24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,264
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,264
Originally Posted by Whitworth1
Originally Posted by jwp475


E the pressure is lower today. The old Rem loads chrono higher than most loads today. Some don't clock more than 1180 with 240's and that's a fact


I have to agree. .44 Mag ammo nowadays is not nearly as hot as it was. Even loading manuals have dialed back loads for the .44 Mag if I can recall correctly. And I don't think that a Model 25 cannot withstand the loads a BH can eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.


yep, the original loads often had 240's at 1470 fps, now most 240gr loads are under 1300 fps.

The .357 mag also got throttled back about the same time.


"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

BP-B2

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
Originally Posted by Whitworth1
Originally Posted by jwp475


E the pressure is lower today. The old Rem loads chrono higher than most loads today. Some don't clock more than 1180 with 240's and that's a fact


I have to agree. .44 Mag ammo nowadays is not nearly as hot as it was. Even loading manuals have dialed back loads for the .44 Mag if I can recall correctly. And I don't think that a Model 25 cannot withstand the loads a BH can eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.


yep, the original loads often had 240's at 1470 fps, now most 240gr loads are under 1300 fps.

The .357 mag also got throttled back about the same time.
How much of it is actually "throttling back" the loads as opposed to just being more realistic about the velocities achieved?

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
Originally Posted by Whitworth1
Originally Posted by jwp475


E the pressure is lower today. The old Rem loads chrono higher than most loads today. Some don't clock more than 1180 with 240's and that's a fact


I have to agree. .44 Mag ammo nowadays is not nearly as hot as it was. Even loading manuals have dialed back loads for the .44 Mag if I can recall correctly. And I don't think that a Model 25 cannot withstand the loads a BH can eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.


yep, the original loads often had 240's at 1470 fps, now most 240gr loads are under 1300 fps.

The .357 mag also got throttled back about the same time.
How much of it is actually "throttling back" the loads as opposed to just being more realistic about the velocities achieved?



Definitely throttled back. I chrono'ed some old factory loads a few years ago and 240's were over 1450 FPS and many of todays factory load are in the 1180 to 1250 FPS range. Buffalo Bore loads are in the 1400 FPS range



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
I agree completely, jwp. The .357 has also been emasculated over the years.


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812

Quote
The old SAAMI pressure standards are stated in CUP whereas the new standards are rated in psi. For 357 Mag, the old standard was 46,000 CUP, which converts to 43,500 psi. SAAMI lowered 357 Mag pressure limits to 35,000 psi, which is a about a 25% reduction. 44 Mag old standards were 43,500 CUP, which converts to 40,600 psi. The new SAAMI standard is 36,000 psi, which is a little over a 10% reduction. There's still a lot of old "CUP" data floating around that was tested with the crusher method.

So ... the reduction in pressure standards was to extend the usable life of 357 Mag and 44 Mag revolvers.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
IC B2

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
+2

I had access to some old (WW2 era) 357 Magnum loads and they chrono'd very, very fast... much faster than any other factory ammo I've ever tested except for Lee Jurras's SuperVel. I lucked into a full case of SuperVel about 14 years ago and still have most of it, and it's wonderful stuff. I handload my hunting ammo to basically duplicate that SuperVel.

I've not personally chrono'd old 44 Mag ammo, but one of my shooting buds back in WI has done so. He's now a retired cop, but back in the day he carried S&W revolvers on duty, and off-duty carried a Model 29. He has ammo from the earliest days, and he has confirmed that the early ammo was very, very hot; much hotter than anything put out by the factories nowadays. Gary has killed more deer with the 44 Mag in revolvers and lever rifles than most hunters have killed with all their calibers combined. He still handloads his 44's to the old specs.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812

Quote
Ruger revolvers are designed and built a lot stronger than S&Ws so Ruger never complained about pressures being too high. However, it didn't take long to learn that Rugers would hold up much longer with reduced chamber pressure too. If you use the old reloading charts (rated in CUP) and load at the high end, it will not blow your gun up but it will certainly make it wear out faster. BTW, if you buy factory ammo made in Europe under their CIP pressure standards (Europe's version of SAAMI), they still maintain the higher pressure standards. Sellier & Beloit is one of the brands. Some of their 357 ammo is loaded to 43,500 psi and some of their 44 Mags are loaded to 40,600 psi. All US ammo manufacturers have changed to the lower SAAMI pressure ratings except a few like Corbon and Buffalo Bore. SAAMI still maintains the old CUP standards on the books but some day they will be phased out.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Originally Posted by DocRocket
+2

