Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 475 A&M Mag - BREVEX - info wtd for A&M Rifle Co.

Hell All,

I'm posting this here also in the hopes that I might find someone that can provide some background and history on the A&M Rifle Company.

I found this beauty on the Internet. When when it arrived I was absolutely thrilled to see what I purchased.

It was listed as an; "Atkinson & Marquart Mauser .475 A&M Magnum" with the description; "...a Custom Gun built by A&M.....Fancy hardwood stock.....Oak leaf and acorn Basket Weave Carved..... w/ rosewood Pistol Grip and Forearm....." etc., etc.

And here is what I received;

A Custom rifle built by The Atkinson & Marquart Rifle Company (as marked on top of barrel) - in original 475 A&M Magnum caliber (as marked on left side of barrel) - built on a French M300 BREVEX action - with a Custom Mesquite Stock - with Black & White Line accented Rosewood Forend and Grip Cap - with Oak Leaf & Acorn Basket Weave Carved by by Nils Hultgren. Rifle has a 22" heavy A&M Barrel with an integral Pendleton Muzzle Brake, and integral Forward Recoil Lug under the barrel. The sights are A&M Custom 2-leaf Express Sights w/ each leaf adjustable for both elevation & windage. Whistles and Bells include a Hand Engraved Floorplate with Cape Buffalo w/ a Custom Floorplate Safety Lock, a Canjar Match Trigger, and an Engraved Gold Diamond Monogram Inlay in the Grip Cap.

The Gold Diamond Monogram Inlay is engraved "J D L" - and the top of bolt release is engraved "1972 J.D.L." I'd like to know if anyone has an idea who "JDL" may have been. I'm sure he was in the Big Bore gun game in the Late 60's into the early 70's.

Please help with History about A&M as I've found very little. As always comments and opinions are always welcome.

What thrills me the most about this rifle is the story associated with the 475 A&M Mag cartridge and Fred Barnes. It appears in Cartridges of the World. (see red highlighted text)










I got an email yesterday indicating that the A&M Rifle Company supplied 17 caliber barrels for the O'Brien Rifle Company, and that Nils Hultgren did the custom stocks for O'Brien. I guess that explains the A&M / Hultgren connection for the stock on my rifle.

Now if only someone could tell me who J.D.L. was. My internet searches keep coming up with Jewish Defense League but I really don't think this rifle was built for them?

Seems like I saw an article written about that in one of the G&A annuals one time also.

Hello Dave93,

Can you remember which one? I think I have them all, and you could save me a lot of looking time.

No help from me, but what an awesome looking rifle.

Unfortunately, over the years I've thinned out my mag collection at various times due to space limitations or moves. If I find it, I'll let you know.

Hello Dave93,

You don't have to look for it, just "remember" what one it was. I have them all, just don't want to have to page thru all of them.

Gorgeous rifle. Might be fun with reduced loads. Greatly reduced.

buckstix,
Another one?

Man, you have good tastes in guns.

Let me guess; you drink 23yr old Pappy Van Winkle, smoke Opus X cigars, and understand that gentlemen hunt quail with a "best quality" side by side.

Nice rifle, enjoy!

405wcf

Bill A and Paul M made barrels and built complete rifles. The 475 is made from 460 Wby cases. Bill went on to work for Ruger in Arizona. I think he was plant manager. The barrel making equipment ended up with Dan Pedersen, I believe, but may be wrong there. Nils did carving on the high end Weatherby stocks made in the 60's and I believe also made compete stocks. He made stocks from mesquite which is quite heavy. Notice the resemblance to the Weatherby stocks of that era.

Hello Dave93,

You can stop looking. I got this info from a member on another forum. 1974 Guns & Ammo Annual, page 174.

Well isn't this something? Its my exact same newly acquired rifle. I only wish the article by Jack Lott had given details as to when, and for who, the rifle was made. The only info about my rifle was the information in the captions. Maybe it "was" made for Jack P Lott, and they got the middle initial wrong. A "D" instead of a "P".

It looks like this article may bring the Nils Hultgren connection into question. I need to do more research. So I wonder, who was Shaw?

Saweet. Interesting, 1974...I gradiated high school.

