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I posted this in a different forum but have not really had much response. I am hoping somebody here can provide some answers.

Can someone tell me what the deal is with the TBBC bullets? Speer is now making them but nothing is listed on their website. And Federal loads them in their premium ammo line. Is there any difference since Speer took them over? What are your results with them regarding performance and accuracy?


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They are not sold as component bullets. Federal was going to start selling the new TBBC Tip as component bullets a few years ago, but never got around to it.

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I have 500 180gr .308 TBBC's I picked up from Croc1972. I had some of the original TBBC's but have heard rumors that they made some major changes when Speer took them over and trying to learn more about it.


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I've never played with the Speer versions that were once availiable to handloaders. But I have done a fair amount of hunting and shooting with both the new and older versions.
In my M70 FWT, .308 or my old 700 VSFS, the older factory loads never impressed me with their accuracy. About 2.5 MOA in the M70 Fwt. and 1.5 MOA in the heavy barreled Remington.
I pulled the old bullets and found that a charge of 44 grs of Varget reduced the groups in the M70 to 1.5 MOA or slightly less.
The new factory loads are much different. In my custom '06, they shoot MOA for 3 at either 100 or 300 yds. That's the 180 gr. load, so I don't fool with them.
But, with the 165 gr. loads, my M70, .308 was still shooting 2.5 MOA. I tried pulling the bullets and reloading them. It is a very frustrating experience. The bullets and the cases are both nickel plated. I can't even get them to crimp in place very well. 44 grs. of Varget fills the case so much that the powder charge is highly compressed due to the very long bullets. And they don't shoot much better, maybe 1.75 MOA.
But the significant thing is the bullets will move in the case if stressed much. Not acceptable for hunting. Factory loads apparently are cemented in place. They don't pull easily at all.
This is why I doubt you'll see the new designs availiable to handloaders.
I do like the older designs. The last I heard, they are still made for tactical applications. It seems they stay on course when shot through angled window glass. Something I think a hunter would appreciate if he shoots through any brush. E

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My hunting buddy used the older ones to good effect when they were available as components.

I run North Fork bullets instead and have been very happy with them.


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I've thought seriously about trying them myself. E

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I have shot both styles and absolutely love the old recipe TBBC's. There are rather significant differences between the old (original) TBBC made by Jack Carter and the newest iteration, made by Speer.

Back in October 2005 I flew to New Mexico to hunt elk. At the Atlanta airport I purchased the latest issue of Peterson's Hunting magazine. This was the first week of October, so I am pretty sure it was the "October" issue. There was an article in that issue dealing with precisely that question. It was not the most complimentary article and basically called out Speer for shooting the goose that laid the golden egg because Speer messed with something that did NOT need messing with! The article started out by the author stating he was receiving letters from PH's in Africa, basically asking "what the devil is going on with the TBBC's?". The time tested TBBC's were now made by Speer and were failing in the eyes of the PH's when used on heavy/big game over there. Limited expansion and petals shearing off were two noticeable complaints. The author then explained that the original TBBC's were made with a copper jacket. The perception is/was, copper jacketed bullets can be "sticky" in the bore at times, foul badly, and have so so accuracy associated with them because of this. Speer decided to "fix" this and make their TBBC's from gilding metal, rather than copper and tweak it a bit to narrow the expansion (allowing, in theory, greater penetration). Original TBBC's are prone to have relatively wide expansion, compared to similar bullets, and sometimes this has shown to have a parachute effect, slowing down the expanded bullet in tissue.

Long story short (sorry so windy) is that the New Speer/Federal TBBC had perceived problems with the petals shearing off and the end result, based on the photos in the article, looked like some of the "TSX Failure" pictures posted from time to time. The PH's in Africa were screaming for Speer to fix it or they were not going to be seen using them in Africa any more. The author took Speer to task in print and said, in so many words, "Fix it! You are ruining a great bullet!"

Speer never fixed it, and today there is no comparison between the two in my opinion. I will add a disclaimer here: Some folks like the Speer variety better because of the perceived accuracy, less fouling, and they just seem to love penetration over expansion. My personal experience is this: They always shot great for me...I never really had much of an issue with fouling and they will always be my preferred bullet for elk, or anything larger. I laid into a lifetime supply of 30 cal 180 and 200 grain bullets and will never look back. With respect to penetration I have no idea how much more penetration I need, as every elk I have shot with it lays em down like they were struck by lightning and penetration was off the charts. My biggest bull ever (358 2/8" net B&C, 996#) was taken quartering on through the shoulder and the bullet ended up in the pelvic canal on top of the bladder of that bull, fully expanded! I'd say penetration was fine. And the bullet was as pretty as could be after smashing the shoulder joint. Here is a pic after it penetrated, what 5 feet? If I could, I'd search high and low for some of the old stuff...if I could not find any, Hawk or North Fork bullets will get the job done in similar fashion and you won't miss a beat.

[Linked Image]



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I bought a batch of those too, awhile back. Mine have a T stamped in the base. Are these the old ones or ones made by Speer.


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I managed to scrounge up a healthy supply of the discontinued Federal Safari Premium 300gr. TBBC as my AHR .375 H&H shoots it extremely well.

My Talkeetna unfortunately doesn't like the older stuff, but loves the newest TBBC that Federal is loading. I ended up taking this to Zimbabwe this past summer and the bullet performed flawlessly on lioness, bushpig, and giraffe.

My PH is "old school" and absolutely loved the original TBBC. He was rather skeptical of the new stuff, but after digging one out of a giraffe and seeing how well it penetrated and the text book mushroom, he softened his stance and indicated although it wouldn't be his recommendation/preference, he wouldn't be adverse nor concerned with a hunter using them to hunt cape buffalo.

Although, he made sure to press home and stress that his personal opinion was that A-Frames were better. wink

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There were at least two Carter produced versions of the TBBC as I recall. The first version appeared similar in construction to a Swift Scirocco minus the tip and sleek shape and the other resembled the Federal produced TBBC's.
The first version expanded very wide and limited penetration as I recall.

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Originally Posted by Godogs57
I have shot both styles and absolutely love the old recipe TBBC's. There are rather significant differences between the old (original) TBBC made by Jack Carter and the newest iteration, made by Speer.

Back in October 2005 I flew to New Mexico to hunt elk. At the Atlanta airport I purchased the latest issue of Peterson's Hunting magazine. This was the first week of October, so I am pretty sure it was the "October" issue. There was an article in that issue dealing with precisely that question. It was not the most complimentary article and basically called out Speer for shooting the goose that laid the golden egg because Speer messed with something that did NOT need messing with! The article started out by the author stating he was receiving letters from PH's in Africa, basically asking "what the devil is going on with the TBBC's?". The time tested TBBC's were now made by Speer and were failing in the eyes of the PH's when used on heavy/big game over there. Limited expansion and petals shearing off were two noticeable complaints. The author then explained that the original TBBC's were made with a copper jacket. The perception is/was, copper jacketed bullets can be "sticky" in the bore at times, foul badly, and have so so accuracy associated with them because of this. Speer decided to "fix" this and make their TBBC's from gilding metal, rather than copper and tweak it a bit to narrow the expansion (allowing, in theory, greater penetration). Original TBBC's are prone to have relatively wide expansion, compared to similar bullets, and sometimes this has shown to have a parachute effect, slowing down the expanded bullet in tissue.

Long story short (sorry so windy) is that the New Speer/Federal TBBC had perceived problems with the petals shearing off and the end result, based on the photos in the article, looked like some of the "TSX Failure" pictures posted from time to time. The PH's in Africa were screaming for Speer to fix it or they were not going to be seen using them in Africa any more. The author took Speer to task in print and said, in so many words, "Fix it! You are ruining a great bullet!"

Speer never fixed it, and today there is no comparison between the two in my opinion. I will add a disclaimer here: Some folks like the Speer variety better because of the perceived accuracy, less fouling, and they just seem to love penetration over expansion. My personal experience is this: They always shot great for me...I never really had much of an issue with fouling and they will always be my preferred bullet for elk, or anything larger. I laid into a lifetime supply of 30 cal 180 and 200 grain bullets and will never look back. With respect to penetration I have no idea how much more penetration I need, as every elk I have shot with it lays em down like they were struck by lightning and penetration was off the charts. My biggest bull ever (358 2/8" net B&C, 996#) was taken quartering on through the shoulder and the bullet ended up in the pelvic canal on top of the bladder of that bull, fully expanded! I'd say penetration was fine. And the bullet was as pretty as could be after smashing the shoulder joint. Here is a pic after it penetrated, what 5 feet? If I could, I'd search high and low for some of the old stuff...if I could not find any, Hawk or North Fork bullets will get the job done in similar fashion and you won't miss a beat.

