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#7276485 - 01/06/13 Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70
BlackDog1 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 1559
About 3 years ago, I put a post up on the fire about a 7x57 I have that was manufactured sometime in 1965. Prior to purchasing the rifle (more than 10 years go) I called Winchester and spoke to Harry in their historical dept. about it's authenticity.
Harry ran the serial number and verified that it was a 7x57 and suggested that it may have been part of a run of special order rifles produced for either Davidsons or Cherry's and/or possibly intended for European distribution.
I then went back to the gun shop and purchased the rifle based on that conversation.

After I posted it up up here on the fire, there were a number of helpful posts, for instance, I found out that the stock was of a later manufacture, what happened to the original I do not know.
It was also suggested that Winchester may have re-barreled this rifle at one point.

I have been thinking about what I should do with the rifle. I took the rifle out of the safe a few days ago and while thinking about it, I removed the the one piece scope mount that was still on the rifle in my original post,
and noticed that both the action and barrel are single proof stamped suggesting that Winchester did not re-barrel it.
There is also a 55 stamped on the underside of the barrel adjacent to the witness mark. The barrel is also not marked "Featherweight" suggesting it was a take-off barrel from a later rifle.

I'm attaching some pictures in the hope that some of you might be able to help me figure this rifle out.
I am interested in selling it and would like to put a honest and fair value on it.
I am happy to provide any additional pictures to aid in evaluating this rifle
Thanks for your time and consideration,

BD













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Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
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#7279483 - 01/07/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: BlackDog1]
Horseman Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 1396
Loc: Midwest
The 55 would suggest 1955 mfg. installed on a later receiver. Someone's put newer sights on it and a much later production stock. More pics would be nice along with most of your serial no.

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#7282710 - 01/08/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: Horseman]
BlackDog1 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 1559
Thanks for your time, here are some more pics as you requested, If there is something in particular you would like to see , please make mention of it and I'll do my best to send it along.
My only guess, and its just a guess, is that the 55 date might suggest it was a cleanup barrel from parts that was installed on this rifle when it was produced, much like the cleanup 54 barrels that were installed on early 70's. The taper on this barrel is a standard weight and BTW, where's the barrel lasset like the pre's had? . I was told the sights are correct for a '65 era rifle, and the stock is of a much later USRAC vintage. I couldn't say one way or the other because I don't know, Post 64 era guns are out of my scope of knowledge, thats why I put it up here.
Sorry about the last pic, I don't know why it came in upside down, I included it for those that my be able to identify the vintage of the roll marks. There are no other identifying marks on the barrel.

Thanks,
BD

















_________________________
Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
- Winston Churchill-

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#7287408 - 01/09/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: BlackDog1]
Jericho Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 6069
A few years ago one of the members here had a post 64 M70 sporter
in 35 REM. I believe it was a 1965 or 1966 manufacturer date.
Back in the 90s a guy in the GUNLIST had post 64 M70 sporters in
6.5x55mm and 250-3000. They were not FWTs.

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#7288780 - 01/09/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: BlackDog1]
Redneck Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 40048
Loc: WI. - for now..
The stampings on that barrel are of the style during the pre'-64 days. Especially, the '55' stamp on the bottom suggests this barrel may not be the one originally fitted to the receiver..

At the same time though, the bolt is a PF style. If the breech is of the PF style then I'm thinking a gunsmith at some point did the mods necessary to fit a pre-64 barrel to a post '64 action and removed the sight node at the same time..

Hard to say for sure.. An interesting rifle, that.. smile
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#7290143 - 01/09/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: Redneck]
blairvt Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 1277
Loc: Charlotte, NC
how does it shoot?

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#7292333 - 01/10/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: blairvt]
BlackDog1 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 1559
Jericho, I have also heard of a couple of other oddballs out there too, but have never hand my hands on one or have seen a picture either......

blairvt, I don't know.... I have never shot it..... messed up huh :0

Redneck, I would be inclined to agree with you however, the taper of the barrel is slightly thicker than a pre barrel is sans the "node" or lasset as I'm familiar with it.
I laid a '53 Std weight pre '06 adjacent to the rifle in question this evening and lined up the faces of the actions equally side by side to take the pics presented.
The roll marks don't line up in relationship to what would have been a "55 standard weight 7x57 barrel had a node been present on the rifle in question, and subsequently turned off on a lathe,
I also believe the factory roll marks of the 7x57 would have been compromised.
In the pics, one might notice that the word "trademark" lies underneath the Winchester logo on the "53.
It is absent on on the 7x57 it and has been replaced with a R within a circle after the name, the copyright logo maybe ? and something that I've never seen on a Pre, only the post 64"s .
The "53 pre also says " Made in New Haven Conn. U.S. Of America. The 7x57 says, Made in the U.S.A. another item I've only seen on "post" rifles. Frankly the roll marks and die stamps between the two barrels is vastly different given the very close proximity of age, assuming the 7x57 was a '55 take off barrel.
One other thing I feel might be worthy of mention is that to the best of my knowledge, all the model 70 barrels of pre 1960 manufacture had a a integral front ramp sight. If my understanding is correct, and if the barrel of this rifle had been shortened to remove and lathe turn the node off, It would have also been necessary to turn the integral ramp off. The barrel of the 7x57 shows no evidence of ever having that ramp nor has the rifle been polished and re-blued.
Something that may help is if I could find out when Winchester went from a "trademarked" name to a "copyrighted " name.....
any ideas????
Thanks for all the help, it's much appreciated.

