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#7310631 - 01/14/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Reba]
senior Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 512
Loc: Ontario Kanada
Originally Posted By: Reba
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.


Isn't that kinda backwards to everybody else's results!

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#7312543 - 01/14/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: senior]
Bulletbutt Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 10262
Loc: Between Seafire and Scott F
Originally Posted By: senior
Originally Posted By: Reba
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.


Isn't that kinda backwards to everybody else's results!


Except that with a limited slip you don't spin as soon or as often or as much...you just keep driving.
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#7312683 - 01/14/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Bulletbutt]
EZEARL Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 2957
Loc: WV

You'll never realize how GOOD your limited slip is until you drive a vehicle w/o one.

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#7312930 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: 358Norma_fan]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13855
Originally Posted By: 358Norma_fan
.
for an on road truck, Detroit locker but an off road rig you can't beat an ARB air locker.


This is bass-ackwards. That Detroit locking and unlocking will spin your ass out on an icy curve in an instant. The open diff (unlocked ARB), is just that OPEN, nothing banging and popping and unlocking.

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#7312948 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: senior]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13855
Originally Posted By: senior
Originally Posted By: Reba
I owned one pickup with an open diff. It was terrible. I install a factory unit and it was great. With the open dii it wanted to swap ends on slick pavement. With the limited slip it's fun to drive.


Isn't that kinda backwards to everybody else's results!


No, it's frickin' physics...and a fact. Having both wheels on one axle locked together is bad juju on icy roads. Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.

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#7313074 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Take_a_knee]
Rock Chuck Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 29744
Loc: Filer, ID
Quote:
Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
...as long as you keep of the throttle and don't get BOTH spinning. Then it's as bad as it gets. It's also the point of this whole thread. I wanted to hear from guys who use them on the highway (NOT off road) about how much problem they have with both sides spinning out.
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#7313127 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Take_a_knee]
358Norma_fan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 920
Loc: Anchorage Ak
Originally Posted By: Take_a_knee
Originally Posted By: 358Norma_fan
.
for an on road truck, Detroit locker but an off road rig you can't beat an ARB air locker.


This is bass-ackwards. That Detroit locking and unlocking will spin your ass out on an icy curve in an instant. The open diff (unlocked ARB), is just that OPEN, nothing banging and popping and unlocking.


Whatever, I only drive on snow and ice for 7 months out of the year, what do I know?
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#7313288 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Rock Chuck]
EZEARL Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 2957
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: Rock Chuck
Quote:
Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
...as long as you keep of the throttle and don't get BOTH spinning. Then it's as bad as it gets. It's also the point of this whole thread. I wanted to hear from guys who use them on the highway (NOT off road) about how much problem they have with both sides spinning out.


Limited slip diffs have been around forever. I'll bet more people have driven vehicles that didn't know it was equipped with one than people that did. As I said in an earlier post,you really don't know what it's like to have a limited slip until you've driven a vehicle w/o one. Even my wife says she doesn't like not having one in our Cherokee. They're that good.

How does limited slip work?
Clutch packs inside the differential create additional resistance. This resistance is always present. It is called preload. So, whenever one side wants to start rotating faster than the other, this resistance (preload), in addition to the traction present at the wheel has to be overcome before a tire can spin.
Traction and preload have to be high enough to keep tires from spinning but low enough to still allow tires to rotate at different speeds in a turn. Since the preload has to be kept low enough to allow safe cornering the slowing effect on wheels that want to spin is marginal. It works in easy off-road conditions and on mildly slippery roads. For serious off-road use and very slippery roads (snow, ice) limited slip is not powerful enough. It limits slip but it does not prevent it completely

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#7313457 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: EZEARL]
ClarkEMyers Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 681
Loc: A stones throw from Henry's Fo...
Looks to me like some people are talking past each other here. Maybe not and everybody but me knows when a clutch type posi is meant and when a locker is meant.

My own experience is that a clutch type posi is highly desirable for general use and a locker is highly desirable for specific needs. I had an early Bronco ( Spring production with a newly available 289) with a clutch type posi front and rear and never had a problem - despite warning of a slip steer effect in front I didn't see it. Drove that Bronco from Florida beaches to North Idaho with no traction control issues. I did see times on a soft surface throwing roostertails from all four corners and sliding sideways but all the wheels were driving. Compare that with the long ago very early full time 4X4 GMC with an open differential at each axle and open differential in the middle - jack one wheel up and those things wouldn't drive off the jack. If I haven't made myself clear under no circumstances would I prefer an open differential including glare ice and black ice - assuming good tires and all the rest of it. I did have an F250 highboy 4X4 that would bring the back around at the slightest provocation but that's another story of weight distribution and wheels and especially hard cross bar type tires.

Again a modern traction control system is all around better than any of the old systems but who wants to take a fancy new Audi or Benz up a logging road in deep snow - and it's imperative to have clearance for good chains but that's another issue.

