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Several months ago I was diagnosed as having a small hernia requiring repair. Took nearly 5 months to get a date for the operation. Today I received a phone call from the doctors office telling me they have recently been overwhelmed with breast cancer patients requiring operations. Would I consider giving up my scheduled operating room time so one of the breast cancer patients could be treated? I asked how long my surgery might be delayed and they were unable to even give me an estimate.

A little reluctantly I agreed. The reason for my reluctance was that I didn't travel this winter because I didn't know when I might be able to get in to the hospital. Now for all I know my summer may be impacted too.

What swayed my decision was that I have a wife and two daughters and I like to think if they were affected someone might make a similar decision in their favour.

The bottom line is, however, that our system is running so far behind in its ability to look after the population. There is not enough money available from the tax base to change this, we rely on lotteries for funds to cover medical research etc. What will our children be facing in another 10 or 20 years? Comments and opinions please.

Jim

I'm not really sure about a solution, or even a way to ease the problem. We need more hospitals and clinics.

In one respect, I think it's unfair to ask you to give up your place and not be able to provide an alternate date - especially if you've been waiting. I do understand however, if I needed cancer surgery, I would try very hard to get to the head of the line. Having said that, I think they should have to provide you with an acceptable alternative.

I wonder if the provincial government used secondary facilities - clinic sized - for certain surgeries or procedures traditionally performed by hospitals. I hesitate to use the phrase "simple surgeries". Even minor procedures get turn critical quickly. Since I'm not a doctor, I cannot think of a list that might qualify. There have to be procedures that people are going to hospitals for that can be done somewhere else.

Years ago, it was unusual to see groups of doctors in a "medical centre", complete with a pharmacy, lab and physio offices. This is more common now, and is a great way for doctors and pharmacists to reduce their overhead. Perhaps they could expand on the idea - located close to a hospital, in case things go wrong.

Steve,

I don't really have any suggestions myself. I wasn't and am not looking for sympathy as my hernia is not giving me any pain. Other than being careful about any lifting I do my quality of life hasn't been impacted very much.

It was just a case of the circumstances bringing to the front of my thinking the problems existing in our health system. When you do not need medical services it isn't something you think about.

I had hoped some others might chime in with their thoughts.

Jim

I suspect that the speed with which you will receive treatment is directly dependent on the seriousness of what ails you. I was diagnosed with blood-marrow cancer in June of 2011 in a Saskatchewan emergency ward. This occurred after a three hour wait because there appeared to be more serious matters ahead of me. There had been no suggestion of cancer prior to that - everyone was taken by surprise. My family was contacted after I was admitted and told that I was not expected to survive so they'd best come asap. I was admitted that night, further progression of the cancer was halted and I was immediately referred to the local cancer centre - all within about six days as I recall. By September 2012 I'd completed several courses of chemo and received a stem cell transfer. The cancer went into remission. In my experience the treatment is there if you need it. I don't mean by that to minimize your hernia, but I suspect that your case is being carefully managed.

I'm glad that things went well for you, Crabby. It's a terrible thing staring at that.



But I do sympathize with you, Jim, and still believe that they should have provided you with an alternate date.

Crabby might have something though. The urgency of the other person's situation was obviously a concern or they wouldn't have asked.

Having more facilities would ease the backlog, but means the government would need more money. We're squeezed pretty tight by them now. It would be difficult to come up with more cash.

I will point out that it wasn't just the one person I made room for. They said their office had been overwhelmed with breast cancer cases at this time. Obviously I wasn't the only one they contacted with a request to give up operating room time. As said by Crabby it is good to hear that serious cases are given high priority and as a result good treatments are occurring.

I consider myself fortunate to have gone 50 years since the last time I had to go under the knife and this for only a minor matter. Thanks for the comments.

Jim

I wonder about Canadas health care system. We, in the states talk about how bad your health care is. I know a lady that grew up in Manitoba and she said it is not half as bad as the U.S.A. sais it is. It may not be so good in the east side though. How happy are you Canadians with your health care up there?

