Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Pointing Labs: what ever happened to them?

Fact a true lab unaltered out of the womb Does Not possess a natural instinct or ability to point.

Yes I can read. What because you post one thing that makes it true and factual? The breeds used to develop a breed doesn't mean that particular trait from one particular breed was or is the desired trait they used that breed to achieve.

I can't read. I never said that you can't teach a dog to do something. Teaching is a learned behavior. So yes you can teach something to them.

I a done with this conversation, as you are clearly trying to justify the breeding of pointing labs. That is your right and honestly it doesn't effect me one bit. As far as I am concerned there is not one good reason to own or want to own a pointing lab. Have fun in OZ.

Neither it is a retriever. But they do flush and some do point. Its primary trait hence the name is to retrieve.

And that would be where you're wrong.

All dogs possess that ability to a degree. Ever see a coyote, or a fox point?
I have, and I seriously doubt it was trained.
But, maybe someone is cross breeding pointers into then at the old Kellog kennel!!
You bastards!!!!
The staunchness and "quality" of point is bred.



True...but the genes will still show up.



Justify? Not sure what you mean by that. This is America...
and if a guy wants a purple lab that does the hokey pokey when it finds game, he has every right...I guess.
American dog breeding practices are what they are. It is the buyer's responsibility to do his research before purchase.


Don't get too hung up on names either. My GUESS (not a fact), is the AKC tacked the "retriever" on at some point. Doesn't mean a damn thing.
Just like they did (FACT) with the GSPointer and the GWPointer.
They like their labels...

So I guess your point is that any breed that was used in the development of another should be included in the standard by which labs (or any other breed) is judged. May as well not have a standard of any kind if that is the case. Pointing labs are different enough from a traditional flushing retriever that breeding them together creates a dog that isn't any good at either job. If there were a separate registry for pointing labs, both breeds would benefit. If this were the case, I would be all for the pointing lab. As it sits, I think their existence is a huge negative for the breed. As to your research, you look at breed origin and then completely forget about individual kennels contributions to breed characteristics. Kellogg kennels bred for specific traits for a long period of time and registered some questionable dogs, this is also fact.

What a crock. You've done this? You know this how?

If you took two high prey drive, bird crazy labs, from good breeding, one from flushing lines, and one from pointing lines...Both excellent performers...
You are more than likely going to end up with an excellent hunting dog. And, my GUESS would be probably a flusher.

Here's the AKC breed standard... Where do you read anything about flushing or pointing?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm

And, here again...right on the AKC's breed discription page...
After being crossed with Setters, Spaniels and other Retrievers, the Labrador Retriever honed its skills as a true retriever...
http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/index.cfm

Guess what setters do...They POINT!!!


Kellog may have practiced questionable breeding practices...I can't say that as a fact.
Do you have references to back that up, or just hearsay?
Why single them out? There are hundreds of others who have bred at will with whatever dog available and still registered them with the AKC.
That's exactly why the Lab suffers from so many health problems...
Irresponsible breeding.
But, like I wrote before...buyer beware. It's the buyers responsibility to do his homework.

I really don't understand where the strong opinions come from when the PL is brought up.
If a guy truely wants a strong flushing Lab, is it really that hard to research a breeding to make sure you're getting what you want?
What about the breeders who are just breeding bomb/drug/seeing eye/ rehab labs?
Are they doing the breed an injustice too?
I think not.

Yes?

I wonder why your GUESS would be a flusher??????? Maybe because that is the natural and dominant trait! Ok now I am really done on this topic because your own wild azz guess SOLD me on my original thought. Thanks for sealing the deal for me.

Your original thought was to hump someone's leg by proclaiming
"spot on" without a shred of research or fact.
Yes, I would say the flushing trait is dominate.
Does that mean you win or something?
And, the fact that my GUESS "sealed your deal" speaks volumes as to how you came to your original conclusion.
Purely formed from someone else's guess without references or credibility.

But...yep, spot on.

It's rumored that Pres. Obama is considering an Executive Order banning the sale, ownership, and breeding of so-called Pointing Labrador Retrievers.

Press Secretary Jay Carney cites the President's concerns over the fact that certain high-income people are paying top dollar for dogs with pointing traits, further deepening the Income Inequality perception among Americans. He is also concerned that conservative Republicans are using these dogs to unfair advantage in the field, depriving the general population of their fair share of birds..........

