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Originally Posted by Ken Howell
No correlation? I'd expect an inverse correlation.


Nope. Pretty much no correlation, which is fine. It makes any "outcome based" attempt to infringe upon our rights a lie.

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I wouldn't believe any study done by a eastern liberal university. Just a bunch of democraps and over-educated bean heads.


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not a chance of the liberals even reading the study. anyone that defends or believes that killing millions of unborn humans a year are beyond hope.


the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
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Originally Posted by Mannlicher
pretty amazing study, seeing that it comes out of ultra left wing Harvard.
Still, the information will zero cred with the liberals. You don't get anywhere when you start confusing those idiots with facts and logic.


The Harvard study wasn't financed by Bloomberg, therefore it did not have to have a predetermined outcome. The other "research" on "gun violence" and "gun policy" at other big name institutions is largely, if not solely, funded by Bloomberg for his agenda.


Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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You will never stop this kind of non sense.

The 16-year-old Bronx teen accused of firing eight shots at a 20-year-old man at Bryant Park's ice rink over the weekend, wounding him and a 14-year-old bystander, allegedly opened fire because the older man wouldn't hand over his expensive jacket, law enforcement sources said.

The 20-year-old victim, identified as Javier Contreras, was taken to the hospital with a gunshot wound to his arm and is expected to be OK. The younger boy, Adonis Mera, was a bystander who was ice skating at the time of the shooting, according to police and his family. He was shot in the back and his family fears he may be paralyzed below the waist.

Mera's family told NBC 4 New York outside Bellevue Hospital Monday night that all things considered, Adonis was "doing OK."

The suspect, Corey Dunton, allegedly fired shots in the busy midtown park late Saturday after trying to take the 20-year-old man's $600 Marmot Mammoth parka, commonly called a "Biggie."

When the man, who Police Comissioner Ray Kelly said did not appear to know the suspect, wouldn't give up the jacket, the Bronx teen then allegedly left, returned with a gun half an hour later and started shooting.


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"For example, when the study shows numbers for Eastern European gun ownership and corresponding murder rates, it is readily apparent that less guns to do not mean less death. In Russia, where the rate of gun ownership is 4,000 per 100,000 inhabitants, the murder rate was 20.52 per 100,000 in 2002. That same year in Finland, where the rater of gun ownership is exceedingly higher--39,000 per 100,000--the murder rate was almost nill, at 1.98 per 100,000.

Looking at Western Europe, the study shows that Norway "has far and away Western Europe's highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate."

That's because Eastern Europe is a [bleep] hole and Finland and Norway are nicer places to live. Nothing to do with gun ownership at all. Totally unrelated.

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Anti gun people will not accept the fact that in places where crime and murder rates are higher than normal is because society and civility has fallen off the rails. It has nothing to do with the selection and availablity of killing tools or weaponry. They ignore this and implement restrictions on those tools rather then try to change the fundamental reasons why they are being used. They are blind to the real problem thus are a part and parcel of why we have this problem.


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Some people here raise good points, but what little is cited from the study isn't enough by itself to pass judgment on what was written by the Harvard author. It might be useful to support your position if you are already decided, but to somebody coming new to the argument there isn't enough quoted to judge the study. The final part of the quote discusses onus, not facts. That sounds like more a philosophical debate than a scientific debate. The guns versus crime question depends on many more inputs than are mentioned above. Pure numbers won't answer the question one way or the other, IMO.

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Guns are here to stay and so are studies about guns.

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We should all know by now that gun control has zero to do with crime control. It's all about people control. After all, government would be in peril were in unable to control those it rules. Law is the primary vehicle that all governments use to control those that they rule. That's why governments try so hard to legitimize their laws regardless of how illegitimate they are, Obamacare coming to mind.

Long ago we ceased being governed. We are ruled.


�If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.�
***US President James Madison***
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Better off to spend time locking up drug dealers, and you could cut the murder rate by gun at least 50%. But that would mean that Obama would need to cleanup his own backyard in Chicago.


It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.
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Well, well! Who'd a'thunk it? The eggheads and libs can't find their evidence when court's in session! HAH! As though they EVER could???

Since man first walked on the face of the earth, he's been engaged between a struggle between his heart and his head - the emotions vs. the intellect. Not only that, we keep forgetting when to THINK, and when to FEEL. We wouldn't be whole without our emotions, but so often we apply them ineptly when our facility of reason would serve us SO much better!

Our society has become so sharply divided now, between the advocates of Big Brother and those who value Freedom, and between the libertines and those who advocate responsibility, that it's no surprise that we've collectively become a violent society - BUT - it aint' over yet. It very realistically COULD get much worse!

I'm 65, which is a far cry from being as old as Methusela, but I still remember a different time, and a different set of people who were, collectively at least, possessed of more feeling for duty and responsibility to our fellow man than can be seen most anywhere in the USA today. Yes, there ARE those still among us with good, solid core values, but there are many, many - and the number seems to be increasing - who just want to live it up on Big Brother's teats at the expense of those few who are left who actually produce something.

Our "servants" (masters?) in gov't keep penalizing those who produce something, and rewarding those who consume without adding a single tiny thing to the system, that it simply CANNOT last that much longer. The Founders warned us of this, but are we listening??? Not many! Many expect a big republican win and a "throw the bums out" attitude, but I'm very skeptical that this will happen. We who've grown up with parents who taught us how things work in the real world are fewer and fewer in number, and weaker and weaker at the polls. This can ONLY lead to one thing, and it ain't good.

Mark Twain said some 140 odd years ago that we should "Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers." I think he had a very strong point, but one that few listen to or even WANT to understand now.

So ..... all that's left to those of us with faith, principles, knowledge and know-how is to just ride this boat on out, until it inevitably goes over the falls. They say the fall is really fun, but that sudden stop at the bottom isn't quite so. But it's what always happens in that situtation, and gravity, like any inevitability, won't be denied for long.

As Pogo said so long ago now, "We is met the enemy an' he is US!" Studies like this just prove how bad it really is, and leave little doubt about the direction we're headed in.

Those with Faith will come out well, no matter what, and those without will end up differently. It's always been that way, and there is no evidence of an escape from that age-old principle. Like gravity, and the other laws of the universe, it'll be the final determinant, no matter what we say, think, do or feel. It's that final difference that we can count on, though, and the only solace we'll ever have.

That's my take on all this anyway, so I guess this is where the naysayers and libertines get their say.

Last edited by Blackwater; 10/08/14.
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