You will be looked after when really needed. A friend in northern BC mother had a heart attack, went to the local small hospital, they called the air ambulance (cessena citation), she was in Vancouver within 3hrs for treatment, all tax payer funded.
Our friends to the south have been fed allot of propaganda on health care. In Canada the wages are higher (for average folks), taxes are higher, we still live and play like americans, if you want to work you can do very well with out the worry of a disease or accident wiping out your finacials. Ya , could be better in that it takes time for elected surgeries. Like I said to flavour, if you want to see the future , just drive 2 hours north.

That's not what I hear. I know of several folks born in Canada who live in the States....they travel back to Canada for their medical work.

Mostly happy, most of the time. Quality of care has been much like US where I have also lived and been treated. Cost to patient is much lower in Canada. I had a severe multi-year eye disease that began while living in the States and by the time I had worked my way to the top specialists in Seattle, they recommended that I go to a surgeon in Canada. He was the best at treating my condition, and the docs in Seattle changed their treatment of similar patients to fit what he recommended.

OTOH, have abandoned docs on both sides of the border in the course of my lifetime because I had no confidence in them. Regency Blue Shield in the US dropped my health insurance coverage in the early stage of my multi-year disease and my loathing for that company is deep.

It can be slow in Canada but if diagnosed as severe, you usually go to the head of the line. My severe eye problem moved me to the front of the line. OTOH a friend with breast cancer was put on a waiting list so she went to the US. She had been treated and was healed from surgery before she would have gotten her first specialist appointment in Canada. She would probably have been dead by then. She lived another vigorous 9 years after having been given 6 months.

Re giving up your surgery date: When 3 weeks out from my most dicey eye surgery in a series, the surgeon asked if I would give up my operating room reservation to a severe case from Israel if the lady could get visa etc. to get here in time. I gave up my slot, and in the extra month I waited my eye healed far more than any of us anticipated making the surgery much less harzardous to recovering my sight.

Thank you for giving up the slot to somone evidently in greater need. Another anecdote: Six months ago my wife was in severe back pain making her an invalid. She was put on an urgent Canadian waiting list of 3-6 months to get a needed MRI, with no promise of any time frame. We paid a private MRI clinic, made an appointment at 9:00 AM and had it all done with copies in our hand by 3:00 PM, and a doctor's interpretation of the results within 48 hours.

IMO the Canadian system is pretty good but on a trajectory to unsustainability. The US version of socialized medicine is an avalanching disaster getting worse all of the time.

Health care in Canada is only free to the ones without a job and certain ethnics. It is tax funded.

I live in a small town, and it is a struggle to get an appointment with our family practioner. The quality of care is good. To get an MRI, we have to travel 225 miles, but the province of Ontario gives us a travel grant to help defray the costs. Again - that is not free -- it comes in the form of higher taxes.

A O Bush, our health care system was sick pre-Obama care and needed some serious and wide ranging changes. Tort reform was one--liability costs were very high do to a litigious culture. But the lawyer lobby group, the biggest and strongest, put pressure on congress so that went nowhere. Second, allow insurance policies to be "mobile"; that is cross state lines, so a job change doesn't mean losing your present policy which you like. Make these policies competitive in that way. Thirdly, cover pre-existing conditions. And finally, yes, let's devise a program to cover the thirty million uncovered poor, indigent, etc.

This could have been cobbled up in a twenty page bill instead of the "War and Peace" monstrosity that this president and congress unilaterally foisted on us that is going to effect 18% of our economy. It contains over 200,000 regulations and laws as I write. It's not just a health care bill; it's an economy dampening, freedom limiting bill. It will ration care that is much more expensive. My generation and those behind will not get the care my parents generation did if this rolling disaster goes forward.

God-willing, after the 2016 elections, we can rescind it.

Wish all my northern neighbors a great weekend.

George

I guess everyone has an opinion. A friends sisters moved from MT to Alberta. They comment was to never let the Canadian system come to the U.S.

Jim

You're a good and honorable man for doing what you did. I'm glad to know there are people like you on this planet.