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#7313530 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Rock Chuck]
fish head Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 15996
Loc: Colorado Front Range
Originally Posted By: Rock Chuck
Quote:
Having an centersection that changes drive force from a spinning wheel to a non-spinning wheel is as good as it gets.
...as long as you keep of the throttle and don't get BOTH spinning. Then it's as bad as it gets. It's also the point of this whole thread. I wanted to hear from guys who use them on the highway (NOT off road) about how much problem they have with both sides spinning out.


With a factory installed limited slip or a GM locking dif they will spin both tires going around corners and want to swap ends ... if you're in 2WD and only if you're not careful. This is more prevalent in sharp corners at low speeds rather than highway speeds on gentler corners.

As soon as you put into 4WD it becomes a non issue. Having one front wheel helping pull you through a corner reduces the tendency for the rear end to slide out at any speed. Bottom line, a limited slip rear end is very well behaved on slick roads when you're in 4WD. 2WD is an entirely different beast and if the roads are slick use 4WD. Problem solved.

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#7314078 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: fish head]
WyoCowboy Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 3593
Loc: Montana, formerly Wyoming
I have a Japanese mini truck, the rear diff is open unless in 4wd, when you engage 4WD it locks the axles, the little truck is unstoppable in the snow, a little interesting on ice but totally manageable, unfortunately their is not a lot of droop in the suspension so on rocks in low range it is real easy to crawl yourself over on to your side, fortunately the little truck weighs 1100 lbs and can be put right with a come-a-long in short order.
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#7314391 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: WyoCowboy]
BillyGoatGruff Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 5952
Loc: North Central MT
I was wondering how you were liking that outfit Wyo.

Overall you dig?

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#7315660 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: fish head]
SeanD Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 1254
Loc: Tigard OR
Originally Posted By: fish head
I should have added this. The absolute worst vehicles I've ever driven in snowy conditions were all rear wheel/open dif/one wheel drive.


I have swapped ends a few times on the highway in a LS rear diff rig always on black ice or freezing rain conditions. Also saw my dad kick the rear out and slide backwards of a gravel fs road due to both tires locking up and lack of any lateral traction. But that was off highway. My current rig is a LS tacoma and its very good in ice and snow, but i run studded snow tires after wrecking my last tacoma on black ice. Tires make more of a difference than anything.

An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive

In my opinion there is zero advantage to a LS diff on highway in slippery conditions. More likely to lose control especially going around a corner if you have your foot on the gas. Off highway they definitely have some advantages
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#7315738 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: SeanD]
fish head Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 15996
Loc: Colorado Front Range
Originally Posted By: SeanD


An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive




Sorry, but you're incorrect. Get stuck with an open dif and see how may tires turn. I guarantee you it won't be two or zero.

Or ...

Do a burn out with an open dif and see many tracks it leaves.

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#7315856 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Rock Chuck]
JohnnyLoco Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/23/09
Posts: 800
Sir,

If you are going to travel in ice & snow often you need to get an all wheel drive. You come to realize that most places we drive have some sort of road base.

You can choose to have a full electronic locker on the front and rear axles like I've used on conventional solid axle off road vehicles like my jeeps or trucks but they would never get me to the same hike, hunting, or ski-slope locations a damn suburu or (new type) Landrover would do.

I now own a Land Rover for such purpose and it has no equal. Older Land Rovers have solid axles and they suck too.

Eventhough I had fully locked and cocked vehicles, the detroit trutrac is a better option for road use. I had these front and rear on some four wheel drives and the did pretty darn good and you can learn to manipulate their traction using the emergency brake trick that works small miracles.

You have to remember unless the solid axle 4x4 vehicle comes from the factory with lockers like some toyotas, its only a two wheel drive. One front, one rear.

Tires are a waste of money you soon learn when you slide off the road in your locked jeep with studded mud tires while a subaru drives right on by. All wheel drive.

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServi...ials/PCT_221471

Let me leave you with this. Ice is a liability with any traction system and the lability increases with speed and gravity.


Edited by JohnnyLoco (01/15/13)
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#7316019 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: JohnnyLoco]
BillyGoatGruff Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 5952
Loc: North Central MT
Originally Posted By: JohnnyLoco
Sir,

If you are going to travel in ice & snow often you need to get an all wheel drive. You come to realize that most places we drive have some sort of road base.

You can choose to have a full electronic locker on the front and rear axles like I've used on conventional solid axle off road vehicles like my jeeps or trucks but they would never get me to the same hike, hunting, or ski-slope locations a damn suburu or (new type) Landrover would do.

I now own a Land Rover for such purpose and it has no equal. Older Land Rovers have solid axles and they suck too.

Eventhough I had fully locked and cocked vehicles, the detroit trutrac is a better option for road use. I had these front and rear on some four wheel drives and the did pretty darn good and you can learn to manipulate their traction using the emergency brake trick that works small miracles.