As a guess, "Shaws" was a stockmaker from California. The 1971 Gun Digest in the "Directory of the Arms Trade" within the category "Stocks (Commercial and Custom" lists the following:

Shaw's, 1655 S. Euclid Ave., Anaheim, Calif. 92802

I did not check issues before or after 1971.

--Bob

Shaws was a store

Hello BullShooter,

I think you are correct. I also found a reference to a Shaw from California, from back in the late 60's, or early 70's.

However, when I compare the basket weave carving on this stock, to that on my Winslows, its a dead ringer, right down to the empty acorn pods. I'm thinking perhaps the screw-bean mesquite stock blank came from Shaw in California, but the carving is definitely Nils' handy work.

buckstix-
Here are a couple of images and references that may be helpful if you weren't already aware of them.

This photo, of Nils Hultgren at work carving a Winslow stock, is from an article on Winslow rifles from Gun World of 50 years ago.

.

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The next photo of a Weatherby was published 31 years ago. The stock appears very similar to yours, with screwbean mesquite wood obviously carved by Hultgren.

.

.

--Bob

Hello BullShooter,

Thank you for the images. I had seen the one of Nils, but not the one of the Weatherby Rifle. In the publication of Big Bore Rifles, by Jack Lott, was there any mention of the 475 A&M caliber?

buckstix-
Two editions of Jack Lott's Big Bore Rifles were published by Peterson Publishing Co. Both were of the usual magazine format.

The first edition from 1983 was labeled "Guns & Ammo Action Series #1" on the cover. ISBN 0-8227-2335-2, 96 pp. All fourteen chapters appear to have been written by Lott. The editors were Boddington and Libourel.

The second edition was published in 1994 after Jack Lott's death. ISBN 0-8227-3185-1, 98 pp. Four of the chapters in this edition are reprints of Lott's chapters in the first edition, with uneven editing. Other chapters are written by Aagaard, Taylor, Boddington, Rees, Kronfeld, Sitton, Siatos, Wooters, Coogan, and Barsness.

Specific to your question on the 475 A&M: The only mention I found was a single paragraph in the chapter "Ultra Magnum Wildcats". Here's the wording from the first edition:

"One would assume that there would be no demand for wildcats of over .458 caliber, but there is and has been for decades, including the monster .475 A&M (Atkinson & Marquart) based on the .378 Weatherby Magnum case. It uses the .475-inch bullet for the .470 Nitro-Express in 400, 500 and 600-grain weights and boasts a velocity of 2,980 fps with a 500-grain bullet and 110 grains of 3031, and a 600-grain bullet at 2,502 fps with 105 grains of 3031. Such a velocity as 2,980 fps for a 500-grain .475 caliber bullet is, of course, absurdly excessive, and regardless of construction, any expanding 500-grain bullet at such a velocity will explode on impact.

(The editors of the second edition altered this paragraph to the point of nonsense.)

--Bob

Hello BullShooter,

Thank you so much for the information.

With the 3 pictures and 3 captions only, appearing in that 1974 Annual Edition, I would have thought that perhaps there may have been an earlier reference to this gun in the regular monthly publication of Guns & Ammo. Something that would tell of its being made, and perhaps for whom.

Since my gun is dated "JDL 1972", perhaps somewhere between mid 1972 and the publication of the Annual in 1974 there may have been such an article.

If you, or any other forum readers, should have come across such mention, please be so kind as to comment here.

Hello All,

I was told that Armslist is full of crooks. Well, here's a little tid-bit of interest for all. I just found this while searching for info about the 475 A&M on the internet.

I found "MY" rifle for sale in 2 different States on Armslist. One from Roanoke, Virginia, the other from Hawley, PA, Ohio. (where ever that is) Both listings show a real good price. The pictures and descriptions have been lifted from the original auction site from where I purchased the rifle.

When I contacted these fraudulent listers and asked for additional photos, they said no additional photos were available, but they gave me their mailing address for payment. There is a place on the posting for "flagging" them as "fraud" but clicking the tab hasn't resulted in the listings being removed.

Maybe the whole site is nothing but a fraud.

Here's the link ...... http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/search?location=usa&category=all&search=475+A%26M

Hello All,

I finally have an update. Many months after starting this post, out of the clear-blue, I got a phone call from a fellow who told me that he knew the man that had this rifle custom built back in 1972. Apparently he had seen one of my posts seeking information, and recognised my rifle.

So, nearly a year after purchasing the rifle, I was in contact with the man "JDL" whos initials were engraved on the rifle. James was now in his 80's and he gave me a full account of the rifle's birth and history. James was personal friends with all the people associated with the rifle's building.

He said that it was the 2nd (and last) 475 A&M built by A&M (Atkinson & Marquart). It seems that a 3rd rifle was started, (built on an action much weaker than this mighty Brevex) but it blew-up during testing and severely injured Marquart. A&M never again built a complete rifle in this caliber, although a few 475 barrels were made by A&M for other builders, one of which we know ended up in the hands of Fred Barnes.

Here are some highlights from a letter I got from James, telling of the rifle and some of his adventures with it:

"...As promised, please find the photograph of the Bull Elephant I shot in Kenya in 1974. He was carrying 107 lbs and 98 lbs of Ivory respectively and was estimated to be 55 years old, and approximately 10,000 lbs to 12,000 lbs in weight, �which was a very above average bull� according to my guide, Ronnie Boy.

Also as promised, please find my .475 A and M Magnum cartridge and a brief history of its development, which I had the unique opportunity to play a small part.

To begin, you will note that the headstamp at the base of the cartridge displays .378 Weatherby Magnum, which was Weatherby�s original case after he had contracted from Norma Products for his Brass in the early nineteen fifty�s.

I first met Bill Atkinson and Paul Marquart of A and M Barrel Company in 1957 and continued with our association through the years up and past the time I had acquired my Sport Store in Escondido.

They had become interested in a cartridge case obtained by Roy Weatherby, who at the time, "I Was informed by A and M Barrel Company that they had imported a substantial amount of cases from Norma Products in Sweden". The original case origin was I was told, was the .416 Rigby case using the huge Brevex Magnum Mauser Action, as mine was also built on, at a later date.

The Rigby case was an old timer, using cordite and had a rim for case extraction, used primarily in the double rifles, where it was necessary for one to grab the fired case and pull it out manually. If the ejectors failed, some hunters, and in many cases the guides and their clients for this reason, elected not to have ejectors built on their double rifles for safety purposes, in the event of a charge from dangerous game.

Roy Weatherby after receiving the cases altered them to .375 Bore diameter, however for marketing purposes, advertised his new caliber as the Weatherby .378 Magnum. The reality of this was, that there is now, or never was any bullets offered in the market place that miked out at .378 diameter. Being a shrewd businessman, he probably "thought that .378 and later .460 sounded more exotic in the firearms market place". At any rate we finally found our case. A & M then went to Norma products and convinced them to ship the cases direct to A and M.

The cases came to A and M with the same Weatherby features. The same case taper, which was I believe was 12%. The belt was there and the extractor groove cut in. When I began the reloading process, I had been furnished new dies from A and M and a bullet puller which I used quite often to pull the bullet up or down to get the right head space. I did this by engaging the bullet in the puller, then moving the bullet up or down in the case until I could just barely see the land marks of the rifling on the bullet. I then set the bullet seating die, and had a perfect fit with my Hollywood turret reloading press.

Later when A and M ordered again from Norma, they acquired the new .460 Weatherby Cases, as approximately ten years had elapsed since our their order. Since the .460 Weatherby Case was quite similar now to Norma's first order, I only had to form fire the case, and run a neck expanding die furnished by A & M and that took care of the major case alterations, other than to form fire the case with a light load to it�s present usable configuration...."

"....When the A&M's engineering began, they went up to .505 dia. using at first the old .505 Gibbs bullets. I believe they had a small quantity of 750 grs. bullets left over from their earlier testing. Also, I heard Fred Barnes contributed a few. Fred Barnes was at the beginning of the .475 A & M project and he was a tremendous craftsman. I did some of the test firing with the Gibbs's bullets, and finally told the boys at A& M that in my opinion the cartridge was just too powerful to be practical, and the only way a human being could conceivably use the thing with reasonable accuracy and not develop a flinch, would be to have a weapon weighing in at an excess of twenty pounds, which would not be practical out in the bush. They concurred. Even in its present configuration, my eye doctor .... who himself was a hunter made the comment, �that the .475 was a detached retina looking for a place to happen�.

