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About 10 years ago (maybe more), various American gun dog forums were all a buzz about Pointing Labs for hunting birds close in..

The detractors ridiculed the idea, while their supporters hailed them as the best thing on 4 legs.. I remember their as a Pointing Lab association, some organised field trials, even specialist breeders offering pups at fantastic prices..

I'vde not seen much mention of them lately? Did the ideas just die the death or are people still using/promoting them?

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That made as much sense as putting ears on GSP, like their gonna come when you call them. smile


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I hunted over a few "pointing" Labs, they no more pointed than my "regular" Lab.


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Still a lot of proponents of pointing labs around�..
success stories�not so much.


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Hmm, I've got a dog that works very close, points like my index finger, retrieves like a lab, and swims like a fish. Her name is Lucy and she is a weimaraner. Labs aren't bred to point. Hell, they weren't even originally bred to upland hunt!


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Of course, neither was the weimaraner. smile


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Oh, I think they are still quite popular with certain folks.

Look at the back of the Pheasants Forever mag, PL's are about the only big splashy ads in there. I've hunted behind a few which were supposed to be PLs and only one actually pointed anything.

I think the bloom is off the rose.
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You guys are funny.

I have one. Great dogs. Points, listens, retrieves and I have NEVER lost him.

I have had Setters and will have one again, but with a growing family, limited time, and having to jump on an opportunity to hunt upland and water at any given moment my pointing lab was just the ticket. And it was too much for me to go to a flusher.

Mine is from Black Forest and I would say that the PL kennels are doing well. The PL version has probably just leveled off from the intial hype, that all.




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I also have a PL, who is still a pup, but has begun to point birds. She will flush runners, but is beginning to point pheasants, chukar, etc. in cover that are sitting.

What is more important, to me, than her developing ability to point, is her craziness about game birds, and being able to find them. There is simply no quit in this dog, and she is a little over a year old. With age, she will do nothing but improve, and I am giving her every opportunity possible to hunt birds.

My last Lab was a PL from Black Forest, when Dellery Guillory still owned it. She was a pup from the great Gumbo, and a better hunting dog would be very hard to find.

There is no 'pointing gene' in these dogs- they are simply descendants of dogs who have shown a strong tendency to point, and continue to be bred to further that tendency. Not all 'pointing labs' point, and some regular labs develop that tendency on their own.

There is something very satisfying to see your dog lock up on point, let you walk up, and flush the bird at shoelace range!


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Two of the last three Labs I've owned would usually hunt close enough and point well enough to give the hunter time to get in position to shoot. They weren't always classic, "steady to wing and shot points" and if the bird or covey was antsy they would sometimes flush them but you almost always knew there was something there beforehand and were close enough for a skeet or IC choke shot.

I bought these Labs as pups from good hunting bloodlines but they weren't sold as Pointing Labs. They were also good waterfowl dogs. I got them started on "pointing" their first year with a 50 foot lead, mild use of an E-Collar, planted pigeons, dog biscuit rewards and someone else to shoot. Initially they would slow down, showing interest when they were close to birds and gradually they started to point.

IMO a lot of dogs can handle more than one style of hunting. A guy I used to hunt with years ago had a GSP that was the best all purpose dog, including waterfowl as you could want and when he pointed he was always "steady to wing and shot".

My dogs aren't going to win any field trials but they can find game, hold it and bring it back more consistently then most hunters, me included, can shoot.

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My dog is from Black Forest Grits and just turned 10.

I am trying to decide if I should get another pup right now. Like I said I want to get back to Setters, but the lab breed is hard to give up when the family is concerned. I may do one more PL.

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I used to think I'd try another breed but always ended up with Labs. and never regretted it. Got to go with what I think I know.

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Originally Posted by cazman
My dog is from Black Forest Grits and just turned 10.

I am trying to decide if I should get another pup right now. Like I said I want to get back to Setters, but the lab breed is hard to give up when the family is concerned. I may do one more PL.


Got my pup from a breeder here in CO- sire is a dog named Otter, who was a 4X Grand Master Champion PL. PM if you are interested in more detail.


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Originally Posted by selmer
Of course, neither was the weimaraner. smile


Boy an I glad you added that! smile


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I've actually decided on a pup from Hunters Point, IA. Some of the same lines as my older dog. Should be here is a month.

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I recently read an article that included genetic information which lead to the conclusion that pointing labs and all of the odd color variations were the result of breeding non labs to labs beyond the point of breed development. The Kellogg kennel in SD was traced back to the origin of the pointing trend having bred pointing breeds into labs and registering them as labs. Buy a pointer if you want a pointer, labs are flusher/retrievers. It's very shortsighted to breed away from the breed standard. These standards exist to maintain the integrity of the breed. Look at golden retrievers, irish setters, and many others that have been bred into obscurity by those that didn't care at all for maintaining the innate abilities of the breed. It's no different than breeding hounds into a lab line and making them lion dogs.

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interesting, do you have a link to the article?

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Everyone I know who hunts pheasants around here with Labs either has or wants a "pointing" Lab. They are a great, useful all-around upland dog, whether they point solid or just delay their flush.

When it comes to putting meat in the bag, a well-trained PL is hard to beat.

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Lab Genetics Article

Centers around the "silver labs", but touches on the concept of the pointing lab as it relates to the breeding of Weims into Lab lines by Kellogg.

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The big deal in my area is labradoodles. Lots of people trying to sell pups for lotsa money. I don't get it.

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I think labradoodles are great! The distinction is that nobody is trying to register them as labs. Not so with the designer colors and "pointing" labs.

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Here in Colorado seems to be the center of a lot of PL activity.
Been around a few, seen a few run hunt tests. If you primarily hunt upland they can do work. But the multiple grand master PL titled dogs struggle with master level hunt test work. They are over priced IMO. $1,500 for a grand master titled dog breeding. That struggled to earn a AKC Master title is ridiculous. You can get a Field Champion breeding for less than that.

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Originally Posted by ranger1
Lab Genetics Article

Centers around the "silver labs", but touches on the concept of the pointing lab as it relates to the breeding of Weims into Lab lines by Kellogg.


That is an interesting article and makes a case for the introduction of the Weims to get Silver. But even the author is only speculating that crossing is what happened to the PL. The PL looks exactly like any other lab and does not have the dd gene of the Silvers. Maybe someday they will find a PL gene that seperates the PL, but until then (and after having one for 10 years and hunting with many non-PLs)I think that they are just breeding for the tendancy. I think that it is no different than breeding for a long ranging pointer, for instance. Eventually, a good breeder is going to be known for having only pointers that are well suited to hunting from horseback.

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What would you do if you were a serious GSP owner and you got a pup that wouldn't point? What if there were a group of breeders that were breeding GSP's for running rabbits and registering them as GSP's? Do you think that would be good for the breed? The answer, of course, is that breeding away from breed standards is a great way to destroy a breed. This is exactly what PL breeders are doing. If they had to be separately registered, I couldn't see a single thing wrong with it.

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But they do meet the standard in every way. They just do something extra. Would we being destroying the GSP breed if we selected GSPs that also retrieved consistantly?

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"The Labrador when on game, either by air or ground scent, will become more excited or animated. As it nears game it may drop its head somewhat to better find or locate the bird, but will continue to move forward. Most Labradors will naturally flush in a bold to moderate manner, their desire to find and retrieve continuously driving them toward the bird in an attempt to either catch or flush to wing. Anything less would be unacceptable and should be scored accordingly, as the Spaniel Hunting test is intended to demonstrate the traits and values of a flushing dog." (AKC Hunt Test standards for Labrador Retrievers)

Labs are flushing dogs and breeding them to "point" is a deviation from the standard. The problem comes in when both "pointing" labs and real labs are registered in the same registry. This creates a polluted gene pool, wherein the true labs may eventually end up with characteristics that are not desirable to a traditional lab owner. No problem at all if they are registered separately. Retrieving is a generally accepted trait in the GSP breed, just happens that it is often not a terribly strong characteristic. Nobody would ever say that they are unhappy with their GSP because it retrieves well, not so with a lab that points.

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Ranger1 gets it.

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I bought a 'pointing' lab out of the kellogg line back in the late 90's. Absolutely the dumbest lab I every owned or was associated with. His outstanding traits were marking vehicle tires and getting bit by rattlesnakes. I also owned a GSP that hunted close as a brittany and would return immediately to a whistle. I mourn the loss of Danny the GSP to this day. He passed way too soon.

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I don't think that this discussion is going anywhere. I did like the article about the Silvers, but like I said I do not think that the PL is in the same category.

Ranger1 you are quoting a Test Standard. So every lab that cannot meet this should not be a lab? The bench crowd might differ.

Here is the Breed Standard - http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm

PLs qualify, Silvers do not.

Also, ever meet a PL that never had it's pointing instinct developed in training. I have and its called a flusher.

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Never seen a good pointing dog that needed its pointing instinct "developed". They either point or they don't, the training takes place from there. The Hunt Test standard is a pretty good measure of what a lab is supposed to be able to do. Breeding them to run lions would be no less of a deviation than is breeding them to point and then registering them with the dogs that do the traditional lab job of a flushing retriever. The bench crowd is what ruined the Irish Setter by breeding them without regard for their ability to be pointing dogs, much the same as the backyard breeder has destroyed most lines of Golden Retrievers.

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I certainly see the appeal of a dog that is a lab in every other way- I don't begrudge the PL lab guys that- but Ranger1 is absolutely correct- even if he is only looking at half the coin. It would have been in the PL lab guys best interest to found there own registry years ago, and deny dual registered dogs eventually, and only allow entry by AKC registered labs after attaining a certain level of pointing lab title. they already have there own breed standard with there own hunt test. by excluding AKC dogs that haven't reached GMPR they keep there own gene pool tight as well.


finding a good yellow stud that isn't an EIC carrier, doesn't have any Lean Mac, and doesn't have any titled pointers in his pedigree isn't so easy anymore. Really want to get a litter off FC/AFC Fat city Pacer- even though he's black- or another one of Rebel With a Cause better sons.



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Originally Posted by ingwe
Still a lot of proponents of pointing labs around�..
success stories�not so much.


Actually, there are a ton of labs which have a tendency to point and only need some encouragement to become solid pointers.

My only yellow dog was that way. I told about it to one of my dad's friends who spent a lifetime field trialing english pointers. He vociferously proclaimed that there was "no such thing" as a pointing lab.
I invited him to hunt over Peet, and at the end of the mornings hunt he allowed that there was at least one pointing lab...



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Originally Posted by ingwe
Still a lot of proponents of pointing labs around�..
success stories�not so much.


Here is a pic of my 13 MO pointing lab Dolly and a rooster she pointed beautifully on our hunt yesterday. Kinda nice to walk up on a point, kick up a bird, and whack it with a 28 ga.
[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Backroads
Ranger1 gets it.


Agreed.


Biden's most truthful quote ever came during his first press conference, 03/25/21.
Drum roll please...... "I don't know, to be clear." and THAT is one promise he's kept!!!
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Originally Posted by ranger1
What if there were a group of breeders that were breeding GSP's for running rabbits and registering them as GSP's? Do you think that would be good for the breed? The answer, of course, is that breeding away from breed standards is a great way to destroy a breed.


This quote proves that he in fact does NOT get it. Or, at the very least is contradictory.
The GSP is simply an Americanized Deutsch Kurzhaar.
DK's are bred to be VERSATILE...including rabbits.
So, if the Americans are breeding away from this breed standard by trying to breed only bird dogs...are they destroying the breed?

In my opinion, they have created there own distinct breed, just like the difference between the DD and the GWP. This is in NO way a "knock" against GSP's or GWP's.
But, if you wanted to buy one or the other, AND your goal was to have a dog that would:
Hunt and point upland,
Retrieve land and water
Track rabbits,
Blood track
Be sharp on predators
Retrieve fur
And bay hogs...
Would your chances be better with an American version GSP/GWP or a DD/DK where it's parentage had to prove these traits?
I think the answer is obvious.
It's hard to say that without sounding like I'm talking down the GSP/GWP but I'm honestly not.
I'm just using it as an example that the above quote/example was WAAAY off base and in fact...he does not get it.

And, although I agree that breeding for ANY color, with color being solely the purpose,
Is irresponsible breeding, the supplied link reads like one man's opinion with very little reference.

The fact that some labs point while some don't is simple. Some carry and manifest the pointer genes introduced when the St. John's Water Dog (what became the Lab as we know it), started.
These are old articles that I can't find online, so I'll do my best with pics.

Written by Dr. Gerald L. Walker Ph. D., C.P.A.S.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Hopefully, this will shed some light on the real history of the Labrador and not just what the AKC tells you it should do.

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ranger1 has said all that really needs to be said. His post are spot on with this subject.


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At least you're not narrow minded. wink
Because he said it, or because AKC says it, doesn't change the facts of history.

I just re-read every post of his and it's all his opinion...not facts.