I had access to some old (WW2 era) 357 Magnum loads and they chrono'd very, very fast... much faster than any other factory ammo I've ever tested except for Lee Jurras's SuperVel. I lucked into a full case of SuperVel about 14 years ago and still have most of it, and it's wonderful stuff. I handload my hunting ammo to basically duplicate that SuperVel.

I've not personally chrono'd old 44 Mag ammo, but one of my shooting buds back in WI has done so. He's now a retired cop, but back in the day he carried S&W revolvers on duty, and off-duty carried a Model 29. He has ammo from the earliest days, and he has confirmed that the early ammo was very, very hot; much hotter than anything put out by the factories nowadays. Gary has killed more deer with the 44 Mag in revolvers and lever rifles than most hunters have killed with all their calibers combined. He still handloads his 44's to the old specs.
Obviously a dude that doesn't own a Lyman manual... laugh

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
The data you cite was taken from a 240 gr. SP Remington load fired from a 4 inch vented, pressure test barrel, not a 6.5 inch revolver barrel.
Some of the original factory swagged lead, 240 gr. ammo was loaded beyond the pressure standards of 40,000 CUP. Winchester, for instance ran a lot like that. It tested at 45,000 CUP.
But the standards have not changed. It's still either 36,000 psi or 40,000 CUP.
The loading companies have learned to publish better, more accurate loading data because their testing equipment is now more accurate. Capable of recording sudden spikes, not averages as before. In other words, some of the older data was too hot. Rifle data has shown the same trend. E

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812



You haven't read every thing that I posted or you are just not comprehending but you are flat wrong on this



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
IC B3

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,264
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,264
It's been reported a few times that cases have gotten thicker over time, with less capacity, and that change has reduced safe powder charges, too. EK's famous load for the .44 mag was 22 gr of 2400, under his Keith bullet. 20 years ago folks started suggesting 21gr was better, now I think even the less conservative guys are saying 20gr.


"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,529
E
EdM Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
E
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,529
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
It's been reported a few times that cases have gotten thicker over time, with less capacity, and that change has reduced safe powder charges, too. EK's famous load for the .44 mag was 22 gr of 2400, under his Keith bullet. 20 years ago folks started suggesting 21gr was better, now I think even the less conservative guys are saying 20gr.


This is due to 2400 changing over the years.


Conduct is the best proof of character.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Nonsense. There is no conversation rate fort CUP measurements to PSI.
The original .357 Magnum ammo was loaded to 45,000 CUP. So what ?
Again, some of the factory swagged lead ammo was loaded to more than the 40,000 CUP limit set for the .44 Magnum. But pressure limit was still 40,000 CUP.
BTW, there are no swagged lead, full power loads out there for the .44 Magnum any longer.
The bottom line is that the pressure limits for the .44 Magnum were not reduced to go easy of the Smith & Wesson revolvers. Same pressure levels just different method of measuring it.
The factories may be loading them on the light side these days. As opposed to loading them too hot in the past.
So what ? It has nothing to do with the strenth of the S&W revolvers made for the .44 Magnum. E

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812


"E: where have you been. Denton (Denton Bramble) has a conversion has wriTten about it in articles and posted about the conversion of CUPS to PSI

You are behind the times



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
H
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
Both the 357 and 44 Magnums have had their SAAMI pressure limits reduced, be it CUP or psi.

Single shot/Contender data still adheres to the "old" limits.


As far as cases go, at least in 44 Magnum; I have cases from the late 60's early 70's of Winchester (Western) and R-P make that are far heavier and have nominally thicker walls than ones fro the 2000's, FWIW.

Brian Pearce has hashed out just about every topic we are bantering in print.....