A&M then contacted Fred Barnes of Barnes Custom Bullets again and he ended up developing three bullets for the .475. A 600 grs. full metal jacket bullet, which he made, using heavy duty copper tubing, and A 500 grs. bullet using the same jacket thickness, but having an exposed soft point, and a 400 grs. soft point for thinner smaller game.

The 600 grs. Pill worked very well, only bending the points a bit, which gave us maximum penetration on thick skinned game such as Elephant and Cape buffalo, all of the Barnes bullets of course, miked out at exactly .475.... "

"....I believe only two of the .475 A & M barreled actions were made for the .475 and of course loading dies came with the barreled action in the white. In the meantime Jerry Krasne of Krasne�s Gun Shop in San Diego had swiped Nels Hultgren, Weather by's head stock maker, Nels ultimately had done the stock for my rifle. .... Jerry hired Nels to do our stock work and we both took on most of A and M's barreled actions and we had a flourishing custom rifle business for a few years. We were very fortunate to acquire Nels, who was reputed to be one of the world�s finest stock makers.

Regarding my rifle, due its tremendous recoil, I split two very fine Screw Bean Mesquite Stocks. The last split occurring behind the action which had a danger factor big time. This problem forced us to silver solder and Allen head screw another recoil lug to the bottom of the barrel with a cross bolt behind the action to equalize the recoil.

Also due to the recoil, The Brevex Action has a magazine floor plate release, a protruding escutcheon device that works by pressing the back of one�s index finger or thumb firmly against the inside front rear of the trigger guard and the floor plate swings down with the four cartridges held in the magazine. Unfortunately, with this extreme recoil, after each shot the recoil would force my trigger finger forward hitting the magazine escutcheon, releasing the cartridges on the greenery...."

(This problem was corrected by A&M adding the secondary spring loaded locking mechanism seen at the bottom of the triggerguard. When you pull the button the the rear, it unlocks the floorplate release.)

"....In all fairness, I must make this comment regarding the light weight of my rifle, which including the sling, weighed in at about nine and one half pounds. The boys at A and M, including myself, for the most part, used the formula, that one pound of weapon weight equals approximately 10 pounds of shoulder recoil. Regretfully while the exterior diameter of the barrel was very large, it was not quite large enough, as we had not taken into consideration the bore diameter, which of course had no weight, containing only air. Unfortunately, it was too late to change. Another two pounds would have toned the recoil down a bit. Also another two inches of barrel length; this however was hotly debated by my guide Ronnie Boy. Ronnie felt that the additional two inches would have made my rifle too unwieldy.

Regarding this topic, Ronnie said �that we are not snipers, regarding dangerous game, Elephant and especially Cape buffalo; I want you to properly stalk to forty yards and place your bullet. He went on to smile and said jokingly, that he had not lost a client yet�.

Ronnie then went on to make the point again regarding our weeks stay at the Norfolk hotel in Nairobi, Kenya. There we had met Ronnie and our outfitter, who had made all the prior arrangements in the Delmar Bar in the Norfolk Hotel. The Norfolk Hotel has historically been the beginning point for most of the Safari's in Kenya since men began to hunt.

As we sat down in the bar, a very historic with and large room, I couldn't help but notice that there was black crepe paper strung all around the upper moldings of the room. I of course asked "what gives with the black paper and the answer was not what I had expected".

Ronnie began "A well heeled and important couple were on a 30 day hunt like ours and they came on to a very large respectable bull Elephant. The guide instructed the man were to aim and he fired. The animal went down immediately and the guide immediately told his client to stay put while he went up to inspect. He poked his rifle around the animal's head for a few moments, when suddenly without warning, an eye opened and the Bull's trunk went around the guide, lifting him and smashing him against all the thorn trees within an approximate 10 foot circle".

The client's wife was hysterical, the group is approximately 900 miles from Nairobi, and to top it off, a new ruling had just been imposed from the game commission, that a black assistant hunter must be second in command with every safari. Even though there was a language barrier, He got the party of 25, trackers, skinners, cooks etc. back to Nairobi.