Quote
Retrieving is a generally accepted trait in the GSP breed, just happens that it is often not a terribly strong characteristic


Again...breeding away from breed standard.
A GSP that won't retrieve ain't much of a dog. Sorry.

The one and only thing I can see accurate in his posts is where he lays the blame for other breeds failures... The show ring. But, that blame falls squarely in the AKC's lap for not requiring breed specimens to be versed in both field and show.
The SAME AKC that he/people like to defend when it comes to standards.

So who dilutes the lab genes more? The (hypothetical) responsible PL breeders who are breeding on all factors involved, thus producing good looking, healthy, good natured hunting dogs?

Or, the AKC show breeders breeding for looks and health? And then we end up with these pigs we see at Westminster.

I really don't have a dog (pun) in this fight, I just hate seeing people spew their opinion as fact because..."I heard", or..."someone said".
I've done my research and know my history.


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It is a fact that a lab Does Not naturally possess the natural instinct or ability to point. That is something that is a learned behavior.

I don't own a lab so no dog in the fight either.

I am not defending the AKC.

Personally if one wants to own a pointing lab that is on them. It just doesn't make any sense to me, so I will pass.



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Not a fact!
Can you read? I posted their original breed make up!
How can a breed that originally used pointers and setters...
Quote
Not naturally possess the natural instinct or ability to point. That is something that is a learned behavior.


A learned behavior???
Yes. You can teach a dog to point.
But, you can tell the difference between learned and instinctual in less than a second.

Soooooo, pointing labs that only flush...
Is THAT a learned behavior? No.

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Is a Labrador Retriever a flushing dog or a pointing dog?

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Fact a true lab unaltered out of the womb Does Not possess a natural instinct or ability to point.

Yes I can read. What because you post one thing that makes it true and factual? The breeds used to develop a breed doesn't mean that particular trait from one particular breed was or is the desired trait they used that breed to achieve.

I can't read. I never said that you can't teach a dog to do something. Teaching is a learned behavior. So yes you can teach something to them.

I a done with this conversation, as you are clearly trying to justify the breeding of pointing labs. That is your right and honestly it doesn't effect me one bit. As far as I am concerned there is not one good reason to own or want to own a pointing lab. Have fun in OZ.


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Originally Posted by Backroads

Is a Labrador Retriever a flushing dog or a pointing dog?


Neither it is a retriever. But they do flush and some do point. Its primary trait hence the name is to retrieve.

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Quote
Fact a true lab unaltered out of the womb Does Not possess a natural instinct or ability to point.

And that would be where you're wrong.

All dogs possess that ability to a degree. Ever see a coyote, or a fox point?
I have, and I seriously doubt it was trained.
But, maybe someone is cross breeding pointers into then at the old Kellog kennel!!
You bastards!!!!
The staunchness and "quality" of point is bred.

Quote
The breeds used to develop a breed doesn't mean that particular trait from one particular breed was or is the desired trait they used that breed to achieve.


True...but the genes will still show up.

Quote
I a done with this conversation, as you are clearly trying to justify the breeding of pointing labs.


Justify? Not sure what you mean by that. This is America...
and if a guy wants a purple lab that does the hokey pokey when it finds game, he has every right...I guess.
American dog breeding practices are what they are. It is the buyer's responsibility to do his research before purchase.

Quote
Neither it is a retriever. But they do flush and some do point. Its primary trait hence the name is to retrieve.

Don't get too hung up on names either. My GUESS (not a fact), is the AKC tacked the "retriever" on at some point. Doesn't mean a damn thing.
Just like they did (FACT) with the GSPointer and the GWPointer.
They like their labels...

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So I guess your point is that any breed that was used in the development of another should be included in the standard by which labs (or any other breed) is judged. May as well not have a standard of any kind if that is the case. Pointing labs are different enough from a traditional flushing retriever that breeding them together creates a dog that isn't any good at either job. If there were a separate registry for pointing labs, both breeds would benefit. If this were the case, I would be all for the pointing lab. As it sits, I think their existence is a huge negative for the breed. As to your research, you look at breed origin and then completely forget about individual kennels contributions to breed characteristics. Kellogg kennels bred for specific traits for a long period of time and registered some questionable dogs, this is also fact.

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Pointing labs are different enough from a traditional flushing retriever that breeding them together creates a dog that isn't any good at either job

What a crock. You've done this? You know this how?

