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#7243078 - 12/30/12 Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns
Ngrumba Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 1673
Loc: Dixieland
The difference between California and Alabama.

ALBERTVILLE, Alabama -- A state legislator from Marshall County wants to provide a legal pathway for to school administrators and teachers to carry guns to keep schools safe.

Rep. Kerry Rich, R-Albertville, said today he is planning to pre-file a bill for the state House of Representatives to consider when it goes into session in February.

Under Rich's plan, the bill would authorize a school system superintendent and board of education to identify and approve potential administrators and teachers to carry guns.

The plan potentially thrusts Alabama into the midst of the ongoing national debate on how best to keep schools safe in wake of the Dec. 14 shooting at Sandy Hook School in Newtown, Conn., that left 20 first-graders and six school employees dead.

Rich, who serves on the House Education Policy committee, pointed out that the principal at Sandy Hook, Dawn Hochsprung, encountered the shooter and attempted to stop him before being shot and killed.

"If she had had a gun, or someone in that school had a gun, they could have taken him out before he reached the students," Rich said. "That's all I'm trying to achieve here -- a way and a means where people have a way of protecting themselves and students in schools."

Rich said putting the decision of which school employees should carry guns in the hands of the superintendents and school boards would be most appropriate because they know the employees best.

"They know the people that work for them," he said. "They know their character and they know their background. They know if they be able to a handle a gun. These people would be required to go through the same training as far as handling a gun as a police officer would."

Rich said he has received favorable responses from other legislators he has discussed the bill with as well as law enforcement officials. He said he planned to have the bill ready when the Legislature goes into session on Feb. 5.

Rich said he was already considering similar legislation before the Connecticut shooting.

"I'm not saying this is what brought my attention to it but it's probably part of it," Rich said. "I've got a 6-year-old granddaughter in kindergarten now. Certainly I want her protected. I wanted all children protected. I don't want any of them to face this kind of situation."

Passing a restriction on guns would not be sufficient, Rich said.

"We need to be logical, we need to be realistic about this stuff," he said. "Passing another gun law is not going to help the solve problem, in my opinion. There are some things you can do maybe on the fringes of things. You don't want people with mental problems to be able to get guns. We don't want people convicted of felony -- especially convicted of crimes of violence -- to be able to get a gun. The only thing I would even think about in that regard would be at gun shows that you have to do a background check.

"I think the gun laws are basically adequate. We need better enforcement. If we would enforce the laws we have, they are probably adequate. The thing that's really bad, in my opinion, we have gotten to a point where our culture is in such a fix, these kinds of things happen."

Rich said he's "wide open" to entertaining other ideas on school safety. School safety will be at the forefront of a joint meeting between state representatives and senators on Jan. 9 that will include state Superintendent Tommy Bice as well as prosecutors and law enforcement officials, Rich said.

"I'm listening," he said. "I don't claim at all to have the corner on the market on the thinking on all this. I'm wide open listening to people and their ideas. This is one way that I think you could approach it that would be effective."

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#7243146 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: Ngrumba]
rod44 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/17/12
Posts: 298
Loc: SW Wisconsin
Good idea.

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#7243457 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: rod44]
dye7barrel Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 2231
Loc: Washington
Similar concept is being explored in WA although I don't anticipate much movement due to the libs in this state.

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#7243461 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: rod44]
2ndwind Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/28/04
Posts: 15785
Make the required training equal to what say a Federal air marshal gets and then pay the teachers extra for taking on the "sheep dog" role.... It should not be general knowledge who the highly trained teacher are....

Simple common sense solution..... Make it common knowledge that the program is in place....
_________________________
Please don't feed the trolls!

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#7243468 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 2ndwind]
Cheesy Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 6762
Loc: SW Missouri
My local rep here in Missouri brought up similar bill. Our great democratic governor said he'd veto it.

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#7243470 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: rod44]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 34648
Originally Posted By: rod44
Good idea.
No, it's not. Another reason why Alabama's education system is in the bottom ten nationally. For one thing, it doesn't address the Federal Law preventing guns in the schools. The state, locals and school board can pass any laws and regulations they want to, but it doesn't keep the Feds from coming into any district and rounding up those carrying guns for violating the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994. All it does is identify the participants. What needs to be done is simply remove the offending Federal Law and then let whomever can legally carry do so. My guess is a bunch of state laws against carrying guns as well as local ordinances and school board policies against same. Locales which refuse to allow responsible parties to protect school children and school employees and patrons can be held accountable if something happens. In the better places, such as Wyoming and Oklahoma, there will be few problems. In places like Connecticut, at least it takes the monkey off the back of the Feds and places it back with people closer to the kids themselves. You disarm somebody and IMO you become responsible for their protection. You remove obstacles to taking responsibility for peoples' protection and that of those in their charge, and you empower them to prevent future acts of violence.
_________________________
Tell those protesters to kiss my ass.