You have to remember unless the solid axle 4x4 vehicle comes from the factory with lockers like some toyotas, its only a two wheel drive. One front, one rear.Tires are a waste of money you soon learn when you slide off the road in your locked jeep with studded mud tires while a subaru drives right on by. All wheel drive.

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServi...ials/PCT_221471

Let me leave you with this. Ice is a liability with any traction system and the lability increases with speed and gravity.


And at one model of truck from Dodge. grin

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#7316085 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: EZEARL]
Pete E Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 04/11/01
Posts: 12297
Loc: North Wales, UK
Originally Posted By: EZEARL
How does limited slip work?
Clutch packs inside the differential create additional resistance. This resistance is always present. It is called preload. So, whenever one side wants to start rotating faster than the other, this resistance (preload), in addition to the traction present at the wheel has to be overcome before a tire can spin.
Traction and preload have to be high enough to keep tires from spinning but low enough to still allow tires to rotate at different speeds in a turn. Since the preload has to be kept low enough to allow safe cornering the slowing effect on wheels that want to spin is marginal. It works in easy off-road conditions and on mildly slippery roads. For serious off-road use and very slippery roads (snow, ice) limited slip is not powerful enough. It limits slip but it does not prevent it completely


So I believe that a typical factory installed limited slip is in fact different to a Detroit Locker/ Lockright The Detroit Locker and the Lockright are perhaps better thought of as automatic locking diff's in that they lock and unlock without driver imput.

If that is correct, I suspect that in icy road condition, they may behave differently to true limited slip diffs as you've described?
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#7316364 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: fish head]
SeanD Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 1254
Loc: Tigard OR
Originally Posted By: fish head
Originally Posted By: SeanD


An open diff rear is not one wheel drive. Its either two wheel drive or zero wheel drive. If you have traction both tires put equal power to the ground. If you break one free neither tire puts power to the ground so its zero wheel drive




Sorry, but you're incorrect. Get stuck with an open dif and see how may tires turn. I guarantee you it won't be two or zero.

Or ...

Do a burn out with an open dif and see many tracks it leaves.


No, you are incorrect again. I am well aware that in an open differential when one tire loses traction it spins, and you dont go anywhere.

You are confusing yourself by seeing that one tire spin. One tire spinning with no traction does not equal power to the ground and does not equal one wheel drive. An open differential applies essentially equal power to the ground through both tires. Either both tires apply power to the ground or neither do. If one tire spins due to loss of traction, neither tire is putting power to the ground and that equals zero drive.
_________________________
Sean

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#7316442 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: SeanD]
fish head Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 15996
Loc: Colorado Front Range
Well ...

We'll just have to agree to disagree. smile




Although, I'm still trying to wrap my head around zero wheel drive during a one wheel burn out that somehow makes the car go forward. Is that half wheel drive?

I'm confused. crazy

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#7316460 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: Pete E]
EZEARL Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 2957
Loc: WV

Lockers definitely behave differently but nothing one can't get use to. You control the locking and unlocking of the automatic lockers with the throttle. For instance if you let off the throttle when going into and thru a turn the rear unlocks and stays unlocked until you rethrottle. Or making a turn say from a side street you'd not use alot of throttle thereby limiting the amount torque to the axles. Sounds more complicated than it is.

Honestly I'd be completely satisfied with an aftermarket limited slip but cost is a factor. If it wasn't I might as well go with one of the better automatic lockers or better yet an on-command locker. All three types require the disassembly of the carrier requiring the ring and pinion gears to be set up again. More than likely I'll try one of the so called "lunchbox lockers" that in most cases don't require carrier removal so I can install myself.

http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f51/how-install-lunchbox-locker-lots-pics-67601/

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#7316500 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: fish head]
SeanD Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 1254
Loc: Tigard OR
With an open differential, both tires put the same (or essentially the same) power to the ground in all scenarios. The tire with the least traction is the limiting factor.

So if one tire is spinning and one is not and the rig is inching forward, both are acutally putting a small amount of power (essentially equal) to the ground.

If you think about it, its pretty easy to understand. If one wheel is completly off the ground, neither tire moves the rig forward. If one wheel has only a tiny bit of traction like during a burnout, both tires aplly power the ground to move the rig foward, the amount of power put to the ground is limited by the traction of the tire thats spinning since it has the least traction (and on an open diff its usually on the side with less vertical force due to the rotation of the driveline and weight distribution). Increase the traction and increase the power to the ground.
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#7316530 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: SeanD]
EZEARL Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 2957
Loc: WV

Yep. All the rotational energy goes to the side with the least resistance. Hence your one wheel burn out.

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#7316573 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: EZEARL]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5795
Loc: Montana
cool diff vid

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#7316678 - 01/15/13 Re: Limited slip question [Re: toad]
EZEARL Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 2957
Loc: WV

+1 So simple even a caveman can understand it.

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