Ronnie then had said "when you get unpacked, I want to take you the museum of Natural History, an Elephant's Head is full of air cells and this incident goes to show how cautious one must be even when your game is down. Always put another shot in him" It sure made a believer out of me".

Back to the cartridge, Ignition was accomplished with CC&I Magnum Primers, and that stabilized the load where it remains today .... I elected to use the Barnes 600 grain bullet, I felt, and still do, that it had more stopping power, due its retained kinetic energy inside the animal. Elephants and Cape Buffalos are extremely hard to stop!

Either way, Ronnie Boy would not fire my .475, as he was somewhat small in stature and weighed around 160 lbs. He would always state, when I offered the rifle to him to take a shot,�that the �the bloody thing kills at one end and maims at the other�. I of course, in good natured jest would comment about his truly magnificent .450/500 double rifle, a beautiful rifle, which in all fairness, while not the most powerful weapon around, was still well up to the task with, �I don't know why you brought that little thing along, you already have a jack for the Toyota�. Finally Mrs. got tired of the gun talk and asked that the topic be changed, as it had gone on for a thousand miles from Nairobi, heading north, to Lake Rudolph, where I shot the Cape buffalo, which was the highlight of our safari.

To begin, my wife ... and I were in the Toyota, Ronnie was driving. I remember drowsing off, when Ronnie braked the Toyota suddenly, Look! A line of approximately fifty natives were on our right coming down the hill about one thousand feet in height or so above us, in a kind of serpentine, single file, avoiding some deep ravines. They evidently had seen our convoy of vehicles from the top of the hill. It was truly an impressive sight, highly decorated shields, and spears from the local forge in the area.

They stopped at our Toyota and the chief, a tall gangly fellow walked over to Ronnie, who had told all of us "to stay put" Then, I could hear the Swahili, which Ronnie was fluent in, along with hand waving and pointing from the natives. Ronnie then ran over to the Toyota, "Come on, There is a Cape Buffalo, a Rogue Bull that is marauding the village, and has killed two native children, and every attempt to get the kids's bodies out resulted in the animal charging the natives. when we began to look for him, we began to realize just how cunning this animal was, "He had back tracked crossing over our tracks several times, according to our trackers".

But all things must come to an end, as the bull eventually was spotted in a clearing by one of our trackers, and I was able to get a heart shot off with a second round following, remembering Ronnie's stern lecture earlier, regarding shot placement, "stating that a side, or heart shot is almost a necessity. In the event of a charge, Buffalo most always lower their head, either to the right or left, covering most of the chest area, and of course the massive Boss, or center area of the horns is out".

I then asked Ronnie, "what do you do? " He then replied, "you just pour the lead to him, and hope like hell that you are able to break him down". Therefore, a front shot must only be attempted if the animal is standing or at a slow walk. At any rate, this was a tremendous Bull, and Ronnie stated later, that they are responsible for more deaths then any other animal in Kenya, that even the Lions will not attack them on a one on one basis. Only a hungry pride will attack, and then reluctantly, if it is a bull.

Our excitement did not end with the shooting of Bull. Almost immediately, the entire village gathered to divide up the meat, and the arguments began, mostly over the Intestines which a delicacy, prized for cooking fat. After a few moments of arguments and waving of Machetes, Ronnie said, " this is getting out of hand, fire a few round over their heads, to calm them down." It was quite an experience.

Also, another experience comes to mind. Before we took the big bull, Ronnie had stopped at a small village, where we picked up a local man that knew the area, to use him for a guide. .... The man I would say was in his seventies, very short gray hair, but like all the natives very athletic. We had found out later that Ronnie had taken one of the trackers to guard the Toyota, as the Natives have a propensity for cutting the tires off the make their sandals.

As we were going op a rather steep hill, suddenly we heard a snort, then I swear, I could feel the ground tremble, as this very large Buffalo made what Ronnie Boy said "was a Mock, or a diagonal charge a few yards behind ... Lambushwee". ... Ronnie ... stating that we probably startled him more that us. Anyway the bull vanished and Lambushwee was relegated to guarding the Toyota.

