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Originally Posted by reelman
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by reelman
So if you wouldn't use a gun for self defense that wouldn't reliably kill a deer what are you carrying? A 44Mag, 500S&W, 460S&W? Because you beloved 45acp or 357 is not exactly a deer killer and in the hunting word they would both be considered the bare minimum.



This is total and complete BS. If you think that with the correct bullets that a 45 ACP and a 357 is not adequate for deer then you or sadly mistaken. I have taken a few deer and a lot of hogs with the 357 mag and the 45 ACP and every one that I killed thought they were perfectly adequate



BULL! They may kill a deer or hog at close range but they are the bare minimum for deer sized game. Standard rule of thumb is 1000 ft/lbs for deer and neither of those comes close. People have killed deer with 22lr's but I wouldn't call them adequate for deer would you? It seems when it comes to hogs people pull out all kinds of odd stuff to shoot them with that they wouldn't consider to shoot a deer with and that aren't even legal to shoot a deer with in a lot of states.


Reelman -- gotta respond to this. ME is a terribly measure of lethality, but a perfect marketing tool to sell ammo. I don't know many handgun hunters (and I know quite a few) who place any stock in ME. It is a meaningless number that determines nothing from a terminal standpoint.

Carry on, gentlemen!


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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
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Originally Posted by mog75
Just can't imagine a guy not having a deer rifle.


Here's one of mine:

[Linked Image]

Deer rifle? Nah, deer revolver! grin


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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Sorry Whitworth. I should have added "Or a handgun chambered in a more capable cartridge." I am not against deer hunting with a handgun, but I do think the minimum caliber requirements are there for a good reason. North dakota requires at least a 357 magnum for deer hunting. The cartridge length requirements even disqualify the 45acp.


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Originally Posted by mog75
Sorry Whitworth. I should have added "Or a handgun chambered in a more capable cartridge." I am not against deer hunting with a handgun, but I do think the minimum caliber requirements are there for a good reason. North dakota requires at least a 357 magnum for deer hunting. The cartridge length requirements even disqualify the 45acp.


But often times the minimums seem more or less arbitrary and they were determined by those with a complete lack of understanding. That is one of the reasons I put little faith in there really being something behind minimum standards. When I start hearing ME minimums I cannot help but to react negatively as I have seen nothing less significant in determining lethality.


Max Prasac

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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Originally Posted by 700LH
I have shot and or seen enough critters cleaned to know for fact, two pictures of two different wounds, from two different bullets, doesn't, (to put it bluntly) equate to squat in the real world.

You aren't gonna like that, but the truth doesn't always = feel good.




WTF are you talking about, even a visual aid can't help some



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Originally Posted by mog75
Sorry Whitworth. I should have added "Or a handgun chambered in a more capable cartridge." I am not against deer hunting with a handgun, but I do think the minimum caliber requirements are there for a good reason. North dakota requires at least a 357 magnum for deer hunting. The cartridge length requirements even disqualify the 45acp.



Shows how little the law maker knew that drafted the requirement. I have taken deer and hogs with both a 357 mag and a 45 ACP when loaded properly both are perfectly adequate and do an excellent job in the terminal department. I prefer the 45, but when I started in the late 60's I thought that the 357 was head and shoulders above the 45 ACP because of FPE advantage of the 357. Over several decades of taking game with a handgun I came to realize that they 45 ACP does not take a back seat to the 357





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Originally Posted by 700LH
I have shot and or seen enough critters cleaned to know for fact, two pictures of two different wounds, from two different bullets, doesn't, (to put it bluntly) equate to squat in the real world.

You aren't gonna like that, but the truth doesn't always = feel good.


Actually, in the grand scheme of things, this was a pretty valid comparison. How do you figure it isn't?


Max Prasac

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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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IMO energy is a big factor but you need to use common sense also. A FMJ 308 has a ton of ME but it doesn't transfer much of the energy because there is not expansion so it zips right through with most of it's energy going into the ground. A 45acp has much less energy but will most likely deliver all it's energy into the animal as it won't pass through. But now take a properly designed 308 bullet and see the terminal results.

I think the point of this thread is that a 32 or 380 is not a good self defense round. And while anyone with half a brain would prefer something much larger for self defense but carrying a 1911 is not always a viable option and I would prefer to carry a 32 or 380 (or even a 22) as opposed to carrying nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by reelman
IMO energy is a big factor but you need to use common sense also. A FMJ 308 has a ton of ME but it doesn't transfer much of the energy because there is not expansion so it zips right through with most of it's energy going into the ground. A 45acp has much less energy but will most likely deliver all it's energy into the animal as it won't pass through. But now take a properly designed 308 bullet and see the terminal results.