AS time goes on and as mentioned we are on the road to unsustainability, the voter will be more demanding of stream lining the process, medi-care is near and dear to Canadian voters. Many times the Doctor is just a prescription writing service. Our system will evolve and improve in efficiency, there is lot of room for that.

I wish I held your optimism.

I have had several health problems,I Thank god for Canadian health care.I would be dead with out it..I think that Americans have been told a lot of B.S about our system,and by people who have health care themselves..

Our system just needs more money...instead of giving every country in the world a leg up, they should invest a little more in us. I waited 4 months for the hernia operation....

And our system needs less red tape for new doctors, I know an american born and trained doctor that married a Canadian, and they made her prove she could speak english before letting her practice [among other things].

I am US Citizen, but had an occasion to experience the Canadian Health are services firsthand. I had a horrific accident while Moose hunting in New Brunswick a couple of years ago. The stand I was in shattered and caused me to fall about 12' and land on my head. I managed to get to the closest hospital 125 miles away. There they Cat scanned my brain, and my neck. Took 25-30 X=Rays and gave me 3 shots. I was there for 4 hours, hands-on treatment. I gave them my insurance card. I was "fearful" of what the cost would be. They billed me $1806 dollars. Hell here in the states, that amount will rarely get you an Aspirin in the ER!

If you fell and damaged your head it's a wonder they didn't make you an honourary citizen so you could pay taxes without questioning them. (Remember this is all tongue in cheek.)

Jim

Or less indian handouts..

Recently two friends of my had health issues, one a irregular heart beat pattern and the other had a blood clot in his calf, one in Vancouver the other resides in Victoria. Both were treated immediately with follow appointments to different specialists. The only complaint was the same for both, since no smoking gun reason for the events being evident, blood tests went on for an extended period, neither missed more than a couple of days of work. Both were very satisfied with their treatment. Rural Canadians would probably have had to travel some to get the same treatment.

Winnipeg is our nearest decent sized medical facilities, and that is 360 km -- 225 miles. We do get a travel grant from the province - usually in about 6 or 8 weeks. Better than a kick in the backside with a frozen mukluk.

I live South of the border and have no personal experience with health care inside Canada.

I have worked with doctors and nurses who trained and worked in Canada. They moved South because they say that their standard of living is better. Higher pay and lower taxes. Also because they are frustrated that Canadians with cancer have a long waiting list to get seen and be treated. Or patients are refused treatments due to age, etc...

As I say, I haven't lived in Canada. Are these still issues for your health care workers?

From my personal experience I cannot complain.
October 7th 2012 I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and had my surgery Dec.28th 2012 so I think my waiting time was not too bad.
As for meds mine cost $ 1500 quarterly and my medical covers every cent.
I also had 33 doses of radiation post operative and that was also covered..

When I was diagnosed with prostate cancer is the US (15 years ago) it took a little over a month between diagnosis and surgery, which was successful.

If you want to look at aggregate objective measures, people with serious diseases like cancer, heart disease etc. live longer on average in the US than they do in Canada.

The US health care system is far from perfect but there are simply far more medical resources available per person in the US to draw on than in Canada.

Canada does spend less money per person on health care though.

the people who are against socializes health care in the U.S already have health care themselves.45000 people a year die in the U.S for lack of health care.If it were not for Canadian heath care I would be dead a long time ago.

our system is not perfect,but it is a hell of a lot better than no heath care,I would be dead except for our health care system

Pre obama care the vast majority of US citizens had health insurance.The rest by law could not be refused care in a emergency room. 45,000 is a bs figure in my book.

our system is not perfect,but it is a hell of a lot better than no heath care,I would be dead except for our health care system

And IMO health care isn't owed to anyone, you have to earn it, just like everything else. The problem governments have gotten involved and skewed the market so bad prices have went sky high.

Life expectancy is longer in Canada and child mortality rate is lower.

