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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,938 |
How many black babies are you willing to adopt in support of your belief?
My youngest sister is black. What your point? We said rational. My view is, if you can't take care of the child, there are many preventative measures to make prior to having to kill. [/quote] There are cost associated with imposing your beliefs on others. If you are not willing to personally shoulder those costs, you must don't really believe. As for you sister, your growing up with here was the result of decisions made by your parents. So I ask again. Are you willing to shoulder the cost yourself and walk the walk, or do you expect others to bear the financial costs of your beliefs?
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 01/23/14.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Gentlemen of the campfire,its been many years since school so forgive me if Im not correct.A person becomes human life when their DNA becomes complete.They will never become more human.Isnt this completion what we call fertilized. This is an opinion, that in all likely hood coincides with your religious belief. Just because you assert it, does not make it true. Barak covered this in his egg/chicken example. This is a blatant straw man response.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It is not a murder unless the killing is of a human.
What separates humans from animals? Sentience!
Is the single cell fertilized egg sentient?
Is the zygote sentient?
Personally I do not believe babies at birth are self aware. The activity of the new born human's brain is like that of any large mammalian baby. It runs on instinctive needs, hunger, and pain.
Sentience is sometime defined as the ability to be aware of one's mortality. Infants do not have such an ability. Heck most teenagers are blissfully unaware of their mortality.
Many have included as abortions and murder, anything which destroys an egg after conception.
I find it ludicrous to compare the use of an IUD to late term abortion. There can be no sentience when no cells have differentiated to become nervous tissue. There can be no human mind, so there can be no murder.
The potential for humanity exists in that tiny five day old blastocyst as it implants in the uterine wall, or is repelled by the presence of an IUD. But it does not exist yet.
If it is a sin to destroy the potential for humanity, we would have to force every girl to marry by her menarche, and have relations monthly during her fertile period lest one potential human be wasted. We each must determine where we would draw the line when it come to potential humanity in this over crowded world.
Personally, I am anti-abortion. As I love kids and adore our babies and grand babies.
But I am pro-choice.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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How many black babies are you willing to adopt in support of your belief?
My youngest sister is black. What your point? We said rational. My view is, if you can't take care of the child, there are many preventative measures to make prior to having to kill. There are cost associated with imposing your beliefs on others. If you are not willing to personally shoulder those costs, you must don't really believe. As for you sister, your growing up with here was the result of decisions made by your parents. So I ask again. Are you willing to shoulder the cost yourself and walk the walk, or do you expect others to bear the financial costs of your beliefs? [/quote] This position justifies killing anyone who is not a net financial asset to society.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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infanticide is just plain wrong. Period. Life begins at conception. Ya it does..technically. IMHO a glob of tissue that WILL GROW into a child, is not yet a child, no more than a fertile egg is a chicken. Without going into depth in regards to medical opinion, I am pro-choice up until a fetus is capable of thought, pain, and feeling. At that point I become pro-life. The Morning After Pill does not offend my senses, but then again I do not come from a background of religion. One will get federal charges for disturbing a fertilized eagle egg...but we can free kill our own. Doesn't seem right, to me anyways. I'm not trying to contradict your view, I just suppose I look at things differently than some. JMO and yours. Were all granted that. Laws against disturbing an EGG, not an eagle. Your point is taken that it is a glaring inconsistency of the left, but not mine.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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How many black babies are you willing to adopt in support of your belief?
My youngest sister is black. What your point? We said rational. My view is, if you can't take care of the child, there are many preventative measures to make prior to having to kill. There are cost associated with imposing your beliefs on others. If you are not willing to personally shoulder those costs, you must don't really believe. As for you sister, your growing up with here was the result of decisions made by your parents. So I ask again. Are you willing to shoulder the cost yourself and walk the walk, or do you expect others to bear the financial costs of your beliefs?[/quote] Yes. My wife and I have already discussed this. I just don't understand why folks see the need to bring race into this. We just had a child, a week ago. We discussed very early that of fertility were an issue, we would adopt. And that is still on the table, for the future.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Personally I do not believe babies at birth are self aware. The activity of the new born human's brain is like that of any large mammalian baby. It runs on instinctive needs, hunger, and pain. How can a being that can experience hunger and pain be unaware?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The argument from sentience is politically persuasive but permits the killing of sleeping folks and those under general anesthesia or temporary coma.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Gentlemen of the campfire,its been many years since school so forgive me if Im not correct.A person becomes human life when their DNA becomes complete.They will never become more human.Isnt this completion what we call fertilized. This is an opinion, that in all likely hood coincides with your religious belief. Just because you assert it, does not make it true. Barak covered this in his egg/chicken example. This is a blatant straw man response. Not at all. An unsupported assertion is in itself a logical fallacy. I just addressed the logical fallacy and specified typical source of the mentioned assertion.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You ascribed intention which makes it a blatant straw man.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The argument from sentience is politically persuasive but permits the killing of sleeping folks and those under general anesthesia or temporary coma. THIS is what a straw man argument looks like. A sleeping person is still sentient.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25,847
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Personally I do not believe babies at birth are self aware. The activity of the new born human's brain is like that of any large mammalian baby. It runs on instinctive needs, hunger, and pain. How can a being that can experience hunger and pain be unaware? A cow and a deer experience hunger and pain yet we consider them not to be SELF aware, and the killing of such is not murder.