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,706
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,706
A good while back a friend bought a 4" GP100 357 mag and I took him to the range to shoot a variety of ammo. One combination was the old high pressure Speer max charge of Blue Dot under a 125 JHP. The muzzle blast was loud and sharp enough to get the firing line tin roof to sing.

Even close to twenty years later the "roof ringer load" comes up in conversation. grin

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
JWP, I just read his response to your inquiry over on the gun writers forum. He's never done any work with handgun loads.
Second, he discovered a relationship, not a conversion formula, in rifle cartriages that changes as the pressure increases.
This is all a long way from what we were discussing. Which was the fact that .44 Magnum pressure standards were not changed because S&W revolvers couldn't handle the so called old pressure standards or for any other reason. That's not to say that some loading companies haven't reduced the pressures of their factory offerings. Some may have. Still not the point.
Are you aware that special ammunition is loaded to verify pressure testing equipment ? This standard ammo for the .44 Magnum was never changed. Just the way it's pressure is measured.
I do seem to recall that the pressure standards for the .357 Magnum were changed. I could be mistaken on this, but I seem to recall that the original ammo leaded badly and was very hard to control, both of which were problems for law enforcement. So, among other changes, it was loaded differently to meet their needs. E

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by denton

I actually never derived a formula for pistols.

The whole project started when I wanted to figure out the PSI limit for my milsurp Swede. As I looked at the rifle data, and as I tested it statistically, it had some curvature to it. But the curvature was slight, and a straight line was a very good approximation if you limited pressures to between 30 KPSI and 65 KPSI. That answered my burning question, and that is all the farther I took it. So I published my finding with those pressure limits.

My comments caused quite an uproar, since many people were convinced of the correctness of SAAMI's incorrect statement that PSI and CUP were not correlated, and that one could not be calculated from the other. So it was with some pleasure that I discovered that Dr. Brownell had reached my conclusion a few decades earlier. It was especially nice that he used equipment I had worked on at Tektronix, and that he was trained by the same people who trained me. (Dang, I feel old!)

Here are his graphs. He is using the term "Correlation Factor" incorrectly, but you'll get the right idea looking at his work.

Basically, he confirms what you've probably heard before: At low pressure, CUP=PSI. As pressure increases, CUP systematically underestimates PSI.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]



They correlate well at the pressure range that we are discussing




I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
H
Campfire Ranger
Online Content
Campfire Ranger
H
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,914
"Later, the small arms technical people increased the velocity specs and also went to jacketed bullets, greatly increasing both pressures and velocities."
"Dr. Nippe sent a box of these loads to White's Labratory and they varied 11,600 psi in just ten rounds and some loads went to 50,000 psi.."

"In my humble opinion, 35,000 psi should be the limit for pressure of factory loads for the .44 Magnum and velocity should stay around 1,400 fps. Anything much over that is hard on the guns and will not deliver the same accuracy. Even 3,000 rounds with factory loads these fine guns lose accuracy and need tightening up"
"Factory American loads I have recently tested from Remington are back to a more normal pressure. I have not tried any late issue from Winchester-Western, but for a time both makes were far overloaded to my notion"
-Elmer Keith, 1973.

I also find it interesting that Elgin Gates, at the dawn of IHMSA that guns made by Ruger, Dan Wesson and Seville easily made the durabilty grade while Smiths emphatically did not; some literally falling apart on the line.

FWIW, Ross Seyfried also used Keith's recommended load in 3 4" 29's. His last one (in the 1990's) was on its last legs.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 579
G
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
G
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 579
[/quote] WRONG The first N frames were the 38/44 ,which

were the first 357 loaded to near mag loads [/quote]

Actually, S&W's first N-frame was the New Century (Triple Lock) in .44 Special in 1907-1908. They didn't start heat-treating the frames and cylinders until the Second Model Hand Ejector.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
710 members (160user, 12344mag, 10gaugemag, 1Akshooter, 10Glocks, 1beaver_shooter, 74 invisible), 3,061 guests, and 1,414 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,679
Posts18,399,604
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.165s Queries: 15 (0.006s) Memory: 0.9021 MB (Peak: 1.0814 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 21:31:50 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS