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Originally Posted by David_Walter
..............,having been joined into the Union, no individual state, or group of states, could constitutionally succeed from the Union without a majority vote of the other states, .............


Where did the Constitution mandate that?

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Originally Posted by Henryseale
A fine speach by Lincoln, no doubt. However, I find it curiously hypocritical of him to state that "a government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." He was then the C-in-C of the largest military force ever assembled in the western hemisphere whose declared sole purpose was to deny that exact same right of self govenment he described to his former contrymen. Kinda like back when Obummer was campaigning for his first term when he stated that America was the greatest nation on earth, then asked for support so he could fundamentally change it. People for the most part seem to hear the tone of the words spoken and are impressed by that, but seldom do they seem to actually listen to what is being said.
Well said.

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Originally Posted by pira114
Originally Posted by David_Walter
..............,having been joined into the Union, no individual state, or group of states, could constitutionally succeed from the Union without a majority vote of the other states, .............


Where did the Constitution mandate that?
Of course it did not.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by pira114
Originally Posted by David_Walter
..............,having been joined into the Union, no individual state, or group of states, could constitutionally succeed from the Union without a majority vote of the other states, .............


Where did the Constitution mandate that?
Of course it did not.


Where does it allow succession, or state the procedures for succession?


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Originally Posted by David_Walter

Where does it allow succession, or state the procedures for succession?
You've got it backwards. The Federal Government is presumed to have been intentionally denied any powers not delegated to it by the states in the text of the US Constitution. Any powers not delegated to it, therefore, have been reserved by the states to themselves as part of their original sovereign power.

In case at some point in the future the above principle might become unclear to anyone, the Founders insisted that one of the ten articles of the Bill of Rights laid it out in no uncertain terms, i.e., the Tenth Amendment. Read it.

Therefore, since the States never delegated away the sovereign power of self-determination, they retain said power, which they only held in dormancy for as long as the Federal Government continued to exercise its delegated powers "in such a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

They had just fought a long and arduous war with England over this very principle, i.e., the right of secession. Therefore it's the height of absurdity to suggest they would immediately thereafter engage in a pact with a newly established central power which denied that very principle.

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Originally Posted by bartman
Mr Walter the ideal is represented by the flag, perhaps you could go over the fine points of Lincoln's administration and narratives in Libya or Burma.


Junior Bartman,

I know nothing about your history or your service, or lack thereof. However, I have earned my right to comment the hard way. Perhaps you should do the same?





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Henryseale and Hawkeye,

Both of your arguments are valid and eloquent.

I do not believe the Constitution restricts the sovereign powers of the states to succeed. I said Lincoln did.

I also never tied Lincoln's actions to any belief on his part about, or because of, slavery. I stated my own belief that owning another human was and remains an abhorrent practice, worthy of fighting a war over.


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Originally Posted by David_Walter
Henryseale and Hawkeye,

Both of your arguments are valid and eloquent.

I do not believe the Constitution restricts the sovereign powers of the states to succeed. I said Lincoln did.

I also never tied Lincoln's actions to any belief on his part about, or because of, slavery. I stated my own belief that owning another human was and remains an abhorrent practice, worthy of fighting a war over.
There are many nations today that retain the practice of human chattel. Should we declare war on all these nations?

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Originally Posted by 257heaven
Originally Posted by LBP
Originally Posted by 17ACKLEYBEE
Every flag in every Red State should be upside down and at half mast until oberry is out of office.


+1


Plus about a gazillion!



Then add another 10000000000000000 gazillion. mad

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"...As a result of the many traitors and enemies we as a free people have, both foreign and domestic,..."

We have never had so many domestic enemies prior to 0 and his supporters.


"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon

"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg

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Just me, but the way I interpret the American flag flying upside down is symbolic of a wrong that needs to be righted.

I don't find it offensive or disrespectful.

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Originally Posted by fish head
Just me, but the way I interpret the American flag flying upside down is symbolic of a wrong that needs to be righted.

I don't find it offensive or disrespectful.


Same here FH, a definate cleansing needs to happen at 1600 Pa av.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
There are many nations today that retain the practice of human chattel. Should we declare war on all these nations?


No.

But I think it should not be tolerated in our country.



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This is just political theatrics.

If I fly the flag upside down, It's a signal for all my friends with guns to come immediately because I'm in some deep [bleep], at the location where the flag is flown.


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Correct, it's also like flying a double 'fook you' to the politico trash.

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I get that, like I said, theater.

Too many good people died fighting under that flag for me to cheapen it like that.

Others will have differing opinions.

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Originally Posted by David_Walter
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
There are many nations today that retain the practice of human chattel. Should we declare war on all these nations?


No.

But I think it should not be tolerated in our country.

It was already on the verge of disappearing in the US, and had been common practice throughout the world for the vast majority of human history. The war wasn't worth the terrible consequences. Growing organized social opposition would have soon been rid of it anyway.

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Originally Posted by pal
"...As a result of the many traitors and enemies we as a free people have, both foreign and domestic,..."

We have never had so many domestic enemies prior to 0 and his supporters.


They've been there and increasing in numbers over the years. What obama did was empower them. And we'll never get it all back.


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Originally Posted by fish head
Just me, but the way I interpret the American flag flying upside down is symbolic of a wrong that needs to be righted.

I don't find it offensive or disrespectful.


Just to be fair I can see where flying the American flag upside down would be entirely inappropriate. At a military base, a govt installation or anywhere the flag is a symbol of the USA. Having to salute an upside down flag is unthinkable.

With that said though a private citizen displaying the message of a wrong that's needs to righted is still OK by me.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
This is just political theatrics.

If I fly the flag upside down, It's a signal for all my friends with guns to come immediately because I'm in some deep [bleep], at the location where the flag is flown.


Agreed


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