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257 roberts; "you are right on!! he is getting rifle hunting confused with bow hunting... differant concept"

Okay let me start by stating that I am not confusing the difference between rifle & bow hunting. I am pretty sure I know the difference.

The point I was trying to make is not how much your bow draws. Because that equals to nothing. With broadhead lethality studies it has been suggested that there is a minimum force required to get that sharp broadhead in to the vitals in order to cause hemorrhage. These studies have even broken down by cut on contact, punch on contact, & expandable. Which these have different power requirements i.e. Kinetic Energy, in order to drive the broadhead in to the vitals.

There has been a trend over the last 13 years that I have watched were Traditional archers are lowering their draw weights. The main reason for this is because of our aging traditional archers. I am a firm believer that a man or woman should, in a hunting situation, draw the maximum weight that he or she can accurately shoot. Now if you are below or at the minimum force required then you need to do several things to insure a humane kill. Some things I would look at are; distance the shot on game is taken, Extreme Fine Tuning of your equipment, change your broadhead to a long narrow High Mechanical Advantage head. ETC.

Will a 40 pound bow kill a elk? Sure but the archer better know what he/she is doing and thoroughly think the process out very carefully.

Glynn, Congrats on a very nice looking buck. A big bodied deer for sure and I'm glad to see the recommended KE worked for you. Since you were on the upper end of the thin hides and light bones category 25 to 39 foot-pounds of energy. You should have gotten a pass thru and help to prove my suggestion.
BTW, Glynn, If I owned a 65# recurve or longbow that shot a 9.5 grains per pound arrow weight at only 165 fps or 175 fps, I'd cut it up and throw it in the wood stove to heat my shop. Altering numbers to impress a point isn't needed. I said nothing about bow poundage in my earlier post.

These discussions are pretty common in the trad circles...

Seems like some of the guys using and advocating 65# bows can't draw them back past about 50# and they end up losing the power stroke, which is just as important for KE and momentum.

My advice is to shoot a bow # you can handle, with a decent arrow weight of 9 GPP, and go hunt. keep the ranges reasonable and hit the spot at the moment of truth.

ding ding ding...we have a winner, good post!

Seems like sound advice, ghost, but it certainly has flaws.

Lets take 257 roberts for an example. (I'm certainly not picking on him this is just an example.) He posted earlier he is shooting a 35# Samick bow. Lets just say that is all he can handle and he matches up a 315gr arrow and decides to hunt with that setup because that's what he has and all he can handle as far as bow poundage. What would you recommend he hunt with his setup, small game, medium game, or big game?

I'd certainly advise he stick to small game as I'm sure that would be your advice also. Because of broad statements folks that don't know go out with their 35# Samick bow and try to shoot deer with it and have very bad experiences. Educating is something I do on a daily basis when it comes to trad gear. And with out tangible numbers that we can understand and use as guide lines we are back to the stone age.

Now I also know a person that killed two bull elk with a 48# longbow last year. I also know that he is very very confident with tuning his equipment and chooses the other parts to the puzzle with extreme care. I also know he is a two time world champion elk caller and shot both bulls up close and personal. But as a blanket statement I would never, on an open forum, advise 48# bows to kill elk.

The suggestions of knowing your equipment numbers is certainly more tangible than just stating a 40# bow and 360 gr arrow is all you need to hunt with. I have these discussions all the time. Folks just don't get it. And just because I know some one that jumped off a bridge does that mean I should. Of course not. Different people have different skill levels that are learned over time. I didn't start hunting with a 90 pound bow. I started with 35# at the age of 5. Now that bow was 35# @ 28" and at that age I am certain I was not drawing the bow to 28". Maybe 23" and maybe pulling 25# as a guess but I killed a Canadian goose with a head shot. Once my folks gave the bow back to me and I grew taller, stronger, I finally worked out of that bow and went to heavier bows and so on. It was a progression. With today's Wal-Mart mentality I want it now & to do it now but I have no idea what I am doing. Is what gives us passionate bowhunters black eye's. Cause we are all lumped together. Blanketed advice does not help cure the black eye's that we get each year.

ding ding ding...we have a looser, good post!

Sorry, 257 roberts, if you act like a child I'll treat as one.

Yeah, I don't disagree.

There are minimums, but as long as a person meets the state mandated poundage requirement, it's not up to us to decide, is it.

Saw a guy awhile back on the forums that killed a big bull moose with a 41# recurve.

Do I agree with his choice of weapon? No. But it ain't up to me to decide what's right for everybody.

Thinking you need to shoot 60+lbs to hunt is just a bunch of macho bull created around an "I can draw more weight than you mentality" It's a worse detriment to trad archery than the guys who hunt elk with 35lb bows. A 35-40lb bow will kill very well when certain limitations and requirements are met. Shooting heavy bows will not make up for poor shot placement and it don't take a lot to shoot through an elk when you put the arrow in the right spot.

If you can accurately shoot a heavy bow, go for it, but don't tell me it's necessary.

What is your preferred setup for making bad shots on elk?

