much time hanging around with guys who are now in their late 80s or that they'd share war stories with you in the first place.
the medal citation speaks for itself, as does your ankle biting. loser.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
Don't think in any way anyone can call him a coward! Whether he is a hero (probably no more or less) than all the others who fought in the war. Whether or not he panicked and/or caused the death of his fellow crew members, maybe he does or doesn't know himself, both could have vary easily have been unconious... and presumed dead... and he took approiate action.
How the military at the time and the public looked upon his action, well you have to take a really good look at the military of the day! Hell look at the way the military that really [bleep] up with the U.S.S Indianappolis incident made Captain Charles Butler McVay III look just to cover their colective asses!
Personally I would say that GHWB deserved everything he was awarded, and the respect that he got for just having served in that war! But wouldn't put to much faith in what the military has to say about it...
.....Scott O'Grady was not a hero. He was shot down doing his job. The true heroes were the men who volunteered to go in harm's way to rescue him. ......
I'm not sure if he was a hero or not but I do know that he was shot down because he was flying the same flight patterns every time he went up and it was pretty simple for a mobile Sa-6 to set up for him near Banja Luka.
That mobile Sa-6 was a tricky little sucker but he made the mistake of lighting up and we had his signature.
Doubtful you have any aircraft knowledge but some research on the TBM Avenger may shed some light for your warped conclusions.While you're at it Google up Ensign George H.Gay another torpedo bomber pilot who was the only surviving member of a full squadron at the battle of Midway.I'm sure he was a chicken chit also since he was the last man standing..Oh BTW GFY moron..
Forty-one years ago, a 20-year-old Naval Aviator named George Bush embarked on a mission which he would later describe as one of the most dramatic moments of his life -- an experience which gave him a "sobering understanding of war and peace." "There's no question that it broadened my horizons," Vice President Bush said recently. "And there's no question that today it has a real impact on me as I give advice to the President." It was September 2, 1944. Lieutenant Junior Grade George Bush was a pilot with Torpedo Squadron Fifty-One (VT-51 ) aboard the aircraft carrier USS San Jacinto (CVL-30), a light carrier which was deployed in the North Pacific Just two years earlier, on June 12, 1942, Bush had graduated from high school and joined the Navy as a seaman, second class. But, in less than a year, he completed flight training at NAS Corpus Christi, Texas, was commissioned an ensign, and went on to fly TBM Avengers with VT-51. For a time, he was the youngest pilot in Naval Aviation. On that sunny morning of September, Bush woke aboard San Jacinto prepared to fly one of the 58 attack missions he would fly during the war. However, this particular mission would end a little differently than his other 57. The target was a Japanese radio station on ChiChi Jima, located about 600 miles southwest of Japan in the Bonin Islands. For a time, the enemy on that tiny island had been intercepting U.S. military radio transmissions and warning Japan and occupied enemy islands of impending American air strikes. It had to be destroyed Before 0900, Bush and two aircrewmen (his regular radioman, Radioman Second Class John Delaney, and substitute gunner Lieutenant Junior Grade William White) strapped themselves inside an Avenger and catapulted off San Jacinto. Three other bomb-laden VT-51 aircraft, as well as a number of VF-51's F6F Hellcats, joined the mission. "I was replaced by Ltjg. White at the last minute," said Leo W. Nadeau, then an ordnanceman second class who flew as Bush's gunner on all but two of his attack missions. "As intelligence officer, White wanted to go along to observe the island." Nadeau, who was 20 at the time, added that the day before, Bush, Delaney and he had flown into ChiChi Jima and destroyed an enemy gun emplacement. "The antiaircraft (AA) fire on that island was the worst we had seen," he said. "I don't think the AA fire in the Philippines was as bad as that." "ChiChi was a real feisty place to fly into," Stanley Butchart, a former VT-51 pilot and friend of Bush, agreed. "As I remember, it had gun emplacements hidden in the mountain areas. In order to get down to the radio facility, you had to fly past the AA batteries, which was risky business." As expected, projectiles belched from the enemy's AA batteries as soon as Bush and his squadron mates were over the island. Tiny black puffs of smoke thickened around his plane as he approached the target and dove steeply -- so steeply that Bush felt like he was standing on his head. But before he reached the radio facility the plane was hit. Ltjg. Bush, who felt the plane "lift" from the hit, continued his dive toward the target and dropped his payload. The four 500-pound bombs exploded, causing damaging hits. For his courage and disregard for his own safety in pressing home his attack, he was later awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross. Bush maneuvered the Avenger over the ocean with the hope it would make the journey back to San Jacinto. But the plane began to blaze and clouds of smoke soon enveloped the cockpit. Choking and gasping for air, Bush and one of his aircrewmen wriggled out of the plane and leaped from about 1,500 feet. His other crewman, dead or seriously injured from the blast, went down with the Avenger. Bush parachuted safely into the water, dangerously close to the shore. Unfortunately, the aircrewman fell helplessly to his death because his parachute failed to open properly. No one ever knew which one bailed out with Mr. Bush," said Nadeau, now a building contractor in Ramona, Calif. "I would assume it was Delaney, because as the radioman, he would go out first to leave room for the gunner to climb down out of the turret and put his chute on. "There wasn't room in the turret for the gunner to wear a parachute. As a gunner, my parachute hung on the bulkhead of the plane near Delaney. We set up an escape procedure where he was supposed to hand me my chute and jump, and then I was to follow him. The procedure took a couple of seconds." Nadeau added that he "didn't know what to think" when he heard the plan was shot down. "I felt bad that Delaney and Mr. White had died," he said. "I just had the feeling that had I been there, Delaney and I might have both made it out alive -- that is, unless one of us got hit by AA. Delaney and I had practiced our escape procedure constantly. He might have stayed to help White get out of the turret and delayed too long. it's one of those things that never leaves your mind. Why didn't I go that day?" Vice-President Bush said that he chose to finish the bombing run rather than bail out early because as a Naval Aviator, he was disciplined to do that. "We were trained to complete our runs no matter what the obstacle,"he remarked. Once in the water, Bush unleashed his inflatable yellow lifeboat, crawled in, and paddled quickly out to sea. The Japanese sent out a boat to capture him. Luckily, Lieutenant Doug West, a fellow VT-51 Avenger pilot, strafed the boat. "He stopped it," said Bush. Circling fighter planes transmitted Bush's plight and position to the U.S. submarine Finback (SS-230), patrolling 15 to 20 miles from the island
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Getting shot down is not heroic. Saving your crew members might not be either. It might be was he was supposed to do. Yet he chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives. That's a coward.
But I'm good with whatever you choose to believe.
A second way to identify a troll for sure is that they never read or comprehend what is posted in response to their own �truth.� They cling to their sources whose words are set in stone and your backup is crap. �Well, you can chose to believe whatever stupidity you have found, but I know what I know.�
It is a fact, Jack; verified from the record of the Distinguished Flying Cross award that Bush finished his bomb run after his plane was hit.
Yet you judge him a coward. You state as fact that Bush chose to save himself instead of his crew, while neither you or your witnesses were in that cockpit.
In the article I quoted from there are more people who were there that completely disagree with your source. At the last squadron reunion there were eight still alive that would have been more than happy to set you straight. And they have other stories to tell about the character of Ltjg. Bush.
...A month after picking up Bush, Finback discharged her five passengers at Midway. Afterwards, the aviators were taken to Hawaii. "We were supposed to stay at Hawaii for two weeks R&R," said Keene, who became good friends with Bush aboard the sub. "But Bush was concerned about what had happened to his crewmen, and he wanted to get back out to San Jacinto. So, we got a ride in a DC-3 and ended up at Guam. We stayed there a few days until we found out where the fleet was."
Once aboard San Jacinto, there were few people as happy to see Bush back as his gunner, Ordnanceman Second Class Leo Nadeau. "I don't know what happened in officers' quarters, but down in enlisted quarters we had the ship's baker make a big cake with the words 'Your First Ducking' written on the top," he said. Nadeau added that Ltjg. Bush had a lot of friends among the enlisted men.
"Mr. Bush wasn't one of your run-of-the-mill officers," he said. "Being an enlisted man, I couldn't go into officers' quarters and as an officer he couldn't go into enlisted quarters. So we'd meet quite often up on the flight deck by the plane. We'd always be checking our aircraft out. He would look his plane over, and I would look over the armament. We were both very conscientious about the work that we were doing." Once up on the flight deck, Nadeau said the two of them used to talk about most anything, including the women both of them would later marry. As Bush's gunner, Nadeau said the two of them had some "scary moments'' together.
He added that one particular moment stands out among the others. "It was in June 1944," he remembered. "Our plane was taxied to the catapult and tied down. We had to be catapulted instead of making a deck takeoff, because of our heavy load of ordnance. Once we were tied down, a Japanese air wave attacked San Jacinto. We couldn't catapult, however, because the ship wasn't into the wind." While the carrier's guns traded rounds with the enemy planes, Bush, Nadeau and radioman Delaney sat in the Avenger with the engine running, praying they wouldn't get hit. "It was hairy," Nadeau added. "Finally the wave went through. The carrier turned into the wind and shot us off. We scattered. We just wanted to get that bomb-ladened plane off the carrier. We were flying on pins and needles because we didn't know how many enemy planes were still up there. "At some point we took a hit in the oil line, either from the Japanese when they attacked the ship, or from a stray projectile from the carrier's guns. The plane began spurting oil like mad," said Nadeau. "(Not long after leaving the ship) Mr. Bush came on the intercom and told Delaney and me to hold on because we were going down. Seconds later, he made a beautiful water landing. "We got into a rubber lifeboat and Delaney and I started singing 'Over the Bounding Main,' " Nadeau laughed. "Mr. Bush turned around and said, 'You guys had better shut up or they're going to think we're having too good a time out here.'" An hour later they were picked up by a U.S. destroyer, and returned to San Jacinto within five days. "I can't say anything but good things about him," remarked Jack Guy, who was one of Bush's closest friends in VT-51. "In WW II we all felt we could depend on George to do his job. We never had to say, 'Where's my wingman?' because he was always there."
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
The chasm in this country between, the far radical left.. ordinary people in the middle and far radicals on the right... is getting ridiculous...
all of this crap spewed by the liberal left, pushes folks like me further to the right...
if I found a far left radical with the crap beat out of him in a back alley, the only thing I could do is laugh and think how right poetic justice can feel...
these people want to see George Bush SR die? and for what..
I am sure they're the types I saw on Boston Common, this fall...
there was a rally that Barney Frank was speaking to a crowd of smelly dumpy wannabe hippies... who were having a combination "gay Pride" and "legalize marijuana" rally.....
I went to college in Boston, from Jan 1971 to June 1975... 40 years ago and counting...come to Boston Common and see not much has changed back there in 40 plus years....
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
For Laguna, and his supporters, criticizing a young WW 2 George Bush....what a bunch of dumbazzes...
call him a coward? there is a book called "Flyboys"...not the same as the movie about American pilots in WW 1 France before the USA entered the war...
This is the story of the Naval Aviators that were shot down attacking the radar and radio station on ChiChi Jima...an island close to Iwo Jima...
the Navy was interested in knocking it out, as it was reporting back to Tokyo what was going on at Iwo...
The commander of the island, was tried for war crimes after the war and executed... He had his men kill many of the Naval Aviators captured, and then EAT Them... Cannabalism...
a very young man, Bush's A/C was hit at 1500 ft altitude...he completed his bomb run and then his plane was burning... at 1500 ft... there was not a lot of time available for anyone to get out of that A/C.. it was burning, losing altitude at 1500 ft, and was in danger of exploding... and he was off an island, where it was known that the enemy commander was not keeping prisoners according to the Geneva Convention.. he was killing them...
60 years later and sitting safely behind one's keyboard, it is easy for someone to criticize what HE SHOULD HAVE DONE, according to their point of view.....
but talk about a hollow moronic sense of self righteousness...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
While I have not read this book, I was told that it's enlightening & alarming. I plan to check it out of my local library on Monday. From what I understand, the secrets go back to Prescott Bush.
George Hubert Walker's dad could have gotten him out of military service with no problem...
he also could have gotten him duty where he would have never been in harms way..
dad wanted him to stay stateside and enroll into college...
instead the young 18 yr old GHW Bush, enlisted in the navy, put in for flight school, volunteered for combat with the fleet...
the young man did NOT take the easy way out, which would have been so easy for him to do...and all he did, he did against his father's wishes...
one does not have to like his politics, but no one can call him a coward...
the same way I didn't agree with Daniel Inouye's politics either...but I revere him for his combat achievements, and his dedication to voting how his constituents wanted him to vote in congress...
as far as I have always been concerned, anyone who has served their country in harms way, has more than earned the right to believe any way he wants to... whether others agree with it or not...
no one said he was a God, but on the other end, he served his nation in more ways than one.. and do so honorably...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
Here's an abstract of the book. I will read the book and assess. I do know that the Bushs' ties to the financial world go back to Prescott.
It might be BS. I won't know until I've read it. But my source, who is beyond reliable, has told me it's true and corroborated by other sources.
you can get it free from your friends at MoveOn. why don't you take your book, and your imaginary friend "reliable source" and jam them both up your ass, on you way off the site?
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
I met GHWB at the Safari Club a few years back, a true gentleman.
What do you base your comments about GW on? The mortgage based security fiasco can be placed at the feet of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Their job was oversight and they failed to do their job. GW sent two letters of warning and was ignored.
GHWB was a very smart individual who at least had the sense to quit while he was ahead with his war. His bravery as a young man is beyond refute. Was he perfect? I think his "new world order" crap answers THAT. But he was a thoughtful, decent man who by the way ALSO thought that:
GWB is a [bleep] idiot who [bleep] up our country. His wars will haunt us for decades, his economic "prowess" is a big part of why we are where we are.
I met GHWB at the Safari Club a few years back, a true gentleman.
What do you base your comments about GW on? The mortgage based security fiasco can be placed at the feet of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Their job was oversight and they failed to do their job. GW sent two letters of warning and was ignored.
GHWB was a very smart individual who at least had the sense to quit while he was ahead with his war. His bravery as a young man is beyond refute. Was he perfect? I think his "new world order" crap answers THAT. But he was a thoughtful, decent man who by the way ALSO thought that:
GWB is a [bleep] idiot who [bleep] up our country. His wars will haunt us for decades, his economic "prowess" is a big part of why we are where we are.
IMHO.
LOL jeff give them the hard sell they'll buy it this time.
Here's an abstract of the book. I will read the book and assess. I do know that the Bushs' ties to the financial world go back to Prescott.
It might be BS. I won't know until I've read it. But my source, who is beyond reliable, has told me it's true and corroborated by other sources.
you can get it free from your friends at MoveOn. why don't you take your book, and your imaginary friend "reliable source" and jam them both up your ass, on you way off the site?
Steve_No
You have an extremely weird & pronounced fascination with homosexuality. Just yesterday you were trying to pimp out your son at gay bath houses. Now you're in to fisting, Good thing for your son, the military can't ask if your son doesn't tell. And a while back you were looking to hook up with a homosexual prostitute.
We know RISJR is a pettifogger in the least difficult legal speciality. Hell, there is no more family law in Arizona. In other states paralegals do the dirty work, and that's what family law is: dirty work that competent lawyers will not touch, which leaves it to pettifoggers. And that's the extent of RISJR's legal ability: the bottom of the legal barrel. Other lawyers look upon family law lawyers with disgrace because they scam money ruining families.
So since you're RISJR's only friend, are there benefits involved?