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#7243483 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: rod44]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: rod44
Good idea.
Yep, just like all that was needed to address 9/11 was to allow pilots to be armed and to reinforce their doors. But we got the TSA and the DHS anyway, i.e., big government "solutions."
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#7243491 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: EthanEdwards]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: EthanEdwards
Originally Posted By: rod44
Good idea.
No, it's not. Another reason why Alabama's education system is in the bottom ten nationally. For one thing, it doesn't address the Federal Law preventing guns in the schools. The state, locals and school board can pass any laws and regulations they want to, but it doesn't keep the Feds from coming into any district and rounding up those carrying guns for violating the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994. All it does is identify the participants. What needs to be done is simply remove the offending Federal Law and then let whomever can legally carry do so. My guess is a bunch of state laws against carrying guns as well as local ordinances and school board policies against same. Locales which refuse to allow responsible parties to protect school children and school employees and patrons can be held accountable if something happens. In the better places, such as Wyoming and Oklahoma, there will be few problems. In places like Connecticut, at least it takes the monkey off the back of the Feds and places it back with people closer to the kids themselves. You disarm somebody and IMO you become responsible for their protection. You remove obstacles to taking responsibility for peoples' protection and that of those in their charge, and you empower them to prevent future acts of violence.
Excellent reasoning, as usual for you, but I was under the impression that the Supreme Court struck down the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#7243530 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
1tnhunter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 2056
Loc: Tennessee
What happens if a smaller stature female who is the armed teacher is attack and disarmed by a much larger person?

I'm not in favor of teachers carrying guns. Just seems like another reason for some scumbag who has gone thru the 8th grade for the 3rd time to assault teachers.

What i'm in favor of is armed guards train in the use of firearms and in protection of civilians.

Teachers are paid to educate...Armed guards are paid to provide security.

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#7243566 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
2ndwind Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/28/04
Posts: 15785
Emphasize that psychological screening and training for extreme high stress shooting with frequent re qualifying being required.... Maybe post scores for the area sheep dog teachers in comparison to average LEO scores.... That should help to shut up the anti gun crowd .

My guess there would be elite top level instructors willing to donate their time and facilities..... Cost would be LOTS of training ammo, funding for rigorous psychological screening (sorry Hawkeye.... Don't even think about applying) and then significant bonus pay for the 2 or 3% who make the cut.....

It would work and work very well.
_________________________
Please don't feed the trolls!

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#7243567 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Davemc Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 86

Arm the teacher's, Might help a bit if the perp was going to kill my shooting. Wouldn't help a bit if the perp decided to run a car through a play ground at high speed or carry a bomb into a school
I don't know what the answer is but more gun control isn't the answer.

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#7243572 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 34648
Originally Posted By: The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted By: EthanEdwards
Originally Posted By: rod44
Good idea.
No, it's not. Another reason why Alabama's education system is in the bottom ten nationally. For one thing, it doesn't address the Federal Law preventing guns in the schools. The state, locals and school board can pass any laws and regulations they want to, but it doesn't keep the Feds from coming into any district and rounding up those carrying guns for violating the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994. All it does is identify the participants. What needs to be done is simply remove the offending Federal Law and then let whomever can legally carry do so. My guess is a bunch of state laws against carrying guns as well as local ordinances and school board policies against same. Locales which refuse to allow responsible parties to protect school children and school employees and patrons can be held accountable if something happens. In the better places, such as Wyoming and Oklahoma, there will be few problems. In places like Connecticut, at least it takes the monkey off the back of the Feds and places it back with people closer to the kids themselves. You disarm somebody and IMO you become responsible for their protection. You remove obstacles to taking responsibility for peoples' protection and that of those in their charge, and you empower them to prevent future acts of violence.
Excellent reasoning, as usual for you, but I was under the impression that the Supreme Court struck down the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994.
They may have, but it's still around in one form or another. Google it and you get a litany of years after the Act. Congress seemingly keeps changing it and bringing it back. Your schools don't still have the signs up? For awhile, I was under the impression most districts just left up the signs while they had no authority, but I'm pretty sure the law is back, modified somewhat. The rub originally was that guns weren't allowed within so many feet of a school and that violated the 2nd Amendment rights of those living within that measurement...IIRC. At any rate, I'm pretty sure it's still around, possibly with another year after it.
_________________________
Tell those protesters to kiss my ass.