[Linked Image]



This is my understanding of the whole TBBC situation as well;and Bwalker is correct regarding the very early and original TBBC's.I had some of these in 30 caliber and 375 as well.....These were patterned after the Bitterroot after Carter and John Wooters used those bullets in Africa in the 70's.Carter tried to partner up with Bitterroot for mass production but that never happened and Carter started making his own bullet.

But like Bwalker says the early design did not work like a Bitterroot,so Carter went to a sold shank/lead tip bullet and I think these are the one's that performed well,like Godogs states above.

I got a lot of lectures from Bill Steigers that the best cooper and pure lead were the only materials that made his bonded bullets perform like they did...if the stuff did not meet his standards, he sent it back.So when Speer/Federal or whoever started making TBBC's from alloy jackets and cores it was no surprise that people squawked.Both are more brittle than pure copper/lead and jackets will shear under high impact velocity.But the alloys are easier and cheaper to machine and make bullets.

Terry Wieland and Robin Hurt(sp),a PH from Tanzania, made the most noise about this stuff a few years ago.I'm not sure what the newest TBBC's are made from but they might be the best of them all from what little I have read about them.

Smaller frontal areas and deeper penetration is a general rule only and when a bullet expands like Godogs did in that elk,but expansion is arrested at that point, the bullet will continue to dig,and I am not surprised that his went almost lengthwise on a bull elk as I have seen it myself.This is where weight retention helps and keeps that broad mushroom moving forward.Of course rubbery, thick hide will stop them at the end of a wound channel,because the bullet is kinda out of gas.

Last edited by BobinNH; 03/05/13.



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Originally Posted by M1Tanker

Can someone tell me what the deal is with the TBBC bullets? Speer is now making them but nothing is listed on their website. And Federal loads them in their premium ammo line.


As stated, they're no longer available as component bullets. To me, it appears that ATK bought Speer/CCI because they wanted a bullet & ammunition factory (and maybe primers?), but NOT because they care about the handloading market. Too bad, because Speer makes or made my preferred components.

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I need some 55 grain .224 Bear Claws

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I've got some 30 cal, 180 & 200 grain, for sale.


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Originally Posted by MZ5
Originally Posted by M1Tanker

Can someone tell me what the deal is with the TBBC bullets? Speer is now making them but nothing is listed on their website. And Federal loads them in their premium ammo line.


As stated, they're no longer available as component bullets. To me, it appears that ATK bought Speer/CCI because they wanted a bullet & ammunition factory (and maybe primers?), but NOT because they care about the handloading market. Too bad, because Speer makes or made my preferred components.


That explains what happened to the DeepCurl bullets. They were a great bullet for the money. I was sad to see them discontinued. Performance was very similar to a Partition.

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Originally Posted by hanco
I need some 55 grain .224 Bear Claws


Occasionally Rocky Mountain Reloading has them as pulls. I've bought them a couple times and have always been happy. I use the 62 gr TBBC a lot in my 22-250 and they hammer deer.


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Is your 22-250 a 1 in 14 twist barrel?

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Originally Posted by LBP
Originally Posted by hanco
I need some 55 grain .224 Bear Claws


Occasionally Rocky Mountain Reloading has them as pulls. I've bought them a couple times and have always been happy. I use the 62 gr TBBC a lot in my 22-250 and they hammer deer.


Is this the 62 gr. TBBC? Same as Fusion?

http://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets-...il-bonded-soft-point-new/?v=7516fd43adaa

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No. Speer makes a 62gr TBBC in the "Tactical Bonded" line for law enforcement. Rocky Mountain Reloading (and others) get the lots that fail quality control for whatever reason and sell the pulled bullets.


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