The reason why you think Bush was a war hero is the same reason you thought Romney was going to landslide Obama: your only source of info is MSM. Obviously I have far superior sources of info because a real deal lawyer told me the second the Romney became the nominee, Obama was going to landslide him. So we know he's smart and you can't pull two thoughts at once w/o fear of concussion. And no real father would ever even remotely think about sending his son into a gay bath house. That is just plain weird.
With your weird fascination of homosexuality, I would not be surprised if you haven't had a few vice contacts, maybe a conviction or two.
Now get benefits busy with RISJR so you'll be in a better mood. Social services will be over Monday to assure you're not pullin' benefits off of your son.
Bigwhoop: Indeed George H. W. Bush was a great man and a good president. I admire and thank him for all of his varied services to our country. I could give a flyingphuck less what any liberal has to say about him or for that matter ANYTHING else. I hope that President Bush can overcome this illness and continue to enjoy some more years with his family. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
wow....I am so impressed. that they let you out of restraints this early....a Sunday treat?
it takes a certain kind of sociopath to keep coming back to a place where you're mocked and despised.....but I guess that's pretty much the case every where you go, isn't it?
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
All I can add to this topic is that I was in the military during the time that GHWB was in office and during the change of guard to Bildo Clinton. Things were good with GHWB; good training and plenty of it. Good equipment from socks to weaponry. When Bill Clinton came into power things went to chit in a big hurry. I voted for George Herbert Walker Bush... twice and I'm proud of it.
I hate to disrupt your opinion of George HW Bush. He was at best a neocon. He was an abortionist until Reagan told him he HAD to become pro-life if he wanted the #2 job. He was a gun grabber. He was a long time Bilderberger who advocated for a one-world-government, which means he wanted the demise of the USA.
George HW Bush lied us into Operation Desert Storm in order to protect his Kuwaiti homies, which means he was willing to sacrifice American soldiers in order to protect his Kuwaiti homies. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was none of our damned business. What if we were just dumb enough to invade Iran and China thought our invasion was its business and invaded us with 250 million soldiers? You'll be munchin' won ton for lunch. Hegemony is a very dangerous game that our Founding Fathers told us not to play.
The three hardest words for people to say are, "I was wrong." But when I am I will say them. And I've said them about both Bushes. You see, I voted for them, and I've regretted it.
As all of you know by now, if there is no authentic conservative in an election, I will not vote. I am long past done doing the less evil thing. Neither Bush was authentically conservative. They were far more liberal than conservative. That, my friend, is an absolute fact.
And that ABO thing that Steve_No had going on is the reasoning of an abject idiot. Vote less evil and expect to say adios to your guns. Believe me, with Romney's gun grabbing record, he'd of taken your guns quicker than Obama can board Air Force 1 for a European vacation.
Steve you got to remember the way these guys work. They decide that they don't like something and then they try to find facts to shore up their decision. Not deciding, by looking at the facts first. miles
As always, you're right on the money. The Bush dynasty not only financed Hitler, they made money off of dead American soldiers who were fighting Nazis.
This news has been around for some time. I hope the two Auschwitz survivors who are suing the Bush clan can move their suit forward. I think testimony during that trial would be extremely informative. Who knows, maybe the Bush fortune would have to be awarded to the petitioners or at the least confiscated under US asset forfeiture law.
Most posters here posture themselves into beliefs they have formed from propaganda they've received from MSM. For these posters, admitting that they were wrong is worse than gun control.
However, I am more convinced than ever that Steve_No & RISJR are authentic card-carrying liberal Democrats. They use arguing strategies straight from Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals".
You haven't delved sufficiently into GHWB, I'd suggest. His policy in the Gulf was less ill-advised than that of his son, but that was merely due to the establishment they both served not yet being ready for the actions there that they desired in 2001.
Most posters here posture themselves into beliefs they have formed from propaganda they've received from MSM. For these posters, admitting that they were wrong is worse than gun control.