I think the point of this thread is that a 32 or 380 is not a good self defense round. And while anyone with half a brain would prefer something much larger for self defense but carrying a 1911 is not always a viable option and I would prefer to carry a 32 or 380 (or even a 22) as opposed to carrying nothing at all.


Again, muzzle energy is a meaningless figure that is calculated and not measured.


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Originally Posted by reelman
IMO energy is a big factor but you need to use common sense also. A FMJ 308 has a ton of ME but it doesn't transfer much of the energy because there is not expansion so it zips right through with most of it's energy going into the ground. A 45acp has much less energy but will most likely deliver all it's energy into the animal as it won't pass through. But now take a properly designed 308 bullet and see the terminal results.

I think the point of this thread is that a 32 or 380 is not a good self defense round. And while anyone with half a brain would prefer something much larger for self defense but carrying a 1911 is not always a viable option and I would prefer to carry a 32 or 380 (or even a 22) as opposed to carrying nothing at all.


There are 2 types of collisions "elastic" and "inelastic" a bullet strike is an "inelastic" collision most of the kinetic energy is transformed into thermal energy, some to sound, etc only a small untraceable amount of energy is transferred. Momentum is always transferred. The amount of frontal area of the bullet for the amount of "crushed tissue" the amount of hydraulic pressure (a function of velocity) and the amount of direct applied force are what creates the wound channel.


Kinetic energy is not measurable as this clearly illustrates


[Linked Image]




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Originally Posted by reelman
IMO energy is a big factor but you need to use common sense also. A FMJ 308 has a ton of ME but it doesn't transfer much of the energy because there is not expansion so it zips right through with most of it's energy going into the ground. A 45acp has much less energy but will most likely deliver all it's energy into the animal as it won't pass through. But now take a properly designed 308 bullet and see the terminal results.

I think the point of this thread is that a 32 or 380 is not a good self defense round. And while anyone with half a brain would prefer something much larger for self defense but carrying a 1911 is not always a viable option and I would prefer to carry a 32 or 380 (or even a 22) as opposed to carrying nothing at all.



It is for me and I see no reason that it would not be for anyone else if they wanted a viable weapon



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Quote
Again, muzzle energy is a meaningless figure that is calculated and not measured.


Exactly. Energy is a result of calculating bullet weight and muzzle velocity. It does not take into consideration the shape or construction of a bullet, nor the diameter or frontal area. A 440 grain WFNGC travelling @ 1,200 fps from a 500 JRH revolver will do significantly more damage than a 668 grain FMJ travelling @ 3,000 fps from a 50 BMG even though the latter has 10 times the energy.

Quote
Just can't imagine a guy not having a deer rifle.


I, too, have a deer rifle but it hasn't seen light in over 2 decades:
[Linked Image]
Lovin' the shortgun...

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Originally Posted by KevinGibson
The idea of the pocket guns (Mouse Guns) is an alternative to being unarmed. So with that in mind, let�s take a poll�

For all of those who would choose being unarmed to carrying a .32 or .380 ACP, please chime in.



I would rather rather not kid myself by caring 380 or 32, if I am allowed to have a pistol then I am going to have a REAL pistol period end of story



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Originally Posted by Notropis


We are discussing extreme situations and should not be. You can never cover all bases in all the extreme situations that are possible. There is also a big difference between going out looking to kill something and trying to get yourself out of a situation that has been unexpectedly thrust upon you.



The reason one carries a pistol is for extreme cases. Any confrontation that has a lethal potential is an extreme case and that is why we arm ourselves in the first place. Therefore a pistol that houses and shoots and adequate cartridge is the proper choice

Case closed



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Originally Posted by reelman


BULL! They may kill a deer or hog at close range but they are the bare minimum for deer sized game. Standard rule of thumb is 1000 ft/lbs for deer and neither of those comes close. People have killed deer with 22lr's but I wouldn't call them adequate for deer would you? It seems when it comes to hogs people pull out all kinds of odd stuff to shoot them with that they wouldn't consider to shoot a deer with and that aren't even legal to shoot a deer with in a lot of states.