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#7243601 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: Davemc]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 34648
Originally Posted By: Davemc

Arm the teacher's, Might help a bit if the perp was going to kill my shooting. Wouldn't help a bit if the perp decided to run a car through a play ground at high speed or carry a bomb into a school
I don't know what the answer is but more gun control isn't the answer.
It won't help if there is a graveyard next to the school and the Zombies arise either. You cannot plan for every last scenario. People go on and on about costs too and then something like this happens and we've got plenty of money. It doesn't happen that way. I've been an employee of the schools and also on the board. There is no full contingency plan and in real life, it does cost money to protect everybody. It's just like insurance. Obamacare has lots of connotations but at it's root is the idea everybody has the RIGHT to healthcare. Nobody has ever had the right to life let alone the means to provide it. Healthcare and the insurance thereof, costs money. It costs money to protect people too and resources are finite. The main mission of a school is education just like the main mission of a grocery store is to sell groceries. You shift a huge amount of resources to protecting people in either, and that becomes the mission, not education or grocery sales. That's where addressing the problems before they reach your doorstep comes in. Sadly, IMO we are either unwilling or unable to do so anymore, as a society. If our whole society hadn't went, to put it in clinical terms, crazier than a shixthouse rat, then possibly there wouldn't be as many individuals wishing to strike out against it.

The removal of obstacles to people taking responsibility for their own protection and that of those in their care, is the best and most cost-effective way to do this.
_________________________
Tell those protesters to kiss my ass.

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#7243611 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 2ndwind]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 34648
Originally Posted By: 2ndwind
Emphasize that psychological screening and training for extreme high stress shooting with frequent re qualifying being required.... Maybe post scores for the area sheep dog teachers in comparison to average LEO scores.... That should help to shut up the anti gun crowd .

My guess there would be elite top level instructors willing to donate their time and facilities..... Cost would be LOTS of training ammo, funding for rigorous psychological screening (sorry Hawkeye.... Don't even think about applying) and then significant bonus pay for the 2 or 3% who make the cut.....

It would work and work very well.
Unfortunately you don't know Jack or Shixt.
_________________________
Tell those protesters to kiss my ass.

Top
#7243621 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 2ndwind]
2ndwind Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/28/04
Posts: 15785
To the poster concerned about a female teacher being disarmed.... The kids are not going to know who is armed.... Any female teachers would have the same high level weapon retention and hand to hand fighting training other elite security personnel would have.....

IMO the chances of a kid over powering such a woman would be pretty remote.
_________________________
Please don't feed the trolls!

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#7243632 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 2ndwind]
2ndwind Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/28/04
Posts: 15785
Ah, isn't that cute Ethan (at least that is the name he is posting under at the moment) is offended that his best Ron Paul buddy was singled out as obviously not stable enough to qualify....
_________________________
Please don't feed the trolls!

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#7243727 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: EthanEdwards]
Archerhunter Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 14518
Loc: A sandy knoll,
You present excellent arguments, EE.

People never seem to remember the results when government gets involved, let alone takes control, over any situation. No matter how noble and righteous original intents and how well new programs and plans work... at first... history proves you're still dealing with fecal alchemists.

It's as undeniable as it is unavoidable.

More policing = more government, more rules, hoops to jump through, legal and liability problems and cases, more requirement for committees to study problems and invent solutions, more bureaucracies, etc etc, until all that remains is a very expensive, pointless, impotent, Charlie Foxtrot completely unable to deal with the source of its original intent (assuming that can any longer even be seen or remembered) let alone the confusion and corruption filled chaos created since then.

End result: they can't see the trees flames for the forest forest fire.

The simplest solution is always the best.
ESPECIALLY when gov is involved.

Relegalize the 2A and leave it alone to accomplish its obvious original intent, make government at every level stay out of the way of that, and leave the people that live and work there to do what needs done as each case, each locale, and each group of people is/are different than the next.
One size fits all solutions are just as useless, pointless, and ineffective as the guvernments and bureaucracies that dream up and implement them.

Make an effort to learn from history and apply the lessons learned. Wouldn't that be a refreshing change...



_________________________
BAN THE RAINBOW FLAG!
PERVERTS OFFEND ME!

"When is penguin season, daddy? I wanna go kill a penguin!"
---- 4 yr old Archerhuntress


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#7243735 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 1tnhunter]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Gravestone
What happens if a smaller stature female who is the armed teacher is attack and disarmed by a much larger person?

I'm not in favor of teachers carrying guns. Just seems like another reason for some scumbag who has gone thru the 8th grade for the 3rd time to assault teachers.