Some in the US think that health care has to be earned, as though it is a luxury. Most of the "West" (western Europe, Canada, Brits, Aussies and New Zealand) see it as a right that they demand government support. Many in the US seem to not recognize that every civilized nation supports basic property rights. Only the US continues to stand on the position that health is a property right that the wealthy can withhold from others. Its a question of defining what "freedom" actually means.

The U.S. government spends more on health care per person than the Canadian government, by definition your system is more socialistic than ours.

Which us related to the differences in lifestyle, diet, etc.

Makes perfect sense if your a socialist...

Canadians pay for their health care through taxes. We simply dont allow middle men such as insurance companies to take their pound of flesh. The US system has more services by simply removing 20 percent of the population from the system. Even most Americans who hate Obama care love medicaid (read canadian style government funded medicare) which is simply bizarre. All children everywhere should have a right to health care INHO.
Insurane companies, not government is driving up the price. Everyone knows a windshield replaced by cash costs half as much as an insurance claim.......even in the US.

1. The reason Canadians are happy with their health care is because they're used to the system. If the citizens of the U.S.A. were to participate in such a system there would be a great hue and cry for at least several years but eventually they would get used to it.

2. There was a time when I had a medical condition requiring an expensive medication. At Sam's Club, a months worth was over $400. I got over a 3 month's supply from a Canadian pharmacy for less than $150.

Citizens of the U.S.A. aren't supposed to import medication because allegedly there are quality control issues. I say horse feces. Drug companies take public money for various research and then charge ripoff prices. If the U.S.A. was serious about reducing medical costs they could start by cutting drug companies down to size.

Don't even get me started on the medications marketed that aren't any better than much cheaper ones that are off patent and the "drug shortages" of cheaper medications.

3. It's a myth that the poor can't get health care in the U.S.A. The ones that get ripped off are the ones that have too much income to qualify for Medicaide or other public assistance but not prosperous enough to afford insurance.

For an example, say you have insurance and need a CAT scan. The hospital bills $1,500 but the patient has insurance and an agreement with the insurance company so all that is paid is $500 (this is just a hypothetical example). If the patient has no insurance, they're billed $1,500 and are espected to pay the whole thing. Essentially, the low middle class is subsidizing the health care of the indigent.

4. Then there is malpractice litigation. If there is delay in diagnosis, delay in treatment or just an out of sorts unhappy patient the phsician in the U.S.A. can get sued and the patient may win an exhorbitant sum. It's unlikely a physician will ever be sued for ordering too many tests but if some test for an obscure condition wasn't done and there is a bad outcome, a lawsuit is likely.

As an example, say a person comes in after having bumped their head. They didn't lose consciousness, have no bruising or swelling and have no neurologic deficits. Their chance of having a serious injury is exceedingly small. If though, in the very unlikely event that they died several days later of a brain bleed and didn't have a CT scan, the treating physician will probably get sued.

Tell me, given the choice of writing the order for a CT scan for hundreds of patients who may not need one or potentially going through hours of depositions and waiting for years for a resolution of a lawsuit, do you or do you not think the physician will order the CT scan?

There is the "liberty and justice for all" thing but in our courts, who wins can very well depend on who puts on the best show. In addition, plaintif's attornies want no one on the jury who actually has medical expertise.

5. When those who voted for Obama get a real taste of what he has done to health care, they may wish they hadn't done so. The young and health are going to pay much more for insurance than they had dreamed or they will be fined (a.k.a., taxed) for not having insurance. More companies won't hire full time employees because of the insurance costs in doing so. The elderly, even those to are still very functional, will find out that the health care system won't pay for some services needed to keep them alive.

Be aware, it's really a benefit to the government if the lame and the halt, i.e., those require increased services, die as long as the government doesn't get blamed for it.

I hope the average Canadian lives healthy. Smokes less. Drinks less. Doesn't use illicit drugs. Isn't obese. Etc....

IMO most of the life expectancy and child mortality difference between Canada and South of the border is related to life choices and the fact that we have millions of illegal aliens here.

And large cities full of hood rats.

Your middle man is the government and they are taking their lb of flesh and more. And the % of uninsured is more like 16%. The people that love medicaid are dead beat welfare rats in most cases, so yea they love it.

