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did i say all?


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Originally Posted by rattler
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
It happened again 40 years later. God stopped up the Jordan River to allow the Israelites to cross before the battle of Jerico.


with most miracles it isnt so much that the event happened but that it happened at the exact moment it was needed......


C.S. Lewis makes the excellent point that the miracles of Jesus were explained when He said;"The Son only does what the Father does".

God uses a few kernels of wheat to create a field full of wheat. Jesus used a few loaves of bread [ not rocks ] to make many loaves.

God uses the rain falling on the vines to make grapes for wine. So He was the first to turn water into wine.

In raising the dead, He just reversed the natural order of death and decay at particular moments in time. It is presumed that Lazerous etal later experienced a normal death.

The miracles of Jesus are of a different sort than the Old Testament miracles.

It is a mistake to lump them together IMO.


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Who claimed otherwise? Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Nobody I know ever claimed he was there when Abram was called?

Weird stuff here.


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So hind sight isn't 20-20


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Originally Posted by efw
Who claimed otherwise? Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Nobody I know ever claimed he was there when Abram was called?

Weird stuff here.



Yep. Them old Jews were a tough bunch. If you were gonna be their leader, you damn well better have ALL the answers, so he had to start at the beginning.


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Who cares what beast of burden Abram used when he traveled? I don't. I also don't know that camels are mentioned by name in the passage cited. There is an awful lot of useful information left out of the OP's story that would be useful in assessing the usability or credibility of the "study".

Problem with so much of this, as has already been pointed out, is that too many scientists (and not just in those seeking to prove higher criticism) start out with a conclusion in mind & construct "experiments" or "studies" to prove their position.


Again I ask, "Who ever claimed Moses was there when Abram was called?"

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Everybody needs a "from whence have we come" narrative and God used Moses to codify what He'd already established in His people through oral tradition. The question of what beast of burden Abram used after called from Ur was not, at least in my view, important to the post-Exodus people of God.

Nor was the specific method God used in creating the world ex nihilo. The important thing was Abram answered the call, and God was faithful to Him... As He would be to them... In faithful & faithlessness. Same w/ creation. God made the world and everything in it. Whether He used evolution or not didn't matter to those people and I don't think it should matter to us.

Oh well... Whatcha gonna do? Haters gonna hate...

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The Bible's 1st mention of a camel was when Abraham's future daughter-in-law arrived to marry his son Isaac:

Ge 24:64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel


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Tel Aviv University??

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"Rebekah lighted off her Camel"


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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The Bible's 1st mention of a camel was when Abraham's future daughter-in-law arrived to marry his son Isaac:

Ge 24:64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel


Actually, Gen 12:16 is first mention of a camel (camels) in the Bible.

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"He thought it and it was."

That satisfies my intellectual curiosity.

If that qualifies me as a simpleton in the eyes of some, I'll point out that I'm a simpleton who is at peace with myself and the God that made me.

There is no higher station to aspire to than THAT.


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Originally Posted by curdog4570


If that qualifies me as a simpleton in the eyes of some, I'll point out that I'm a simpleton who is at peace with myself and the God that made me.

There is no higher station to aspire to than THAT.


Preach on brother; I am right there with ya. I think there is a particular powerlessness that you and I have accepted that gives us a bit of an advantage in some of this... And I say that as a humble admission of our "advantage" over others, NOT as a proud example of how we're "better".

I am always more than a little disappointed with Christians' willingness to allow this "debate" to take place under the terms set forth by those who begin from a position of cynical unbelief ala Ken Hamm & his ilk.

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Originally Posted by Ramblin_Razorback
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The Bible's 1st mention of a camel was when Abraham's future daughter-in-law arrived to marry his son Isaac:

Ge 24:64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel


Actually, Gen 12:16 is first mention of a camel (camels) in the Bible.


Nobody really knows when the book of Job was written but many date it as far back as 2000-1800 BC. Genesis was written in about 1450-1410. If that is correct, then Job would be by far the oldest book and in Job 1:17, we are told that he owned 3,000 head of camels.


The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.


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Bible Written Long After Events It Purportedly Describes?

I'm sure that Moses wasn't there when God began to create Heaven and Earth �

� but I'm equally sure that the Holy Spirit, Who told Moses all about it eons later, was there at the time � and He seems unfailingly reliable.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















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Originally Posted by Bigbuck215
Originally Posted by Ramblin_Razorback
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The Bible's 1st mention of a camel was when Abraham's future daughter-in-law arrived to marry his son Isaac:

Ge 24:64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel


Actually, Gen 12:16 is first mention of a camel (camels) in the Bible.


Nobody really knows when the book of Job was written but many date it as far back as 2000-1800 BC. Genesis was written in about 1450-1410. If that is correct, then Job would be by far the oldest book and in Job 1:17, we are told that he owned 3,000 head of camels.


Abraham died long before Moses recorded the accounts found in Genesis, too (more than 400 years before). I'm not aware of any internal evidence in the book of Job to indicate when Job lived - so he could have lived before or after Abraham or could have been Abraham's contemporary - we just don't know. I guess to be more definitive I should have written that the earliest "dated" mention (i.e., event that we can approximately date) of a camel in the Bible was in Gen 12:16.

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Originally Posted by Ramblin_Razorback
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The Bible's 1st mention of a camel was when Abraham's future daughter-in-law arrived to marry his son Isaac:

Ge 24:64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel


Actually, Gen 12:16 is first mention of a camel (camels) in the Bible.
You're right. My search didn't pick it up because I searched for camel and that one is plural. It didn't catch it like it should have.


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Well, it still astounds me how some can be so wrong about the outcome of a game , and then still be so certain they are right about the lack of a creator, when even a monkey can pick a a winner.

Is the monkey smarter, luckier, or more sensitive to his Creators direction than is an intelligent being?

What are the odds of a monkey picking the winner 7 times in a row?


Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by curdog4570
"He thought it and it was."

That satisfies my intellectual curiosity.

If that qualifies me as a simpleton in the eyes of some, I'll point out that I'm a simpleton who is at peace with myself and the God that made me.

There is no higher station to aspire to than THAT.


Yep. Same here.

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Bible critics have long used use the "lack of evidence proves something" tactic. One explanation for the lack of camel bones in copper mines is that camels were too valuable to be used in the day to day operation of such mines, but were used for what they do best, which is long distance transportation. It's to be expected then that their bones rarely ended up in copper mines. The critics dismiss the presence of such bones in early layers as being those of wild camels, as if any wild camel would hang around a working copper mine.

What the research really shows is at what time camels became cheap enough to use in copper mines, but of course such a claim wouldn't win any notoriety or research grants.

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