If you took two high prey drive, bird crazy labs, from good breeding, one from flushing lines, and one from pointing lines...Both excellent performers...
You are more than likely going to end up with an excellent hunting dog. And, my GUESS would be probably a flusher.

Here's the AKC breed standard... Where do you read anything about flushing or pointing?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm

And, here again...right on the AKC's breed discription page...
After being crossed with Setters, Spaniels and other Retrievers, the Labrador Retriever honed its skills as a true retriever...
http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/index.cfm

Guess what setters do...They POINT!!!

Quote
As to your research, you look at breed origin and then completely forget about individual kennels contributions to breed characteristics. Kellogg kennels bred for specific traits for a long period of time and registered some questionable dogs, this is also fact.

Kellog may have practiced questionable breeding practices...I can't say that as a fact.
Do you have references to back that up, or just hearsay?
Why single them out? There are hundreds of others who have bred at will with whatever dog available and still registered them with the AKC.
That's exactly why the Lab suffers from so many health problems...
Irresponsible breeding.
But, like I wrote before...buyer beware. It's the buyers responsibility to do his homework.

I really don't understand where the strong opinions come from when the PL is brought up.
If a guy truely wants a strong flushing Lab, is it really that hard to research a breeding to make sure you're getting what you want?
What about the breeders who are just breeding bomb/drug/seeing eye/ rehab labs?
Are they doing the breed an injustice too?
I think not.



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Yes?

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Originally Posted by Duckdog
[quote]If you took two high prey drive, bird crazy labs, from good breeding, one from flushing lines, and one from pointing lines...Both excellent performers...
You are more than likely going to end up with an excellent hunting dog. And, my GUESS would be probably a flusher.


I wonder why your GUESS would be a flusher??????? Maybe because that is the natural and dominant trait! Ok now I am really done on this topic because your own wild azz guess SOLD me on my original thought. Thanks for sealing the deal for me.


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Your original thought was to hump someone's leg by proclaiming
"spot on" without a shred of research or fact.
Yes, I would say the flushing trait is dominate.
Does that mean you win or something?
And, the fact that my GUESS "sealed your deal" speaks volumes as to how you came to your original conclusion.
Purely formed from someone else's guess without references or credibility.

But...yep, spot on.

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It's rumored that Pres. Obama is considering an Executive Order banning the sale, ownership, and breeding of so-called Pointing Labrador Retrievers.

Press Secretary Jay Carney cites the President's concerns over the fact that certain high-income people are paying top dollar for dogs with pointing traits, further deepening the Income Inequality perception among Americans. He is also concerned that conservative Republicans are using these dogs to unfair advantage in the field, depriving the general population of their fair share of birds..........


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Bighorn - Great!

I was out of this while ago for the same reason as Montana, but I love Bighorn's comment so I had to chime in.

By the way I have had my new PL pup for a month now and he is doing great. Looks like he may be as good as my older one.

If I only develop him for water, like the original St. Johns dog, I am sure that he would be seen only as an outstanding lab and no one would ever know that his genes were bastardized in the 1800's to go upland.

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Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
Fact a true lab unaltered out of the womb Does Not possess a natural instinct or ability to point.



No offense, but I've seen collies point, schnauzers point, german shephards point, and Labrador retrievers point. It's a natural response of a predator prior to pouncing on their prey. Labs point just as much as any other non-pointing breed.


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It's a fault when a flushing dog hesitates at the flush. I had an Irish Setter when I was a kid that was a pretty good coon dog. Doesn't mean that I'd like to see Setters bred to be coonhounds. Aggressive flushing is a trait to be bred for in labs, in a pointing breed, not so much. Therein lies the problem with registering "pointing" labs with the real deal.

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Have you ever hunted behind a pointing lab? The vast majority of dogs from strong pointing breeds would be flushing dogs if the pointing instinct wasn't reinforced through training. This is a silly thread, it's ok to reinforce "aggressive flushing" in a retriever, but not pointing. Silly.


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So are you trying to say that you teach a dog to be a strong flusher? If so, you have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. A dog has it or they don't, of course you can reinforce it, but if it isn't there to begin with, you can't make it happen. Breeding labs to be hesitant flushers "pointers" will/has created entire lines of dogs that aren't aggressive flushers. Separate "pointing" labs into their own registry and the problem goes away.

