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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux

Another thing that will really help is to put a longer rail on it. I have 15" rails and use the whole rail to shoot the gun. If you get your support hand out near the end of the rail and hang on to it like you mean it, you'll be able to control the gun a lot better.

But keep in mind that there's only so fast you're gonna get that gun. It's just not made for what you were trying to do. You can put a supercharger and street tires on a Jeep but you're not going to turn it into racecar.


I just realized that this translates to YOUR GUN SUCKS AND YOU'RE HOLDING IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!


Maybe in a closed-minded discussion, think it reads more like trying to corner a Jeep like a Camero...different tools for different applications...and JP seems like a open-minded guy.

Last edited by AH64guy; 02/18/14.
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Lol, good. It certainly wasn't meant that way.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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This is an intelligent conversation with facts from first hand experience! My shooting and use is casual, hunting, and "messing around". Yesterday we were just shooting all kinds of stuff, .380's, Ruger #3 in 30-40 Craig, an old Colt SA army model that someone's grandad used as a sheriff in Oklahoma, 22LR's, 223's and my new Smith 308. I wish I had the time to compete but it won't be in the cards for another 3 years when I retire!


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I'm not a competitor but I learned about the gas thing when a 308 Ar-10 started pulling rims on the cases. It all still applies whether you're a hunter or a competitor.

To further explain, when a shell is fired, it swells tight against the chamber. If you have too much gas, the bolt will unlock and start to pull that case out before the pressure is low enough for the case to relax. The result is broken extractors and ruined cases.

Good thread.

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Originally Posted by TWR
I'm not a competitor but I learned about the gas thing when a 308 Ar-10 started pulling rims on the cases. It all still applies whether you're a hunter or a competitor.

To further explain, when a shell is fired, it swells tight against the chamber. If you have too much gas, the bolt will unlock and start to pull that case out before the pressure is low enough for the case to relax. The result is broken extractors and ruined cases.

Good thread.


Good point! Anyone care to tackle the extractor spring/buffer comparisons to help prevent Fail To Extract/Eject?

Great info, Bluedreaux! Thanks for taking the time.

Ed


"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell



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Not much on the extractor/spring setup. Get a good spring kit and replace every 2500 rounds on a carbine system. Rifle and mid length can go longer but at $5 a kit why?

There is a lot of confusion on which gets what. I use BCM's 5 coil kit but I leave out the o-ring on my mid length and intermediate. Too much extractor pressure can cause issues same as not enough.

The extractor needs to be sharp where it grabs the case. Replace every 5000 rounds or as needed. Again these aren't very expensive so get a good one. A Colt at Brownells is under $30 and is much better than the cheaper ones I've seen.

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APDD that can be a whole 'nother animal. I keep it simple and run the midweight buffer with midlength gas and the black rubber thing for the extractor and have been fine. Also when I change springs I change them all, I dont want a half worn spring to influence something else and leave me chasing my tail.

While your opening a can of worms, you can talk about buffer springs too...some get pretty rabid about chrome springs being smoother than stainless, then you can also look at a solid spring vs a wound wire spring.

Whatever you do you need to change one thing at a time to find out if it is hindering or helping. The worst thing a guy can do is to start swapping multiple springs, buffers or even brakes at once and then not be able to figure out what is going on. I have even seen some muzzle brakes (especially cans) completely alter a feeding/extraction cycle and require different buffers.

Also when your setting up a gun you need to know what your source of ammo is going to be. If your counting on over the counter .223 to make it run most of the time you need to be pretty liberal with you gas and know your parts are going to taking a bit more of a beating with 5.56/nato spec ammo. If you keep the gas tight to run the 5.56 be prepared to practice your stove pipe and extraction failures when running .223. The ideal situation is having one source for all ammo and tuning it to the system.

Brian Enos did a ton of work on tuning pistols with springs, brakes, powders and bullet weights, there is no reason the same principles can be applied to a rifle.

Last edited by varmintsinc; 02/18/14. Reason: Brian stuff

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I forgot about the inserts, I can't prove the black insert is stronger than the blue, some say it's just to identify rifle vs carbine. But a blue insert will undoubtably be on a weaker rifle extractor spring.

Again get a good kit, BCM, Colt, Wolf or Tactical Springs all have good kits. When in doubt, replace with a known kit.

Action springs or buffer springs can cause problems too. A carbine spring should measure between 10 1/16"-11 1/4". Rifle should be between 11 3/4"-13 1/2". Change every 5000 rounds.

While we're at it, buffer weights;
Carbine 2.9 oz
H 3.8 oz
H2 4.6 oz
Rifle 5.2 oz
9mm 5.5 oz
H3 5.6 oz

Edit to add; the original 9mm buffer is a solid piece and will induce bolt bounce on a 223. The newer versions are a 2 piece affair that acts as a counter weight. Bolt bounce with a solid buffer would or could bounce back faster than the extractor could grab the rim, leaving the carbine out of battery. You can only see it with high speed video but the click will be heard round the world.