Well this hit piece is moving right along. First they don't like "W" then they don't His Dad and since they could not convince anybody that he was a coward, they go after his Dad. Will they go back another generation? I would bet on it. miles
I would think you guys would think that's a feature, not a bug.
You get the impression that those who wish to restore the American Republic favor authoritarians, do you? Well, at any rate, no one can say your level of analysis here isn't true to form.
Well this hit piece is moving right along. First they don't like "W" then they don't His Dad and since they could not convince anybody that he was a coward, they go after his Dad. Will they go back another generation? I would bet on it. miles
miles,
Or could it be that some of us are not afraid to pursue truth? If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Only a fool retains a false premise, for any conclusion derived from it will be false.
I was under the impression this was about GHWB being a coward, not his credentials as a "true conservative" or good president. Those issues are not mutually exclusive.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I was under the impression this was about GHWB being a coward, not his credentials as a "true conservative" or good president. Those issues are not mutually exclusive.
George
I must admit I have only skimmed over this thread, so I don't know what was said in regard to him being a coward. If it's a reference to his giving in on tax hikes, I'd have to agree that could be classified thus, but that would assume that he didn't actually approve of the leftist agenda, which I believe he did, so cowardice doesn't even enter into it. Perfidy, yes.
Negative, it would be in regards to his military service and how he handled being shot down.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I was under the impression this was about GHWB being a coward, not his credentials as a "true conservative" or good president. Those issues are not mutually exclusive.
George
George,
Read the title of this thread. And access the links I've posted. Bush bailed out of his plane to save his a$s at the expense of his two crew members. The right procedure was for Bush to have attempted a water landing thereby attempting to save the lives of his crew members. That was his job. His job was not to save his a$s at the expense of his crew members lives. That was established protocol.
George, if you want to retain your belief that Bush was a hero, I'm good. But those who were there and know what Bush did have a very different take on Bush's status as a hero. And just doing his job does not make him a hero, just like your just doing your job does not make you a hero. Access the link I've posted about Vincent Bugliosi's definition of a hero for enlightenment.
Negative, it would be in regards to his military service and how he handled being shot down.
George
Oh, I have no opinion on that. Haven't studied it enough. It likely takes a certain degree of guts just to pilot a fighter jet, however, let alone in a war zone.
George, if you want to retain your belief that Bush was a hero, I'm good.
I'm curious....are you being intentionally disingenuous, are your reading comprehension skills lacking or is your memory faulty? Don't attribute a belief/quote to me that I've already stated I don't hold.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
George, if you want to retain your belief that Bush was a hero, I'm good.
I'm curious....are you being intentionally disingenuous, are your reading comprehension skills lacking or is your memory faulty? Don't attribute a belief/quote to me that I've already stated I don't hold.
George
George,
No. I am responding to your belief that Bush was a hero. If you want to believe it, I'm good.
If that's the case you should have no problem finding the post where I called him a hero, right?
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I asked him point blank in another thread if he was raisinhead and he never admitted to it. Must be ashamed of the things he wrote. I have no idea why the name change but he is an Azzhat which ever name he uses. miles
I'll save you the time. Here's my original post (bold added):
"I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service. I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes."
So, yes, I guess you could say that I never called him a hero.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I've never considered Bush a "hero" but have always respected his service. I don't feel it necessary to praise or condemn the man when I wasn't in his shoes.
Which branch of the service did you serve in, Laguna, to judge the man? Which armed conflicts did you take part in? I'm assuming, based only on a summation of your past comments, that you're of an age to have overlapped at least a couple.
George
Here's what you posted. You've always "...respected his service..." even tough he was derelict in his duty to protect his crew members.
I was wrong in that you did not call him a hero. However, you have defended him by finding it unnecessary to praise or condemn him. If he was in fact derelict in his duty to protect the lives of his crew members, why would you find it unnecessary to condemn him?
I will speak to some aviators I respect and see what they have to say on the issue. Pugs is, unfortunately, hunting or I'm sure he would have weighed in by now. Your statement that he was derelict means nothing as you don't have the qualifications to make the statement. I will readily admit that I don't have the requisite knowledge at this point to render a decision on the matter.
