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No, the scopes are fine. They are adjustable for parallax. It's just that irons aim so much better than you think they can. Even for guys with mediocre eyes - like me. Paul Matthews once set out to test what the aiming error is with iron sights - it turns out to be about 1/4 of a minute. While a scope might beat that, it becomes relatively moot in comparison to the target and the accuracy of the rifles and the ability to hang with the conditions (that last one is the killer).



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Where can I find this comparison by Paul Matthews? I'd like to examine his methodology. My first thought is that claimed 1/4 moa would be difficult to sift out, and more probably lost in the noise.

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It is in his book, The Paper Jacket, if memory serves (dangerous assumption).

But here is his technique. It takes two people who are pretty trusting, a really good benchrest, or better, a gun vice, and a 2-way radio.

The idea is simple. Using a black bull the size of your normal sighting target for that distance, put a pin in the exact center of it. A thumbtack will do. But prick a deadcenter hole.

Now, aim the gun/vice/bench at your backstop at the designated yardage and line it up so that the sights are about centered on a clean, smooth backer board.

Have your "shooter," with breech open, sight through the rifle and, using the radio, tell the second person who is at the backstop how to move the target left and right, up and down, quickly (before eyes tire) until it is centered for a shot according to the shooter.

When this has been done, poke the thumbtack through the pin hole in the center of bull and make a hole in the backer board. That's the "shooter's" first "shot".

Remove the bull and w/o touching the rifle or moving it in any way, repeat the process 4 or 9 more times for a 5 or 10 "shot" group.

Measure the group size as the distance between the pin pricks of course.

Does that make sense?

Brent


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Thanks BrentD,
Yes, it makes sense. I am familiar with the process he used. BTW, This is the 4th time I'm telling myself I need to get that book.
One additional thought; The sights and sight radius of which you speak are probably worlds away from what the OP is describing. A FAL has battle sights and what...a 20" radius if that? BPCR has precision sights and what...30+"?

I personally shoot a scope much better than irons. If you get a chance, check out the scores of the Leech Cup vs Wimbledon (Irons vs Any (glass or iron) at 1000 yards. RGRX could tell you better, but I can't think of a Wimbledon winner that used irons. Wimbledon scores are pretty consistently better than Leech too.

I remember Nancy Tompkins shooting the Rocky Mountain Palma Match (RMPM). There were some of the hardest of the hard iron's shooters there and Nancy won. JJ Conway was there shooting F-Class before it was popular, and his score beat Nancy's handily (I think he was like 80 at the time). In addition to glass, he also used a rest, so it wasn't a perfectly fair comparison.

Part of why I shoot glass better than irons is my vision. That's a no brainer. But the other part of it hasn't been described yet. With glass, I'm watching the wind in real time. No delay in going from spotting scope to sights than going through a shot process. With glass, I'm through my process and ready to break it when I see my condition. I can also hold off very precisely if I need to and break a shot quickly. RGRX and Rost probably can do the same with irons. But I can't.

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I have long forgotten what the OP was talking about. Our rifles typically use double apertures (front and rear) and have a sight radius of 36". I'm sure that matters to a degree.


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Originally Posted by rost495
I think he was yanking ya chain there... grins.

What are you doing in Israel? I just noticed that.


Hey Jeff,

I'm working diplomatic security in the disputed territories, (west bank).


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any thing is possible with practice and a rifle with the right ammo. Most people would be surprised what a good service rifle is capable of in the hands of a man who knows the rifle. Plus you must remember, men who grew up in the early years before 1960 cut their teeth on open and peep sights, scopes were a gimmick item , not dependable and only used by very few people. I grew up in the 50's and early 60's and never used a scope on a high power rifle until the early 70's. My opinion is, you should never start a kid with a scope and should make them learn on iron sights and they will always be a better marksman in the long run. 4 inch group at 500 is very doable. Last year at our hunting cabin i was shooting at a metal plate about 8 x 10 at 300 yards off hand with a Marlin 30-30 open sights and was ringing it every time the younger guys just couldn't believe it . They just had no idea a 30-30 would do that at the distant with open sights, they sure looked at the old round and lever gun with a different prospective .


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Originally Posted by rgrx1276
Originally Posted by rost495
I think he was yanking ya chain there... grins.

What are you doing in Israel? I just noticed that.


Hey Jeff,

I'm working diplomatic security in the disputed territories, (west bank).


Head down, CYA, in our prayers! Keep up the good work!

Jeff and Carolyn


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With how many shots?

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5 its fairly easy on the right conditions. 10 makes it harder....

1 shot is really easy.


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Originally Posted by Amax
I used to shoot high power with an ex special forces army retired that will remain nameless because I don't have his permission. He told me that any High Power competitor ranked expert or above could outshoot 95% of the military snipers. I thought that was interesting, and please don't set fire to me, as I'm just repeating what he said.

John M


Yes, I would agree with that, mainly because they get to shoot a lot more than military snipers do. There is no requirement in Hi-power to be able to jumpmaster an aircraft, call for fire, call in CAS, rig an inverted-V and burst a transmission to another continent....etc.

Having said that, you do not want a Quantico or SOTIC grad drawing a bead on your azz. He won't miss the second shot.

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I"m always impressed with what snipers accomplish. Most of it without shooting.

I have almost always been not impressed when they would cycle through the shooting sports. They'd be the quality of expert at best generally and that was the very first classification I was ever issued and I thought I sucked at that point.

Of course IMHO no one should miss with a second shot. Thats way to easy.

But I may hold myself and others to a high standard.


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Originally Posted by rost495
At 600 yards we use a 3 inch spotter disc that is put in your last bullet hole, while the previous is taped shut. Target comes up and you can see your very last shot location....

ANyway I've almost never shot anything but the AR15 with iron sights in service rifle, in a jacket prone with a sling all the way to 1000 yards.

I have a spotter disc somewhere from Camp PErry from a 20 shot 600 yard match no sighters, that my pit crew gave me when we swapped relays... had 17 .224 cal holes in the 3 inch disc....

And I've shot a lot of groups that were 5 shot groups off a bench with irons testing different components at 600 yards. Almsot all have been 3-5 inch groups with the right ammo.


AND....conditions were EXTREMELY GOOD!! grin smile


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and the shooter was extremely good. Grins.... yeah right....

Was a pretty decent day now that ya mention it...


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Have shot my share of spindles out..600, 800, 900, 1000yds...mostly iron sights. But, there are a lot of folks that have shot out far more than I ever did.

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ya mean there is folks better than a Ubl?


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We shall see once I begin shooting F-TR. Moving to Phoenix in 19 days. Then the fun begins.

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Phoenix? Ya know it doesn't really snow there all winter long....

Have a safe move and good luck! Have fun!

Jeff


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