I believe Peterson Publishing did an article on the .475 many years back, in which the article referred to it as �The Dinosaur Flattener� and the name stuck. Also, P.O. Ackley referred to the cartridge in his loading manuals with the comment, �those are only individuals who are expecting to be confronted by animals with supernatural strength that would consider using this cartridge�

The Boys at A & M said �he was jealous, that he had been trying to develop a .450 African cartridge for years on a straight necked blown out version of the. 375 Magnum case, which did not have near enough powder capacity for dangerous African game.�

To my knowledge, it (475 A&M) still remains one of the most powerful shoulder cartridges for sporting purposes in the world, but in all fairness, it never really was a mass produced rifle, but then, what African Rifle is mass produced......."

I am so pleased to have found the builder and the history of this unique rifle. Now I'm hoping that someone recalls the article that appeared in the 1970's that referred to this rifle as �The Dinosaur Flattener�. Someone - please - find that article.

Jim sent me over 120 photos of his African Safari. Many of them show my rifle with the annimals he harvested. Here are a few for your interest.













[img]http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/475f.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/475g.jpg[/img]

Neat thread, for sure!

Very nice rifle and the posting is almost an article in itself. Is " Ronnie Boy" the PH Ronald MacFarlan?

Well have you fired it yet?

Hello Tejano,

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately I don't know Ronnie Boy's real name.

But, yes! I have fired it - quite a lot with fun loads. I shoot a 500g bullet at 2000 fps ... but not the full house 2500 fps load yet.

Getting the history linked up with the rifle is very cool.

Hello utah708,

Yes, I love rifles with stories to tell. Everyone always says - "if only they could talk" - well, sometimes they do.

Very cool story and rifle, love reading about one off rifles like that!

hello rg475,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, and this one is a "hoot" to shoot. Helps me keep the elephant population in check here in Wisconsin.

Yep- I don't think I've seen a single one around here since stix got this rifle!

What a great story! Fantastic rifle! The history behind it is priceless.

Hello,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm still searching for the 1970's Petersen's artical on the 475 A&M that called it "The Dinosaur Flattener".

I really enjoyed the history of your rifle. Boy, the original owner had quite the life! I've bought over a hundred firearms in the last 40+ years and can count on one hand the brand new ones I bought. I've wondered about the history of more than a few I have or had. An old-timer once told me long ago he would always remove the butt plate of any used guns he got, said sometimes guys would put stuff under there assuming it was a stock that had a bolt hole for dis-assembly. Sure enough, I went home and started removing butt plates from my guns. and on an old single shot shotgun, I found two hunting licenses from the '30s from same dude. Ya never know. Thanks for sharing the story, I enjoyed it.

Hello nick,

Thanks for the reply,

I also remove butt plates in search of history, but have never found anything. You are lucky.

Neat thread and very unique rifle!

" anybody want to buy a rifle?"


F A N T A S T I C - all the way around.

1 Rifle, in the first place
2 Story
3 Pics
4 History

I'd call that a 'Grand Slam'

Congrats

And NO, I don't want to buy it, at least to hunt with.


Jerry


ps: I have some of the Petersen's Annuals, not sure how early mine are, but I'll look thru them to see IF I can find anything.

Hello jwall,

thanks for the reply.

I don't think the article was in an annual, but it would have been 1972 through 1980 or there abouts.

You are correct. I have a hodgepodge of magazines/annuals/rifle/handgun/hunting etc. I looked thru the table of contents of all that MIGHT have had the article/cartridge listed and found nothing.

Oh well, it only took a few minutes.

Good luck w/someone else finding it.

Jerry

Hello jwall,

Thanks for the reply.

And thanks for looking. It took over a year to find the History of the rifle, so if it takes another year or two to find the Article, it won't be a big deal.

buckstix,cool piece of history you bought.It was really neat having contact with the original owner and getting those pics.He looked to be a big man.Thanks for posting this.Huntz

Hello Huntz,

Thanks for the reply,

I hope to find another like it someday. I love guns with stories to be discovered.

Just ran across this story. Buckstix has some great stories hiding in his safe! Did you ever find the old G & A article?

Hello hatari,

thanks for the reply.

I never found the article, only the Guns & Ammo Annual reference.

I'm still searching for the 1970's Petersen's artical on the 475 A&M that called it "The Dinosaur Flattener".

Has anyone by chance located this article?

.
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