The data do not show that rising health care costs are due to insurance companies. The majority of Americans get their private healthcare insurance through non-profit healthcare insurers. On average these insurers spend about 10% of premiums to run their companies and perform administrative functions and some are more efficient at about 7 percent. They have a low rate of fraud, roughly one to one and a half percent. If you add it all together that gives about 11 percent for overhead. That means about 89 percent of premiums go to actual care.

If we look at Medicare in the US, the cost of processing claims and membership (done by private insurers contracted by the government) is about three percent. Then you need to add the cost of running CMS (Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services). the cost of the IRS collecting the premiums and the cost of congressional and other government oversight. If you add all this up (the government won't actually supply this number) you get probably something over ten percent. However, Medicare fraud is 1000% higher than in the private sector so you have to add another 15% or so to the 10% admin costs. This gives a conservative total of over 20% administrative costs and fraud/waste. So for Medicare, less than 80% of premiums go to pay for actual care. And Medicare provides a single one size fits all product in contrast to private insurers who provide hundreds of different products.

Thus, Medicare is actually less efficient than non-profit private health insurance and a lower percentage of premiums (and tax dollars) are spent on actual care. I would note that for-profit insurers (Aetna, Cigna, Humana etc.) usually spend a lower percent of premiums on actual care because they spend a lot on advertising. My guess is that costs for Canadian health care are similar to Medicare though I don't have the figures to prove it. I don't doubt that the government will claim greater efficiency by not including all the costs (this is what government health care proponents do in the US, they only include claims and membership costs and don't include the other costs or the fraud) but if you add up ALL the costs it is likely not terribly efficient simply because government programs are rarely efficient.

The percent of premiums spent on actual care by private insurers has remained relatively constant over the last few decades while the cost of healthcare has increased dramatically. The reason is that the cost of care itself has increased. A major reason for this is that many things are possible now due to new technology that couldn't be done thirty years ago. Innovation in medicine costs lots of money and so all these new treatments and technology drive up the cost of health care. Defensive medicine and other factors also contribute but I don't think they are the primary drivers of health care inflation.

Finally, much (but not all) of innovation in medicine worldwide comes from the US. We in the US pay the bill for much of medical innovation that then gets used in other countries. This is a major reason why drugs cost less in Canada and other countries. Most new drugs come from the US and due to patent laws, this cost is mostly borne by US consumers who in effect subsidize other countries that charge less for the drugs.

It's all quite complicated but just saying that health care is expensive because of insurance companies is inaccurate.

Penicillin was disscovered in Scotland, insulin in Canada. A terrific American helped save thousands from polio. The first heart transplant was done in south Africa. Many wonderful drugs like asperine are based on traditional medine. Of course Bayer is German. From here itlooks like today American sience is focussed on hair loss and erectal dissfunction. Everyone has contributed much.
Just sayin.

The anecdotal evidence you cite is true and as I acknowledged, medical innovations do come from everywhere. Nevertheless, looking at aggregate numbers for new drugs, a lot are coming from the US.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/11/30/where-do-new-drugs-come-from-u-s-biotechs-lead-the-way/

That was really a side comment anyway. My main point was about the role (or lack thereof) of insurance companies in health care inflation.

Yes, but the first baboon to human heart transplant was done in California.

But where was the first baboon to white house trsnsplant done?

Need a liberl application of spell check here. Whoa!
Makes for tough reading. Let me assist you.

We don't begrudge you your system. The biggest objection we have in the US against a 1 payer system is 1.) being forced into paying for somebody else and 2.) the inevitable rationing and loss of choice.

Our laws and our legal system is different from yours. You have caps on liability claims. Ottawa had sense enough to put forth tort limits on drugs and Health Care providers to contain costs. That will never happen here. You also don't have a flood of of poor and indigent immigrants from Latin America that are being taught how to suck off the system. We do.