What i'm in favor of is armed guards train in the use of firearms and in protection of civilians.
That's a typical statist attitude. The principal can set the training standard. Smart principals will require teachers to complete a course first, to include such topics as firearms retention.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#7243754 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: EthanEdwards]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: EthanEdwards
Your schools don't still have the signs up?
If such signs are up they must be hidden from sight because I've never seen one.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

Top
#7243765 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: EthanEdwards]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: EthanEdwards
Originally Posted By: Davemc

Arm the teacher's, Might help a bit if the perp was going to kill my shooting. Wouldn't help a bit if the perp decided to run a car through a play ground at high speed or carry a bomb into a school
I don't know what the answer is but more gun control isn't the answer.
It won't help if there is a graveyard next to the school and the Zombies arise either. You cannot plan for every last scenario. People go on and on about costs too and then something like this happens and we've got plenty of money. It doesn't happen that way. I've been an employee of the schools and also on the board. There is no full contingency plan and in real life, it does cost money to protect everybody. It's just like insurance. Obamacare has lots of connotations but at it's root is the idea everybody has the RIGHT to healthcare. Nobody has ever had the right to life let alone the means to provide it. Healthcare and the insurance thereof, costs money. It costs money to protect people too and resources are finite. The main mission of a school is education just like the main mission of a grocery store is to sell groceries. You shift a huge amount of resources to protecting people in either, and that becomes the mission, not education or grocery sales. That's where addressing the problems before they reach your doorstep comes in. Sadly, IMO we are either unwilling or unable to do so anymore, as a society. If our whole society hadn't went, to put it in clinical terms, crazier than a shixthouse rat, then possibly there wouldn't be as many individuals wishing to strike out against it.

The removal of obstacles to people taking responsibility for their own protection and that of those in their care, is the best and most cost-effective way to do this.
You're on a roll. Another excellent post.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#7243773 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 1tnhunter]
tbear Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 4651
Loc: Reston, Va.
Allowing teachers to become armed guards is not the solution. I teach security guards to shoot & also work as an armed guard. Its a typical example of something that appears simple & is not. The average female teacher is not interested in guns or becoming proficient with firearms. If the gun is concealed where is the gun concealed. This is even more difficult with female teachers. Does the armed teacher have the skill & desire to put down an armed shooter? There are some on the Fire that think they are prepared to put them selves in harms way that at the moment of truth would fail. How many teachers are willing to become proficient & stay proficient with a firearm. Teachers need to focus on educating children not becoming armed guards.
_________________________
Life Members SCI & NRA. NRA Instructor & RSO. What have YOU done to support hunting & gun rights?

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#7243775 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: 2ndwind]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: 2ndwind
(sorry Hawkeye.... Don't even think about applying)
Well, at any rate, it certainly behooves you and your ilk to promote and maintain said impression. Your strategy, when you cannot defeat a man's argument, is to attack the man himself. Old as the hills, and well practiced among the left at least since Stalin.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#7243777 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Archerhunter Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 14518
Loc: A sandy knoll,
Originally Posted By: The_Real_Hawkeye
That's a typical statist attitude. The principal can set the training standard. Smart principals will require teachers to complete a course first, to include such topics as firearms retention.


And that's the part I left out above.

There's enough way too much "us vs them" attitude and separation and elitism that inevitably arises with these things as it is.

The age old "divide and conquer" MO is another of life's and history's lessons that don't seem to soak in as should. Someone involved is going to start believing himself more special than everyone else and more deserving of power and authority and his head swells and his group of followers follow and yada yada yada.
That chit gets old.
I'd think people would tire of it, see through it, and strive to avoid it.
_________________________
BAN THE RAINBOW FLAG!
PERVERTS OFFEND ME!

"When is penguin season, daddy? I wanna go kill a penguin!"
---- 4 yr old Archerhuntress


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#7243810 - 12/30/12 Re: Proposed bill would allow school administrators, teachers to carry guns [Re: Archerhunter]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70781
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Archerhunter
You present excellent arguments, EE.

People never seem to remember the results when government gets involved, let alone takes control, over any situation. No matter how noble and righteous original intents and how well new programs and plans work... at first... history proves you're still dealing with fecal alchemists.

It's as undeniable as it is unavoidable.

More policing = more government, more rules, hoops to jump through, legal and liability problems and cases, more requirement for committees to study problems and invent solutions, more bureaucracies, etc etc, until all that remains is a very expensive, pointless, impotent, Charlie Foxtrot completely unable to deal with the source of its original intent (assuming that can any longer even be seen or remembered) let alone the confusion and corruption filled chaos created since then.

End result: they can't see the trees flames for the forest forest fire.

The simplest solution is always the best.
ESPECIALLY when gov is involved.

Relegalize the 2A and leave it alone to accomplish its obvious original intent, make government at every level stay out of the way of that, and leave the people that live and work there to do what needs done as each case, each locale, and each group of people is/are different than the next.
One size fits all solutions are just as useless, pointless, and ineffective as the guvernments and bureaucracies that dream up and implement them.

Make an effort to learn from history and apply the lessons learned. Wouldn't that be a refreshing change...



Well said.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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