The argument from sentience is politically persuasive but permits the killing of sleeping folks and those under general anesthesia or temporary coma.
Not really, as those are temporary status. But it might allow termination of those in permanent vegetative state.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Mar 2011
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So, if a pea doesn't know its a pea, then it's not a pea?
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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No, that is a Gedanken experiment. Check it out.
Yours is a partial reply. What about temporary coma? And, you ain't ever seen me sleep. ;-{>8
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Is being a fetus not a temporary status?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It is not a murder unless the killing is of a human.
What separates humans from animals? Sentience!
Is the single cell fertilized egg sentient?
Is the zygote sentient?
Personally I do not believe babies at birth are self aware. The activity of the new born human's brain is like that of any large mammalian baby. It runs on instinctive needs, hunger, and pain.
Sentience is sometime defined as the ability to be aware of one's mortality. Infants do not have such an ability. Heck most teenagers are blissfully unaware of their mortality.
Many have included as abortions and murder, anything which destroys an egg after conception.
I find it ludicrous to compare the use of an IUD to late term abortion. There can be no sentience when no cells have differentiated to become nervous tissue. There can be no human mind, so there can be no murder.
The potential for humanity exists in that tiny five day old blastocyst as it implants in the uterine wall, or is repelled by the presence of an IUD. But it does not exist yet.
If it is a sin to destroy the potential for humanity, we would have to force every girl to marry by her menarche, and have relations monthly during her fertile period lest one potential human be wasted. We each must determine where we would draw the line when it come to potential humanity in this over crowded world.
Personally, I am anti-abortion. As I love kids and adore our babies and grand babies.
But I am pro-choice.
How many abortions take place in the first five days? You need to base your argument on what is actually happening with abortions in this country. You can't be both pro choice and anti abortion based on an argument that has no bearing on the reality of the situation. Real human babies are being killed every day out of convenience. They look like tiny babies and I believe they feel pain. I am more sorry for a society that will rationalize the killing of innocent children than I am for the children themselves.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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" Either its murder or it isnt."
Not exactly.
If you believe life begins at conception, then abortion is homicide, but not necessarily murder.
T thought I made that clear, as far as my stance.
You have to touch all the bases to score a run, even if you knock the ball over the fence. Bullsh!t. My son touched three bases and then was born. While he was in the NICU, I saw living, breathing babies that only touched two bases. I got an incredible gift to have my eyes opened about abortion by spending 10 weeks in a NICU.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." ![[Linked Image]](http://www.rockymtnrefl.com/TetonFenceBarncd1985987.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The 800 pound gorilla in this debate is that living humans, by any reasonable standard or definition are slaughtered for convenience by those, who by their own actions (98% of the time) invited them into their womb.
This is evil and you needn't be religious to see it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
There are cost associated with imposing your beliefs on others. If you are not willing to personally shoulder those costs, you must don't really believe.
As for you sister, your growing up with here was the result of decisions made by your parents.
So I ask again. Are you willing to shoulder the cost yourself and walk the walk, or do you expect others to bear the financial costs of your beliefs?
My wife and I have raised six children to adulthood and we have taken in six others I call strays that lived with us from one to five years. At no time were those children on any kind of tax payer handouts. That is no foster care or food stamps. I have fathered one child. As I have stated early on in this thread, my sister in law, that is my wife's baby sister, was raped. The result of that rape is just setting up his medical practice. She was a young single girl just out of high school when raped. The family paid all the costs of her pregnancy and the early years of her child's life until she met and married a good man. Again, no tax dollars involved. All the children that passed through our home were mostly white, one was have Native American. However no child weather red, yellow, black, or even paisley would have been turned away from our home. So yes, I raised and supported a lot of other peoples kids and I still stand behind my beliefs that abortion is in most cases wrong. I believe that life starts at the point of conception. As for the fertile chicken egg, it is alive until it is killed. Refrigeration kills a chicken egg but one left for weeks at room temperature can be hatched.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Let all those that think it is not murder or think abortion is OK... Make them take part in a late term abortion where the child is birthed and then the back of the spinal cord is cut to kill the baby.. make them look at that child and ask them if it is still OK
You are right if you think I can not have a rational debate on a topic where you are killing a child... All right thinking folks condemn that without having to actually see it. But if my 14 YO daughter or grand daughter were gang raped, I don't like the idea of her being reminded of it on a daily basis while being forced to carry the child to term. And you would have your child carry it to term? Yes, I would have my 16 year old carry that child to term. I would show her all the love I can muster and explain to her that the innocent child inside her committed no crime, committed no act of violence or hate. That child could be the one good thing to come out of a horrible situation. Find a living home and allow that precious, innocent child to live, grow and love and be loved as I love her.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
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