Last edited by TWR; 02/18/14.
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We shot a Stag my friend beat out of a poor fellow using a Keltec Sub2000 the other guy just had to have. We shot it on Presidents day. It shot great but failed to lock back on a Pmag. I am pretty sure its carbine gas, I will tell him to check the buffer to see what is in there.


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Some Pmags wouldn't let the carrier lock back so try some other magazines and remember light ammo will also cause this.

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Originally Posted by TWR
I forgot about the inserts, I can't prove the black insert is stronger than the blue, some say it's just to identify rifle vs carbine. But a blue insert will undoubtably be on a weaker rifle extractor spring.

Again get a good kit, BCM, Colt, Wolf or Tactical Springs all have good kits. When in doubt, replace with a known kit.

Action springs or buffer springs can cause problems too. A carbine spring should measure between 10 1/16"-11 1/4". Rifle should be between 11 3/4"-13 1/2". Change every 5000 rounds.

While we're at it, buffer weights;
Carbine 2.9 oz
H 3.8 oz
H2 4.6 oz
Rifle 5.2 oz
9mm 5.5 oz
H3 5.6 oz

Edit to add; the original 9mm buffer is a solid piece and will induce bolt bounce on a 223. The newer versions are a 2 piece affair that acts as a counter weight. Bolt bounce with a solid buffer would or could bounce back faster than the extractor could grab the rim, leaving the carbine out of battery. You can only see it with high speed video but the click will be heard round the world.


What about buffers that have "shaken loose" the filler weight? IE rattle when shaken? Toss?

Last edited by AH64guy; 02/19/14.
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10-4 was shooting XM193, it locks my colt carbine back, but may be the mag.


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Originally Posted by varmintsinc

Also when your setting up a gun you need to know what your source of ammo is going to be. If your counting on over the counter .223 to make it run most of the time you need to be pretty liberal with you gas and know your parts are going to taking a bit more of a beating with 5.56/nato spec ammo. If you keep the gas tight to run the 5.56 be prepared to practice your stove pipe and extraction failures when running .223.


Do you keep a couple different buffers on hand and change them out depending upon what ammo you are using?


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Originally Posted by AH64guy

What about buffers that have "shaken loose" the filler weight? IE rattle when shaken? Toss?


I think they are supposed to rattle. The loose weight pounds the forward section home, eliminating bolt bounce. The weight bounces instead of the bolt.


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Blue, which buffer would you recommend to help slow down the recoil impulse for a 16 inch barreled Stag? The Stag comes with the carbine weight buffer. I was thinking an H2, but would the spring also need to be replaced with the buffer or will it work with the heavier H2 buffer as is?

Also looking for a muzzle break/comp. Looking hard at the Titan any input on this as well?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by BarryC
Originally Posted by AH64guy

What about buffers that have "shaken loose" the filler weight? IE rattle when shaken? Toss?


I think they are supposed to rattle. The loose weight pounds the forward section home, eliminating bolt bounce. The weight bounces instead of the bolt.


I've heard both sides of the discussion, just looking for the input from the members here...since we are now the topic of buffers.

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Originally Posted by jimmyp
We shot a Stag my friend beat out of a poor fellow using a Keltec Sub2000 the other guy just had to have. We shot it on Presidents day. It shot great but failed to lock back on a Pmag. I am pretty sure its carbine gas, I will tell him to check the buffer to see what is in there.


Did it lock back on other mags? Check it with a couple of different mags, that'll help you trouble shoot what's going on.

If it doesn't lock back on anything, I'd look at the buffer. If it works on everything but that one mag, I'd shrug my shoulders and just not use that mag.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
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Originally Posted by BarryC
Originally Posted by varmintsinc

Also when your setting up a gun you need to know what your source of ammo is going to be. If your counting on over the counter .223 to make it run most of the time you need to be pretty liberal with you gas and know your parts are going to taking a bit more of a beating with 5.56/nato spec ammo. If you keep the gas tight to run the 5.56 be prepared to practice your stove pipe and extraction failures when running .223.


Do you keep a couple different buffers on hand and change them out depending upon what ammo you are using?


I wouldn't. Just find what works for your lightest ammo and run with that.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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If you want to get rid of the ping when you shoot , just change out the Buffer Spring to a Chrome Silicon Spring from Tubbs , works better than going to a heavier buffer in my experience


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Originally Posted by AH64guy
Originally Posted by BarryC
Originally Posted by AH64guy

What about buffers that have "shaken loose" the filler weight? IE rattle when shaken? Toss?


I think they are supposed to rattle. The loose weight pounds the forward section home, eliminating bolt bounce. The weight bounces instead of the bolt.


I've heard both sides of the discussion, just looking for the input from the members here...since we are now the topic of buffers.


I'm not sure who the other side is but if you've ever taken a buffer apart you know the weights are loose and free to slide back and forth.

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