Yeah, actually it is up to us. Just because, the state you hunt in, applies a minimum doesn't mean you need to hunt with said MINIMUM required equipment.



Sir, at no time have I advised you to hunt with a heavy bow...now have I? I did not say you need to shoot any poundage, to the contrary, I suggested using a KE study as a guide line.



That, Sir, is just special. Your Momma would be proud.

If 48# will kill elk consistantly for one guy, why wouldn't it for anybody else?

I disagree. It's all about shot placement. Trying to up the arrow weight of a lighter bow to increase the energy works fairly well until you start going by a bunch of BS charts and wind up with an arrow with the trajectory of a hand thrown brick. At that point you have decreased your accuracy by making distance estimation too critical. There are many dynamics that determine penetration and heavy arrows and heavy bows are just 2, neither of which is worth a flip if you miss your target.

It will unless he reads too many BS charts.

I used to think like you, but I've evolved from that viewpoint some.

For instance, I hunted elk in CO last fall with two other trad guys and a compound shooter. The trad shooters both shot 65# bows and neither could hit schit. Why? Because it was simply just too much bow for either of them.

That ain't ideal.

For me personally just regarding my business animals the size of elk will rarely get a pass through with 45-50 lbs

There is a difference in what it takes to kill an animal that size and what it takes to find an animal that size after the shot.

What was it shot with? As I said a lot of factors determine penetration. A large contributing factor is how well the arrow is tuned to the bow. After that, broadhead design and arrow diameter are significant.

Okay, let me break this down for you. Poundage does not kill anything. Broadheads do the damage. Getting said broadhead thru the vitals is the key. Elk have large bones then deer, they also have thicker hides. It takes power to push the broadhead thru to the vitals. To cut all the veins, arteries, and capillaries. That is how broad heads kill stuff.

For an example and example only...If you have a 48# bow that is tuned to get the absolute best arrow flight coupled with a long narrow cut-on contact broadhead and a shooter that keeps his distance to less than 20 yards. With the ability to shoot said bow extremely accurate. Then you have a winner.

Some beginner archers do not know the first thing about getting PERFECT arrow flight from their bow. I'll even go as far as 50% of experience Trad Bowhunters don't know how to get their equipment tuned for optimum deliverance of the arrow. Then most beginners buy punch on contact heads (because it easier & faster) which require more force just to get thru the skin...not to mention the force needed to punch thru a rib on an elk.

And the information I posted above about suggested minimum KE to perfect arrow flight as a standard.

Now take a 70 pound bow that is shot buy a guy that thinks he knows what he is doing. But his arrow flight is wagging like a dogs tail will probably fail in penetration compared to the 48# bow that is tuned to perfection.

That's why I don't use POUNDAGE of BOW to determine if it is going to be able to deliver your arrow thru the vitals.



Mr Clark, you are more than welcome to disagree. But let me just say that I think you are missing my point. I agree with you that shot placement is VERY IMPORTANT. But it is not the end all. If your broadhead can not penetrate the hide, rib, and at least stop at at the off side ribs. Then your PERFECT SHOT PLACEMENT IS USELESS. And preferably I want an excite hole to spill more tracking blood on the ground.

Also who cares if you have a rainbow arch. Statistics show that most traditional bow kills are less than 20 yards. If you can't figure out your trajectories before you hit the timber you have no reason to be shooting at game, period.



Those BS charts are good for people that THINK they know everything there is to know. We would all be better educated if we looked at some things and understood before calling BS. I did not put together these charts...people smarter than I did those charts...I'm not selling anything to any body...I'm trying to educate people when it comes to Traditional Bowhunting.



No, Sir, that is not IDEAL. And a shame that those two gentlemen did not do their home work. I will be the first to admit we need to help as many, want be, bowhunters as we can. Heck your example is very similar to an example when I had three compound shooters at my shop ask if they could use my target for practice. I said of course. They started tearing it up. I watched a little and asked how many were hunting this year. All three proudly announced they were all ready to go. These three guys could not group two arrows together and needless to mention they never come close to the bulls-eye. But they were ready to go. I went to the shop and grabbed some arrows and a bow and asked if I could join them. Before I knew it they were done. Two came back later and asked if I would help them learn more about bowhunting. Of course I said yes. And them two fellas were successful that season with my help. Now the other fella was here just last month asking if I'd give him a hand.

We all could use a little help now and then. And educating is helping the majority of the time. So lend a hand to a struggling archer. Even if it is the harsh words of your not ready to hunt with that thing yet!

Another thing to discuss is bow efficiency. An upper end ILF rig of 45# will cast an arrow quicker than an old school 65# Hill longbow. Can o worms...

In the end, it's about shot placement, sharp heads and getting close.

Ghost, I'm pretty sure Jim is referring to his clients that hunt with him in Africa. And I'd put money on it they were using something more efficient than a high end ILF rig.

Are we talking about trad bows or not?

Ghost, it's all relevant. The more archers we have either carrying stick or compound the better it is for all of us. I have no problems with compound guys...there's more compounds sold annually then there are stick bows include high end ILF bows. Which some don't consider ILF bow Trad bows.