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#7294610 - 01/10/13 w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights?
300Savage Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/20/02
Posts: 576
I was having dinner last night with my son's father inlaw when the toppic of guns and shooting came up. Apparantly in the mid 1960's he was a "sharp shooter" in the South African Army and qualified by shooting a 4" group at 500 meters using an FN rifle in 7.62 Nato with open peep sights. Sounded like a feat of remarkable marksmanship. I could see a scope sighted rifle off bags on the bench doing that kind of grouping, but open sights and prone position left me wondering on the feasibility? I did not challenge his claim, only told him that was some incredible shooting. Any thoughts from competive shooters?


Edited by 300Savage (01/10/13)

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#7294814 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: 300Savage]
avagadro Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 10720
Loc: Tri-Cities, Washington State
not by me ... but I've seen some folks that rock it on a whole 'nother planet than I.
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George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted By: GOD
... That is when I carried you ...

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#7294877 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: avagadro]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
At 600 yards we use a 3 inch spotter disc that is put in your last bullet hole, while the previous is taped shut. Target comes up and you can see your very last shot location....

ANyway I've almost never shot anything but the AR15 with iron sights in service rifle, in a jacket prone with a sling all the way to 1000 yards.

I have a spotter disc somewhere from Camp PErry from a 20 shot 600 yard match no sighters, that my pit crew gave me when we swapped relays... had 17 .224 cal holes in the 3 inch disc....

And I've shot a lot of groups that were 5 shot groups off a bench with irons testing different components at 600 yards. Almsot all have been 3-5 inch groups with the right ammo.
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7294951 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
gzig5 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 411
Loc: Mequon, WI
Absolutely doable and that level of accuracy is exhibited regularly at XTC and LR matches. I'm classified as Master and have shot 100-9x with an AR service rifle on the 600 yd slow fire XTC target which I believe has a 1 MOA X-ring (6"). I've also managed 10 x's at 1000yds in Palma competition which is a .308 with aperture sights. Probably rare to achieve with a service grade rifle, but not beyond possibility.

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#7294988 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: gzig5]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
Would be rare with a service grade rifle and service grade ammo, but not at all rare with a service rifle and match ammo.

HM with Service rifle both XC and LR.


Edited by rost495 (01/10/13)
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7295180 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
avagadro Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 10720
Loc: Tri-Cities, Washington State
Originally Posted By: rost495
... but not at all rare with a service rifle and math ammo. ...


That adds up wink
_________________________
George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted By: GOD
... That is when I carried you ...

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#7295352 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: avagadro]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
Editing... good catch
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7295381 - 01/10/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
avagadro Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 10720
Loc: Tri-Cities, Washington State
Thanks ... wanna give me some shooing lessons smile
_________________________
George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted By: GOD
... That is when I carried you ...

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#7295682 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: avagadro]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
Took too many years to learn how myself... went from can't hit the paper, to hope to hit the black to piss me off if I shoot a 9.... and a 10 is a warning oops...

All I can say about shooting lessons, don't EVER discount hours of dry fire time. Flat amazing how much better I ended up shooting taking that to heart plus seeing what I could see as the hammer fell, vs that being covered up by recoil...
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7296009 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
AJ300MAG Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 11831
Loc: MBS, MI
Originally Posted By: rost495
At 600 yards we use a 3 inch spotter disc that is put in your last bullet hole, while the previous is taped shut. Target comes up and you can see your very last shot location....

ANyway I've almost never shot anything but the AR15 with iron sights in service rifle, in a jacket prone with a sling all the way to 1000 yards.

I have a spotter disc somewhere from Camp PErry from a 20 shot 600 yard match no sighters, that my pit crew gave me when we swapped relays... had 17 .224 cal holes in the 3 inch disc....

And I've shot a lot of groups that were 5 shot groups off a bench with irons testing different components at 600 yards. Almsot all have been 3-5 inch groups with the right ammo.


Seventeen shots and you didn't hit the spindle... Dood? grin

That's some awesome shooting Jeff!!!

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#7297387 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: AJ300MAG]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
yep, just never got that lucky.. grins
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7297427 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
AJ300MAG Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 11831
Loc: MBS, MI
We use 1 1/4" spotters for 600 yard F-Class. I have an uncanny knack of hitting the spindle... when the spotter is in the "9" ring.

Well I guess there IS something out there shocked eek grin

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#7297475 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: AJ300MAG]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
I probably hit most spindles in the 7 ring on "verification" shots.

Yes the wind did change that much you idiot... grins
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7298397 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: AJ300MAG]
gzig5 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 411
Loc: Mequon, WI
Originally Posted By: AJ300MAG
We use 1 1/4" spotters for 600 yard F-Class. I have an uncanny knack of hitting the spindle... when the spotter is in the "9" ring.



Hey, at least you are being consistent.

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#7298563 - 01/11/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: 300Savage]
BarryC Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/06/04
Posts: 8876
Originally Posted By: 300Savage
qualified by shooting a 4" group at 500 meters using an FN rifle in 7.62 Nato with open peep sights. Sounded like a feat of remarkable marksmanship. I could see a scope sighted rifle off bags on the bench doing that kind of grouping, but open sights and prone position left me wondering on the feasibility?

Was the rifle a FAL (L1A1)? Lots of different FN rifles. The differences are important.

Is the group possible with a FAL? Yeah, one lucky group. Likely? Probably less likely than getting hit by lightening.

The FAL is a nice battle rifle, but it sure isn't an AR nor is it an M14.
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#7303587 - 01/12/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: BarryC]
sharps4590 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/07/11
Posts: 484
Loc: Missouri
I'm going to say yes, it's possible and probably consistently doable.
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#7315696 - 01/15/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: sharps4590]
rgrx1276 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1676
Loc: Israel, Florida
I've shot several 16X cleans at 600 yards with Iron sights on a match rifle, several 14 and 15x cleans at 600 yards with a service rifle.
I think your sons FIL is probably not bullish*tting.
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#7315797 - 01/15/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rgrx1276]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
Now you've gotten a reply from one of the top shooters in the nation....
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7315875 - 01/15/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
rgrx1276 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1676
Loc: Israel, Florida
I can say the same about you my friend. I hope you and yours are doing well.
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#7316348 - 01/15/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rgrx1276]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
Don't think my skills ever came close to yours, but thanks for the comments.

Same back at ya and Happy New Year.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7321549 - 01/16/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
ChrisF Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 652
Too many missing bits of information. Rack FAL? Ball Ammo? How many shot group. Even though, I'll call b.s. The FAL is not known for it's accuracy. If some soldier here told me he qualified to be a sniper or DM by doing something like that with a rack M14 or rack M16...I'd call BS as well not only on the feat but the selection procedure as well.

It's possible for folks of the caliber that Rost and RGRX are, but they are highly trained and exceptional riflemen compared to folks like myself or even the great Lee24.


Edited by ChrisF (01/16/13)

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#7322205 - 01/16/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: ChrisF]
rgrx1276 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1676
Loc: Israel, Florida
Lee 24.....HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Good one for sure Chris .
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#7325273 - 01/17/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rgrx1276]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38335
Loc: La Grange, TX
NOoooooo had to go there eh? Well I guess Mahalo anyway.... grins.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7327303 - 01/17/13 Re: w Is it possble to shoot a 4" group at 500 meters with open sights? [Re: rost495]
ChrisF Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 652
Hujambo Jeff?

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