If one thinks that it takes 1,000 foot pounds of kinetic energy to reliably kill deer then let us examine this number. Let's even pretend that we are talking about a 200 pound deer a rather large one. Then 200 divided into 1,000 means that is 5 FPE per pound of body weight. Now we are after an Alaskan Moose that can easily weight 2000 pounds or more but let us pretend that the moose weighs 1,500 pounds then using 5 FPE per pound of body weight means that 7,500 FPE is required. A 12,000 pound bull elephant would require 60,000 FPE. Now we are beginning to see the silliness of using FPE as a measure of lethality



Apparently these animals could not read such so called experts and did not know that they were not supposed to die with such a small amount of energy

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Only 1 shot was required for them to give up the ghost WOW who'ed a thunk it, if they read such silly assed so called experts that measure lethality with FPE



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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Notropis


We are discussing extreme situations and should not be. You can never cover all bases in all the extreme situations that are possible. There is also a big difference between going out looking to kill something and trying to get yourself out of a situation that has been unexpectedly thrust upon you.



The reason one carries a pistol is for extreme cases. Any confrontation that has a lethal potential is an extreme case and that is why we arm ourselves in the first place. Therefore a pistol that houses and shoots and adequate cartridge is the proper choice

Case closed


Case not closed.

I carry a variety of weapons based on what I am likely to encounter.

I have a 44 Mag with me on the farm all the time because of what I am likely to encounter in the woods. I load it differently during different seasons since I am less likely to run into snakes during the winter. I also usually have an AR in the Jeep and a Mini 30 and an 870 in the tractor because one firearm can not cover all bases and all extremes.

I have a 45 ACP in my truck because I do not have to worry about concealment on my body.

I slip a Bodyguard with laser in my pocket at night around the house when I am piddling around outside because there are quite a few rabid animals around.

I put a SS 357 snubby in my tackle box.

I generally carry the Bodyguard around town during the summer because NC has some strange carry laws and I want to be able to slip it in and out of my pocket easily. I wear a Colt Commander in a IWB holster during the winter. It does not hide very well with light cloths with my body shape.

All extreme cases are not equal. Some are more extreme than others. If you wanted to be protected against almost all extreme cases, then you would need high powered belt fed full automatics and several friend similarly armed. That would even fail you sometimes. A 45 will, indeed, take care of a few more extremes than will a 380. I like the extra firepower when it is convenient. The 380, however, will take care of enough situations to be worthwhile under a lot of conditions.

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The 380 is about as useless as a handgun gets I have shot them and they are to be used for fun anything more is a serious mistake they lack frontal area and penetration to be counted on in a lethal confrontation. Yep the case is closed pure and simple as that. If you can handle a serious pistol then there is no reason to carry a 380 as your primary weapon none what so ever

Open the thread "How effective Is The 380" and read DcRockets post very informative.




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Originally Posted by jwp475


The 380 is about as useless as a handgun gets I have shot them and they are to be used for fun anything more is a serious mistake they lack frontal area and penetration to be counted on in a lethal confrontation. Yep the case is closed pure and simple as that. If you can handle a serious pistol then there is no reason to carry a 380 as your primary weapon none what so ever

Open the thread "How effective Is The 380" and read DcRockets post very informative.



I started to write something but it would do no good. You are 100% correct. Now can we move on to something else?

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Originally Posted by jwp475


Anyone feel these calibers are adequate for 90 to 150 pound deer?


WAY too big for deer. Just right for elephant and cape buff, though. Give it a try and let us know how it works out.

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A New York state resident deer hunter could legally give that a try; can you believe it? Here's the implement description for handguns used for big game according to that bunch of geniuses: "HANDGUN- ANY CENTERFIRE PISTOL OR REVOLVER. BARREL LENGTH MAY NOT EXCEED 16 INCHES. NOTE: NONRESIDENTS MAY NOT USE HANDGUNS TO HUNT IN NEW YORK". So according to them I could use a 25 ACP, cause it's a centerfire. Back in 2011 I used a 9mm on my buck in a shotgun/handgun zone but that was just to finish him off after I knocked him down with my 870 12 ga. A couple 9mm's to the back of the head/neck area from about 6-8 inches away did the trick nicely. I didn't want to have to finish things with another 12 ga. sabot because 12 ga. sabots are about $2. per round and I'm a cheapskate. At that range the 9mm Luger cartridge worked pretty good and gave me a good story to recount. I did it for one of my late uncles and I was using the Luger handgun he brought home from Germany in 1945. Couple years before he passed away in 2001 we talked about doing something like that and I finally got to do it.

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