That said, the man was a combat pilot. That alone is worthy of respect in my mind.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
I will speak to some aviators I respect and see what they have to say on the issue. Pugs is, unfortunately, hunting or I'm sure he would have weighed in by now. Your statement that he was derelict means nothing as you don't have the qualifications to make the statement. I will readily admit that I don't have the requisite knowledge at this point to render a decision on the matter.
That said, the man was a combat pilot. That alone is worthy of respect in my mind.
George
I could've respected Bush if he had at least tried to save his two crew members as was his job. But he didn't. He chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives.
In another post in this thread is a synopsis of a previous incident in which Bush effectuated a water landing saving his crew members. So why didn't he attempt the same maneuver again?
If he was in fact derelict in his duty to protect the lives of his crew members, why would you find it unnecessary to condemn him?
Well we all know he was because you said so, right here in this thread although all you have is somebody in another plane that claimed it to be true. Now this man might have been holding a grudge against GHWB that had nothing to do with his courage or lack of it. Again it might have been that the plane that was on fire and had been for some time would not respond to the controls any more. You don't know, I don't know. Again it seems like one of the other two men in the plane managed to get out and was lost and the other might have been dead, you don't know, I don't know. Now what I glean from all of this is that you have a Hard on for GHWB for some reason and are trying to trash him via this thread, which makes you a troll and an Azzhat, to me. Now I do know that the military saw fit to give him a medal for this act and according to what I have read he flew the plane and dropped his bombs even after it was hit, so I would say that he most likely was no coward. Scared as hell, probably, might have made a bad decision or two. I do doubt from reading others accounts (not your man) that he put his life before the others. He might have thought that they were right behind him or maybe the other one that jumped was before him, I don't know, you don't know. You are in fact trying to trash an old man that is now sick by using things that you do not know are true or not. That would lend credence that maybe you are the one that is a coward. miles
I asked him point blank in another thread if he was raisinhead and he never admitted to it. Must be ashamed of the things he wrote. I have no idea why the name change but he is an Azzhat which ever name he uses. miles
Do you mean that this black chick, Laguana, is the same poster as the effeminate sounding member who called herself Rasuilli?
Now it all makes sense..................... except why y'all are still responding to its' posts.
It's obama sucking [bleep] like you that's [bleep] up the country
Mike
+100
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much" Teddy Roosevelt
I will speak to some aviators I respect and see what they have to say on the issue. Pugs is, unfortunately, hunting or I'm sure he would have weighed in by now. Your statement that he was derelict means nothing as you don't have the qualifications to make the statement. I will readily admit that I don't have the requisite knowledge at this point to render a decision on the matter.
That said, the man was a combat pilot. That alone is worthy of respect in my mind.
George
I could've respected Bush if he had at least tried to save his two crew members as was his job. But he didn't. He chose to save himself at the expense of his crew members' lives.
In another post in this thread is a synopsis of a previous incident in which Bush effectuated a water landing saving his crew members. So why didn't he attempt the same maneuver again?
Anyone who reads back over this thread can plainly see that your opinion (stated as fact) that Ltjg. Bush was a coward has been completely shot down. Pun intended.
All those quotes from those who were there, knew Bush and what really went down that day. Pun intended.
Preponderance of evidence supported by his crew statements of what happened on his other ditching when Bush did make a successful water landing.
No Bush crewmember, no one else in VT-51squadron except maybe your source has recited any hint of Bush cowardice. Just the opposite.
Only half of the squadron's original 16 pilots survived the war and nobody at the small 40th squadron reunion supported your so-called �facts.�
Your own research leave a lot to be desired.
Your link quote Mierzejewski who was a turret gunner in a leading aircraft who watched one of his friends go down. He blames Bush.
The other part of your quote is from Robert Flood, a former B-17 bombardier told the press. "He violated the primary rule for a captain of a multi-crew aircraft: The pilot never leaves the airplane with anybody in it.�
Pure BS from someone who wasn�t there, but should know that a pilot orders his crew out first by radio. Bush was not flying a B17 and had no way to sight check his crew after he did ordered them to bail out. Some eyewitnesses did see one crewmember leave the plane but no chute.
So you lied when you said: �Many of his fellow aviators have said that Bush was actually a coward.�
And when you said: �He might not know the answer, but others in his squadron do know the answer. And so do we.�
You lied when you said your links �confirm.�
And you keep lying about anyone claiming Bush (including Bush) was a hero for getting shot down.
Ltjg. Bush got his DFC for finishing his bomb run on target after his plane was hit.
Then he ordered his crew to bail out as he tried to head back to his carrier until his cockpit filled with smoke. Followed procedure.
You quote sources who was not in that cockpit�not in the arena with the bull�but you sit in the bleachers and pass judgment.
You have to be really stupid to believe anyone can land an aircraft on water or land with a smoke filled cockpit.
That is what parachutes are for.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Good post BOWSINGER, Lagoonie has no clue of flying in general much less in combat under intense AA fire desperately trying to fly a mortally wounded aircraft.
Aircraft commanders' do what they can to insure crew survivability but this hinges on type of aircraft with inflight emergencies being addressed differently as the situation dictates and by crew egress SOP's.
The TBM's design was a major contributing factor for the Bush crew fatalities and had nothing to do with cowardice or dereliction of duty.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
...and that would be an opinion from an aviator that I respect!
What do you say, Woody, dereliction of duty?
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
...and that would be an opinion from an aviator that I respect!
What do you say, Woody, dereliction of duty?
George
Never crossed my mind George,I can only visualize how busy Bush was in the cockpit trying to keep his wings level and flare out before hitting the drink.There's an SOP of egress for every aircraft and crew member but fate has a way of getting in the way of a well thought out plan especially in combat.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Good post BOWSINGER, Lagoonie has no clue of flying in general much less in combat under intense AA fire desperately trying to fly a mortally wounded aircraft.
Aircraft commanders' do what they can to insure crew survivability but this hinges on type of aircraft with inflight emergencies being addressed differently as the situation dictates and by crew egress SOP's.
The TBM's design was a major contributing factor for the Bush crew fatalities and had nothing to do with cowardice or dereliction of duty.
Always good when someone who knows what they are talking about; speaks�Oil on troubled waters� Lagoonie has been shot down in more ways than Ltjg. Bush.
As for former President George H.W. Bush, I do not agree with Bristoe that Bush was �America's first globalist President.� I would pick Theodore Roosevelt. And every President since. And any reincarnated Founding Father after he has been briefed and brought up to speed about the global world we live in today.
I did not agree with the Bush tax increases, but I understand why he changed his mind and broke his pledge. I believe he thought he was doing the right thing at the time.
I have never worried about the phrase �New World Order.� It was tossed about by many world leaders as the Cold War drew to a close. Including Gorbachev. Especially Gorbachev.
Just words. Later Bush explained exactly what he intended. �Freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony.�
�We have before us the opportunity to forge for ourselves and for future generations a new world order�a world where the rule of law, not the law of the jungle, governs the conduct of nations. When we are successful�and we will be�we have a real chance at this new world order, an order in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfill the promise and vision of the U.N.'s founders.�
What I have never forgiven was Bush not finishing the Gulf War by winning the war. Not demanding from the UN the right to remove the primary cause of that war.
Eradicate the reason to have to go back a second time at such a terrible cost.
Not winning the First Gulf War gave us the Second Gulf War.
President Bush paid heed to and took bad advice from the wrong Generals.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
Bigwhoop: Indeed George H. W. Bush was a great man and a good president. I admire and thank him for all of his varied services to our country. I could give a flyingphuck less what any liberal has to say about him or for that matter ANYTHING else. I hope that President Bush can overcome this illness and continue to enjoy some more years with his family. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
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You, however ... 