If one cannot breed for hesitancy to flush, then the entire concept of a "pointing" lab is a hoax and everyone who owns one has been taken to the cleaners. Personally, I don't think this is the case. "Pointing" labs are lines of dogs that have been bred to be weak flushers. A good pointing pup will point as a 6 week old pup. Are you saying that an aggressive field bred lab (real lab - not a pointing lab) will also point? Silly!

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No problem, you obviously are very experienced with flushing dogs. I just don't think you understand pointing dogs very well. I do see your point. No pun intended.
smile


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Sooooo, the flushing breeders aren't smart enough to keep the pointing dogs out of their breeding program?
Sounds like it to me.
If the flush is the supposedly the strongest trait, then why do pointing labs even exist? If a (theoretical) handful of pointing lab breeders seem to be mucking up the gene pool for flushing dog breeders, why doesn't it work in the opposite?
Because it's simply not true and just another one of your opinions that you've thrown out here because for some reason, you have an unnatural hard on for this breed. Weird really.
I'd be willing to BET (see, I can differentiate fact from opinion), that there are WAAAAY more AKC show labs bred than pointing labs in a given year.
THAT is where your breed will be ruined. That, and back yard breeders.

Originally Posted by ranger1
Pointing" labs are lines of dogs that have been bred to be weak flushers

This is BS and again...your OPINION, that you like to parade around as fact.
Do you even know what a point looks like? If your flushers are flushing weak, you need to do a better job of researching your breeding/litters.
Not blaming the drug dog industry, or the seeing eye dogs, or the therapy dogs, or the show ring,...or the pointing labs!
Why on earth would any flushing dog breeder use a lab out of pointing stock?

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I had a Lab that naturally pointed quail but flushed pheasants and he was not out of pointing Lab stock. He didn't start the quail pointing thing until he was seven years old.


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Labs are flushing dogs, why would anyone want to 'soften' their flush by trying to breed/train in pointing instinct. It has always made as much sense to me as trying to turn a Springer or Cocker into a pointing dog. If someone wants a Pointer they should get a Pointer.


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Originally Posted by FoxtonGundogs
why would anyone want to 'soften' their flush by trying to breed/train in pointing instinct. .


You'll have to ask the original designers why they bred in setter and pointer, but they're dead. Why would anyone want to soften a point?

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Ithere is indeed SOME speculation of some introduces breeds including Chessie however no mention of setter/pointer outcross in the original stud books. Labs have always been considered flushing dogs, and were developed as such. The "point' or soft flush is evident in some strains of spaniels as well, but we as breeders have done our best to breed away from this unwanted characteristic. To answer your original question I wouldn't that's why I breed and train flushing/retrieving dogs, and that is why my dogs must prove up in the field before I will consider than for breeding. If a tendency for a soft flush or point crops up that dog would be altered and removed from the future gene pool. I'm sure a knowledgeable spaniel breeder could with time develop a strain of "Pointing" Springers but why the hell would they want to. It makes no sense to take anything that excels in its 'craft' and make it a mediocre player in another field.


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That was actually a rhetorical question...
I would think it would be obvious that a flushing lab breeder would make darn sure that any breeding stock would meet their (flushing) criteria before breeding.
The fact that a dog has the "AKC" in front of it's name means nothing.
You wouldn't go searching for breeding stock from service dog lines anymore than you would pointing dog lines.

By labeling a "point" as a "soft flush" speaks volumes to your knowledge of pointing dogs. A point is a point....nothing else.
If you have to wait 10 minutes before the final brake and flush, is that considered an "extremely soft flush"? How about 30 minutes? 45?...still just soft?
That's a rhetorical question too... No need to answer.


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You are correct I am not a pointing dog man nor do I profess to be, However I do know a thing or 2 about the flushing dogs and flushing retrievers and I have hunted behind so called pointing labs with very knowledgeable pointer people and every one of these labs were termed as flash pointers stopping for a few seconds before flushing the bird. To me that's a week or soft flush unacceptable to flushing dog people and according to the very experienced pointer men I have hunted with a 'flash point' unacceptable to the diehard pointer people. In other words they are not preforming as flushing dogs should nor as pointers should. I could argue this all day but it would be kind of like trying to convince Labradoodle 'breeders' that their so called designer dogs are just crossbreds. So at this point I will just wish you good day and agree to disagree with you.


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Originally Posted by cazman
You guys are funny.

I have one. Great dogs. Points, listens, retrieves and I have NEVER lost him.

I have had Setters and will have one again, but with a growing family, limited time, and having to jump on an opportunity to hunt upland and water at any given moment my pointing lab was just the ticket. And it was too much for me to go to a flusher.

