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The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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I've also got a stiller and they are nice. It is the most accurate gun I own.

Last edited by jlboykin; 11/30/13.
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why cant the vanguard bolt be fluted?

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Originally Posted by George_in_SD
.....but in that degree it's a ghoatfuck....

I never seen a dumbass makin' his livin' copyin' a savage (hint)


Originally Posted by George_in_SD
Go Remington, and thank me later.



I see someone's been reading the Bigstick chronicles.....



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Vanguard bolts can be fluted. Remington bolts are a bit larger in diameter so the Vanguard bolts just can't be fluted as deep.

You can use either action and you will be quite happy with the build. The Vanguard actions are close to being perfect in dimensions as is and won't need truing.

I build probably 20 to 1 Remington actions over anything else and have never had a complaint about accuracy. The one exception was a 338-378 on a Mark V action that wouldn't shoot for beans. The problem went away with the change to a different brand of barrel.

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I'm 66 years old. With that caveat, I'd go with a custom receiver to begin with. But I'm not worried about parts availability fifty years in the future. Add to that, the strange metric barrel threads in the Howas, the trigger/safety problems in the Remingtons, and the sheet metal magazine lips in the Savages.

If you want a true custom rifle, you better start out with a custom receiver, which is the heart of the rifle. Just be sure that you choose which receiver, very carefully. There are questions surrounding some of the cast ones.

I have had one Howa, a Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe, and have had several Rem 700's, from a 300 Sav. up to a left hand 338 RUM. The Remington publicity about three rings of steel is pure bunk, IMHO. The flimsy one right next to the case head, is actually soft steel.

I watched an old G.S. Oxy Acetylene gas weld a new one onto a Remington Bolt head, after checking with the Factory. They can't put hard, (brittle) steel next to the brass case head, in case something goes terribly wrong. Like what just did happen to that particular rifle. It has to be able to peel back rather than turn into shrapnel. Just look at a Rem. bolt head to observe this.

Putting in the correct (of the three?) Sako hook extractors helps, but a custom action will already be there, using American barrel threads, for the sake of the smaller shops.

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Every once in a while, I see information on the Campfire which s just plain wrong. This would fit into that category. While I think the use of a custom action (generally derived from the 700 design)is a fine idea the rest of the post is on the verge of fantasy
The statement that the ring of steel next to the case head is soft steel would lead one to believe Remington just made this portion of the bolt from mild steel; this is not the case. The bolt head is 4140 and the nose is part of the head. The Remington bolt is meant to expand in the event of a catastrophic case failure and seal the gases (mostly) within the barrel when it contacts the counterbore. It does this. Some gase will escape back through the firing pin hole and this gas is vented imto the left raceway (this is a design flaw IMO). Cutting into the bolt nose to install a Sako extractor does allow gas to excape via this slot. More than this, the extractor can also be blown out of the receiver and become a deadly projectile. Having said this, I have two Remingtons on which I have installed Sako extractors and I still use them but I can't deny that they are not the ideal. GD

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I have done a Vanguard build and I will never do another. The lack of stock options is a royal pain. If you want any work done on the action, good luck!. There are very few smiths who are set up to do machine work on the action. I know someone will flame me on this call, but if you don't believe me, call your favorite smith and ask him to true a Vanguard action.

The Vanguard action is a good action, it just lacks after market options.

Having wasted $ on some of my bright ideas, I am now an advocate of using custom actions; Pierce, Stiller, Borden, ect.

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So does a new bolt say from pacific tool and gauge that has the sako or m16 extractor have these same issues or is it just altering the 700 bolt that causes this?

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Originally Posted by robes
So does a new bolt say from pacific tool and gauge that has the sako or m16 extractor have these same issues or is it just altering the 700 bolt that causes this?


I can only speak to my experience with my 30-06 and PTG bolt with M16 mini extractor, but I haven't had any safety issues with the extractor or gas leaks.

I hand load to what I consider "safe" levels. I am pretty comfortable exceeding max book loads with IMR4350, as I've never seen pressure problems with IMR4350 and the 30-06. With Ramshot Hunter, Ramshot Big Game, H4350, and H4895 I am more cautious, mostly because I have less experience loading for the 30-06 with those powders. However, I am still comfortable loading to max book loads with those powders if I see accuracy improve.

I wonder what circumstances would create problems with the M16 mini extractor--70,000 PSI? I donno, but it would be a good experiment if one had a disposable properly configured rifle and pressure testing equipment.

I will say the M16 mini extractor does not eject cases as "positively" as the Rem extractor. My original Rem extractor would throw cases several feet, the M16 extractor drops them right next to me. That's the only difference I have personally seen.

If anyone has first hand knowledge of M16 mini extractor failure, I'd be happy to hear it.