Bighorn - Great!

I was out of this while ago for the same reason as Montana, but I love Bighorn's comment so I had to chime in.

By the way I have had my new PL pup for a month now and he is doing great. Looks like he may be as good as my older one.

If I only develop him for water, like the original St. Johns dog, I am sure that he would be seen only as an outstanding lab and no one would ever know that his genes were bastardized in the 1800's to go upland.

No offense, but I've seen collies point, schnauzers point, german shephards point, and Labrador retrievers point. It's a natural response of a predator prior to pouncing on their prey. Labs point just as much as any other non-pointing breed.

It's a fault when a flushing dog hesitates at the flush. I had an Irish Setter when I was a kid that was a pretty good coon dog. Doesn't mean that I'd like to see Setters bred to be coonhounds. Aggressive flushing is a trait to be bred for in labs, in a pointing breed, not so much. Therein lies the problem with registering "pointing" labs with the real deal.

Have you ever hunted behind a pointing lab? The vast majority of dogs from strong pointing breeds would be flushing dogs if the pointing instinct wasn't reinforced through training. This is a silly thread, it's ok to reinforce "aggressive flushing" in a retriever, but not pointing. Silly.

So are you trying to say that you teach a dog to be a strong flusher? If so, you have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. A dog has it or they don't, of course you can reinforce it, but if it isn't there to begin with, you can't make it happen. Breeding labs to be hesitant flushers "pointers" will/has created entire lines of dogs that aren't aggressive flushers. Separate "pointing" labs into their own registry and the problem goes away.

If one cannot breed for hesitancy to flush, then the entire concept of a "pointing" lab is a hoax and everyone who owns one has been taken to the cleaners. Personally, I don't think this is the case. "Pointing" labs are lines of dogs that have been bred to be weak flushers. A good pointing pup will point as a 6 week old pup. Are you saying that an aggressive field bred lab (real lab - not a pointing lab) will also point? Silly!

No problem, you obviously are very experienced with flushing dogs. I just don't think you understand pointing dogs very well. I do see your point. No pun intended.

Sooooo, the flushing breeders aren't smart enough to keep the pointing dogs out of their breeding program?
Sounds like it to me.
If the flush is the supposedly the strongest trait, then why do pointing labs even exist? If a (theoretical) handful of pointing lab breeders seem to be mucking up the gene pool for flushing dog breeders, why doesn't it work in the opposite?
Because it's simply not true and just another one of your opinions that you've thrown out here because for some reason, you have an unnatural hard on for this breed. Weird really.
I'd be willing to BET (see, I can differentiate fact from opinion), that there are WAAAAY more AKC show labs bred than pointing labs in a given year.
THAT is where your breed will be ruined. That, and back yard breeders.


This is BS and again...your OPINION, that you like to parade around as fact.
Do you even know what a point looks like? If your flushers are flushing weak, you need to do a better job of researching your breeding/litters.
Not blaming the drug dog industry, or the seeing eye dogs, or the therapy dogs, or the show ring,...or the pointing labs!
Why on earth would any flushing dog breeder use a lab out of pointing stock?

I had a Lab that naturally pointed quail but flushed pheasants and he was not out of pointing Lab stock. He didn't start the quail pointing thing until he was seven years old.

Labs are flushing dogs, why would anyone want to 'soften' their flush by trying to breed/train in pointing instinct. It has always made as much sense to me as trying to turn a Springer or Cocker into a pointing dog. If someone wants a Pointer they should get a Pointer.

You'll have to ask the original designers why they bred in setter and pointer, but they're dead. Why would anyone want to soften a point?

Ithere is indeed SOME speculation of some introduces breeds including Chessie however no mention of setter/pointer outcross in the original stud books. Labs have always been considered flushing dogs, and were developed as such. The "point' or soft flush is evident in some strains of spaniels as well, but we as breeders have done our best to breed away from this unwanted characteristic. To answer your original question I wouldn't that's why I breed and train flushing/retrieving dogs, and that is why my dogs must prove up in the field before I will consider than for breeding. If a tendency for a soft flush or point crops up that dog would be altered and removed from the future gene pool. I'm sure a knowledgeable spaniel breeder could with time develop a strain of "Pointing" Springers but why the hell would they want to. It makes no sense to take anything that excels in its 'craft' and make it a mediocre player in another field.