Mine is from Black Forest and I would say that the PL kennels are doing well. The PL version has probably just leveled off from the intial hype, that all.


I agree,

I'm on my second lab from Tiger Mountain Pointing Labradors....read their history. Hunt over the dogs. Don't believe what you read on the net.




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This is the dumbest discussion I've ever read on 24hrcampfire. A bunch of fools talking about something they've never seen. How about speaking to facts you have witnessed?


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Originally Posted by MarlinMark
This is the dumbest discussion I've ever read on 24hrcampfire. A bunch of fools talking about something they've never seen. How about speaking to facts you have witnessed?


Hard to be objective about your dog. I understand. I won't even try to tell you that I think your lack of objectivity is "dumb".

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Originally Posted by Backroads
Ranger1 gets it.



This ^&^^^ there are enough breeds of dogs to anything that needs to be done. We don't need to be bastardizing any more breeds in some never-ending search for the dog that can do it all, all the time. This is part of the reason I like Chessies. They haven't been messed with too much and they're not popular enough to attract the get rich quick backyard breeder crowd. Even primarily show bred bloodlines are good for something.


Mathew 22: 37-39



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Originally Posted by MarlinMark
This is the dumbest discussion I've ever read on 24hrcampfire. A bunch of fools talking about something they've never seen. How about speaking to facts you have witnessed?



Don't get around much, do you Mark? smile


Mathew 22: 37-39



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I bought a pointing lab from Bearpoint Kennels in CO. My objective was to have a healthy, quality upland lab. I didn't care if it pointed o not, just thought that it would be a bonus if it did.

Well, it does, and it points really well, and does all of the other stuff a lab is supposed to do. Several of my hunting buddies are now believers in pointing labs.
My suggestion to those non believers is to go hunt with a well bred pointing lab and see for yourself.

As I read this thread, I suspect that many of the naysayers have never actually hunted behind a pointing lab, but hold tightly to their narrow opinions.

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Bearpoint Kennels hosts PL field trials, as I'm sure you know. Took my 8 MO lab there last summer for the rattlesnake avoidance clinic they hosted.

I would suggest that the naysayers actually attend a PL field trial before expressing opinions about stuff they have no knowledge of.


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I much rather hunt over a high head and poker straight tail pointer or a high head Brittany any day.

Now that I think about it more I would rather hunt over a nice little Cocker, Boykin, or Springer, then any Lab pointer or not. And in the duck blind I will take a Chessie over a lab any day and all day.

Last edited by MontanaCreekHunter; 06/01/14.

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I stumbled across this old thread when I started checking out the pedigree of my Lab and found that he has quite a few ancestors that were bred for their pointing ability.

Some of his blood comes from the Sauk River Kennels.

Here's one of their PL's.

It looks like it comes natural to him,...and he looks kind of chunky for a field Lab. I can't see any Weim in him.


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Late to this party, but better late....

Any who have seen a cracker jack pointer do their thing will quickly realize a Pointing Lab falls short of the real thing. Now I've seen some so called Pointers that were damn good flushers. The fault-and it was-was the owners.


Best Springer I had was a hard flusher. Litter mate won the Springer National Championship. That Dog lived to catch and kill. He was born with the right blood and at the right time. He had Birds upon end to play and learn from. He trained himself, I just let him hunt and finally the the trilogy of Dog, Bird, Gun clicked and then it was game on. We could have arrived together sooner, but at the time I didn't know better. Funny thing happened around the age of 11. If I was out of place, or a little too far back for shooting, he would point and it was intense and he was serious about it. I would walk up and say "Get em" and in he went. Smart boy he was.

Groundhogs may have been his favorite game. He went underground more than once to get them. laugh Not sure exactly what I had, but I doubt I will ever have his equal.

You were a great Bird Dog Duffy. I'd have bet money on you every time and would have lost few.

Addition: Those who want a pointing Lab should get one. However, know going in that if it is hunting with the real deal, it will be sucking hind tit all day long.

Last edited by battue; 07/27/17.

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That video shows a nice solid scent point. The dog was even chewing scent. Period. From the proud owner of a class fdsb pointer. But dMn let that dog alone lol.

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Does indeed show a solid point, however, the point was if the Lab had been hunting with a good Pointer or Setter the ground would have already been covered. The bird already pointed.