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I built a 257 Wby on a Vanguard/Howa action and couldn't be happier. It's been trouble free and is VERY accurate. Would not hesitate to build on another.

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Grey Dog, The Remington Bolt I saw was peeled back, right at the nose. I'm only addressing the small ring ahead of the main bolt head. That old G.S. Oxy Acetylene welded on a thin bushing and then turned it down in his lathe. Of course the bolt is top grade steel, but it can't be case hardened. Rather it must stay machinable by HSS tooling.

Face it, its just Corp. advertising copy. There's not enough steel there to hold fast, if a case head goes. That bolt was saved and so was the rifle. But it was a nasty looking blow out, all the same.

Today, I'm sure that old G.S., if he were still around, would demand his customer put in a replacement PT&G bolt,or send the barreled action back to the factory, for repair. Too many lawyers running around. I only saw the bolt, not the barrel, so maybe he had to set that back too. I have no idea if the action's lug abutments had any set back, either. Only that he told me he had saved that rifle.

I still own and shoot Rem Model 700's., although I will always question their "Three Rings of Steel" ad copy. A Sako ext. may provide more gas release away from the bolt nose, but that's only a guess. In any case, that damaged 700 was a child of the early Eighties at the latest. But I bet its still going strong, somewhere.

The true custom receivers are still the best bet. The reason they are so darn expensive is reasonable enough. Their steels are so tough, that their manufacturer has to use very expensive Carboloy tooling to machine them. That's what runs their costs up so fast.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. For all I know, that blow out might have been caused by a soft case head. I just know what I did observe, and what my old friend, now long deceased, told me, had happened. Also how he had repaired that one damaged bolt head.

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Indybuster, if you question Remington's rings of steel, send me your email address and I will send you pictures of a 700 action that had 10g over max charge of the wrong powder. The 3 rings of steel do infact work and work very well. What weakens the 3 rings of steel is when an owner installs a sako extractor.

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Indybuster,
That thin ring is an integral piece of the bolt head and is of the same chromoly steel. This is not hard but it is tough. It is designed to expand and seal the counterbore and it usually does this very well.
Occasionally the nose of the bolt would fail simply because, in magnum calibers, it is very thin. In a case failure situation, the bolt head might fracture because there was too much clearance between the bolt nose and the counterbore and if the bolt nose was too hard. This sometimes happens because of the thinness of that portion of the bolt head.
There is no question that the use of a Sako extractor compromises the system. This can be compensated for by fitting the barrel with a tighter-fitting counterbore but even then, the Sako extractor can be blown out of the port. Sako blocks this with what many refer to as the "guide rib" but which is, in reality, a block to contain the extractor in the receiver ring in the event of a case failure.
The Howa extractor is a bit better just because it is longer and is pinned in place.
Most of those custom receivers are either made of stainless, in which case they are very soft, or they are made of steel much the same as the Remington in which case they are about the same hardness as the Remington. The exceptions are some actions from overseas (Barnard, RPA) which are quite hard.
The last bolt I made used a Sako extractor and I can live with it but the next one will incorporate a block, like the Sako or the Savage, just for the added safety. GD

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Originally Posted by INDYBUSTER
That old G.S. Oxy Acetylene welded on a thin bushing and then turned it down in his lathe.


Welded ????

Probably silver soldered the ring with his O/A torch unless he was a bloomin' idiot

Denny.


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Keith, the one I described, failed. The G.S. then called Remington, to see how to proceed. He was a retired Tool and Die maker, who worked for Western Cartridge, all during WWII. Remington gave him a go ahead to weld on a thin bushing, which he then did. Like I said, I didn't see the remains of the cartridge head, or any pull downs, so I don't know what that customer did wrong.

What I did see, was that the bolt stayed put, and only the thin nose of it peeled away. This is only anecdotal, but it raises a red flag. I've never put a hook extractor into one of my 700's, so I can't comment on that mod.

Suffice to say, I do my load experimenting with Mauser M-98's which have a third lug under the root of the bolt handle. I have seen one Mauser bolt with both of its front lugs sheared off. Our American commercial rifles don't have any such third lugs, as far as I know. I think we can agree on that all these blowups are unnecessary, excepting for one getting some soft case heads by accident.

My e-mail will come to you in a P.M.

Last edited by INDYBUSTER; 12/02/13.
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284, I wasn't looking over his shoulder, and all he told me was that he welded the small nose tip back onto the bolt. This old boy wasn't any fool, either. He had several bottles of heat tabs to monitor the heat in the steel he was working. Like I mentioned in my earlier reply, he was a retired Western Cartridge Tool and Die man.

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Weld ??? Suspect your/his terminology is off the mark. Common mistake for the uninitiated. Friend builds BR guns with 30 world records and have watched him fit bolts to action a few times.

Denny.


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One could do alot worse than picking a Vanguard S2 in caliber of choice and bolting on a McMillan....

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