BD






_________________________
Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
- Winston Churchill-

NRA Endowment Life Member

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#7293067 - 01/10/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: BlackDog1]
Poconojack Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 1078
Barrel stamping on a pre 64 is 7 M/M unlike this barrel that is stamped 7 M/M Mauser.
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#7293350 - 01/10/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: Poconojack]
reelman Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 2820
Loc: Wisconsin - Land of the PACKER...
Just my opinion but I don't think that it's a P64 barrel.

FYI only pre-war rifles had an internal front sight, later ones had a front sight that was silver soldered on. Your's is screwed on which was not done on any P64's except some target guns.

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#7294314 - 01/10/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: reelman]
Horseman Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 1396
Loc: Midwest
Soldered barrel sights started in 53 on 70's and 94's. Same year hollow bolt handles started appearing.

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#7296605 - 01/11/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: Horseman]
BlackDog1 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 1559
Thanks fella's
Are there any other resources available now to document and possibly letter the rifle? I contacted Browning a few years ago with no success . Where did Winchester's records go?
Is there a current historian /expert that is currently working on things such as this ?
I'm also extending the offer I made earlier that I'm more than happy and willing to provide photos of any part of this rifle to aid in positively identifying, documenting and possibly authenticating it. I'd also like to add that I would be interested to pay for the shipping both ways, and take care of any other associated fees for the rifle to be examined by a reputable, certifiable expert/ historian for purposes of authentication/lettering and returned to me.
I would like to mention that I'm not making this statement lightly , rather, I'm trying to demonstrate my sincerity and how earnest I am in finding out more about this rifle


Edited by BlackDog1 (01/11/13)

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#7343996 - 01/22/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: BlackDog1]
Karnis Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 11654
Loc: TX & WV
Might start here: http://www.winchestercollector.org/

I remember when you posted the pics of the rifle. Can't recall commenting on it so here goes.

Have you taken the barreled action out of the stock? Reason I ask is because the mag box would be different than say a .270. I can't recall the stamp on the box itself but I know it has a letter on it.

If the barrel was original to another rifle and set back, the taper would probably be altered and the fit of the stock would likely have to be changed or at the very least have unsightly gaps which it does not appear to have. Any changes to the barrel channel? Look like a factory finish?

How long is the barrel from the bolt face? Standard length or some oddball number? If oddball you might convert to metric which is how the European rifles are listed for sale overseas. A 60cm barrel would equal 23.6".


Edited by Karnis (01/22/13)

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#7349882 - 01/23/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: Karnis]
PrimeBeef Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/29/11
Posts: 514
Loc: Central NM
One thing I noticed is that the barrel on your 7mm has the proof mark on top. On my two pre-64 barrels, at least - a '51 and a '56 - the proof is on the left side. The caliber on those barrels is also stamped in front of the date. That's missing on your barrel.

I also agree that the roll marks are not consistent with a pre-64 barrel, and that the pre-64 front ramp would be soldered on, not screwed on.

That "55" might just be a red herring. Or it could be the barrel length. 55cm is real close to 22".

I'm inclined to go along with the European market idea. When I was stationed in Europe in the mid 70's, the military Rod & Gun Clubs would occassionally get American-manufactured rifles in oddball Continental calibers. Maybe it's a bring-back!

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#7370428 - 01/27/13 Re: Need some help with a 7x57 Mdl. 70 [Re: PrimeBeef]
BlackDog1 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/14/09
Posts: 1559
Karnis, 270mag,
The mag box has the letter "B" on the side of it and the barrel length is 55.5cm !!!!! just shy of 22". I called the WRA historian Glen Jensen at Browning last week. He informed me that the BATF has Winchesters records somewhere in their storage and that they are unavailable. During the course of our conversation he did go on and say that Winchester did manufacture rifles in this caliber and other calibers such as the 6.5 x 55 in special runs for the European market in the early post rifles. He couldn't however help me get it lettered due to the BATF holding WRA's records.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, what I've been trying to do is gather more information with the intention of determining a fair market value and selling this rifle at a price thats equitable for both parties.
IMHO, it's not a rifle a person would encounter very often, if at all. I would also appreciate some help with thoughts and opinions on what should be a realistic fair market value for this rifle.

Thanks everyone for your help,
BD
_________________________
Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
- Winston Churchill-

NRA Endowment Life Member

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