Bust thru nasty cover and flush running Wild Pheasants, I'd take a Lab. Point Quail and Ruffed Grouse a pointing dog.

Any pointing Lab yet to win any of the serious pointing field championships? Even if one was great at the pointing part, it couldn't keep up when it comes to covering ground. Shotputters don't win the marathon. That was a young Dog and he was quickly sucking wind on easy ground. He isn't built for hunting fast and hard for any extended period of time.

A good Springer would also run that Lab into the ground and flush the Birds before he/she had a chance to do any pointing.

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A big depends. A big assumption that the big running pointer covers the same ground as effectively as the pointing lab. If the lab is from field lines run is not a problem at least where I hunt. I have never been limited by a field trial bred lab while hunting grouse and woodcock, day after day. Breeding counts for this. The lab gene pool is big enough for different lines. The AKC has done far more damage to the breed then a couple pointing lab breeders will ever do. As to why labs point, while no one knows the special sauce the good english lords bred in with their st john water dogs, setters were there for sure. Traits can be brought back to the top via selective breeding.

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Like battue, I must have missed this thread the first time around. Must admit up front that I'm not a field-trial guy, but an all-around upland/waterfowl hunter. My first Lab's father was the Utah field-trail champion, long before I can ever recall the idea of pointing labs ever coming up. My dog taught himself to point certain birds, without an encouragement from me, and was doing it pretty consistently in his later years. He also taught himself to catch cottontail rabbits in snow, when he was younger and faster, which I didn't mind either. None of my other previsou Labs have shown much drive to point, though my present 60-pound chocolate female started to some last fall, at five years of age.

Have hunted with a number of different dogs in my travels around the world, one a bluetick hound in Alabama that pointed quail as well as the well-bred pointing dogs in his owner's string.

One of my Labs was actually half Llewellin setter, given to me by an Arizona guide who had a dozen Llewellins for quail, and one Lab for waterfowl. One of the female setters and the Lab had a party (through a chain-link fence) one night, and the result (of course) was 11 puppies. My friend kept a female and gave me a male. Hunted him until he was 12, and while he retrieved better than any setter I've hunted with, he never showed any tendency to point. But he could sure run and flush all day long.

Obviously I'm not into the purity of breeds, and debating about diluting them....


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No doubt you can sometimes get a good surprise out of a thru the fence breeding. Labs are the coolest of Dogs, but when they size up it becomes difficult for them to keep up in the uplands. I tried to buy one down in Georgia that was a midget, but I've only seen one other Dog that had a nose equivalent to his. He would have made a great Grouse flusher.



Addition: Right now Merlot is working on being a Groundhog specialist. He doesn't have it all down yet, but for some reason he thinks they are evil.

Last edited by battue; 08/23/17.

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One of my Labs was a chocolate male from parents that weighed 65 and 75 pounds. He was 92 by six months, and around 100 at maturity when lean and mean. He was the best retriever and waterfowl Lab I've owned, but you could not hunt him in the uplands during September and most of October unless right next to a cool stream, and even then he'd only last an hour or so. On December pheasant hunts he'd roll around in snow to cool off. But he could bust brush, both to flush and retrieve pheasants, as well as he could retrieve Canada geese.

The present 60-pound female we deliberately bought when she was 18 months old, to make sure she would be the right size for early-season upland hunting. The breeder we bought her from lives on a ranch, and we got to take a winter walk with our potential dog and two other Labs while sizing her up. She soon started acting birdy, with her nose in the air rather than down on the ground, and followed the scent to a covey of Huns 250-300 hundred yards away, the other two Labs following along behind her acting puzzled. She's not as good on Canada geese as the big dog was, but she can hunt upland birds in September, and we hunt far more upland birds than waterfowl anymore.


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A flusher that goes to the Birds head up-like a pointer-instead of fooling with ground scent is a jewel. I've only had one and the little Lab I mentioned was another. Both had an incredible scenting ability.

Last edited by battue; 08/24/17.

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They're all different, aren't they? It's one of the aspects of bird-hunting with dogs that keeps it endlessly fascinating, along with the fact that bird-hunting without dogs isn't much fun.....


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Labs are well known to throw some bruisers to small parents sometimes! I like my labs no more than 60 lbs to lift them into the boat one handed. Their intelligence makes them killers and great partners and versatile. Battue I have had a line bred hege haus deutch kurzhaar along with my current pointer and YES their athleticism is astonishing sometimes!

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