I should also mention two other factors that are driving up the cost of Health Care in the US. First, is Medicare, which reimburses only about 60% of the cost of providing a procedure. That forces providers to shift fees over to non-Medicare procedures to make up for that every increasing 40% loss. Lastly, in the US, some 70% of all Health Care costs are channelled into the last 24 months of life. We will do extraordinary measures to extend life 1 day in many cases.

I am 66 years into a reasonably healthy life. I have absolutely no complaining to do about our health care, at least here in Saskatchewan. NO COMPLAINTS.

What I see as a problem is the Emergency waiting rooms in the cities (Regina is my only experience) being packed with people who don't seem to have an "emergency" health problem.

Sadly, too many lefties seem to resist the idea of allowing private health care to operate. A First Nation offered to put in an MRI service and operate it privately. My goodness, you would have thought they had offered to kill people for a fee! All the racists and socialists threw up such a clamour that the idea went by the wayside. I guess it is much better to fly out of province to receive a timely MRI.

Go figure. All in all, we have good care given to us, at least here in former left wing socialist Saskatchewan. Of course, the good NDP hacks push up to the front to take all the credit.

Rectal dysfunction can be a chitty issue.

More taxes are spent on health care in the USA than in Canada.
Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations� budgets. In the United States, the various levels of government spend more per capita on health care than levels of government do in Canada. In 2004, Canada government-spending was $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government-spending $2,724.[68]

A 1999 report found that after exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0% of health care expenditures in the United States, as compared with 16.7% of health care expenditures in Canada. In looking at the insurance element, in Canada, the provincial single-payer insurance system operated with overheads of 1.3%, comparing favourably with private insurance overheads (13.2%), U.S. private insurance overheads (11.7%) and U.S. Medicare and Medicaid program overheads (3.6% and 6.8% respectively). The report concluded by observing that gap between U.S. and Canadian spending on health care administration had grown to $752 per capita and that a large sum might be saved in the United States if the U.S. implemented a Canadian-style health care system.[69]

However, U.S. government spending covers less than half of all health care costs. Private spending for health care is also far greater in the U.S. than in Canada. In Canada, an average of $917 was spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the U.S., this sum is $3,372.[68] In 2006, health care consumed 15.3% of U.S. annual GDP. In Canada, only 10% of GDP was spent on health care.[5] This difference is a relatively recent development. In 1971 the nations were much closer, with Canada spending 7.1% of GDP on health while the U.S. spent 7.6%.[citation needed]

Some who advocate against greater government involvement in health care have asserted that the difference in health care costs between the two nations is partially explained by the differences in their demographics.[70] Illegal immigrants, more prevalent in the U.S. than in Canada,[citation needed] also add a burden to the health care system, as many of them do not carry health insurance and rely on emergency rooms � which are legally required to treat them under EMTALA � as a principal source of care.[71] In Colorado, for example, an estimated 80% of illegal immigrants do not have health insurance.[71]

The mixed system in the United States has become more similar to the Canadian system. In recent decades, managed care has become prevalent in the United States, with some 90% of privately insured Americans belonging to plans with some form of managed care.[72] In managed care, insurance companies control patients' health care to reduce costs, for instance by demanding a second opinion prior to some expensive treatments or by denying coverage for treatments not considered worth their cost.

Administrative costs for health care are also higher in the United States than in Canada.[7

After waiting 8 months for a hip replacement I spent a lot of money went to Thailand and got it done. I'd probably be still waiting and homeless living in a dumpster and eating garbage if I had waited on Canada's screwed up system to help me.

I get Canadians being proud of your system. However, with all due respect the quality isn't there.
However, with Obama care we are in a race to the bottom.

The lucky few.

The figures you are quoting are mostly baloney. The "report" you list is obviously by someone with an agenda using selective statistics. I can't imagine how they calculated a 31% admin overhead for healthcare in the US unless they are looking at the Veterans Administration which is run by the government. The US does spend more on healthcare than Canada because people have the freedom to get the care they want. This may not always be the most efficient but that is what people want. In Canada you get what the government thinks you need. If you look at people with serious medical problems (cancer, heart disease etc.) people live considerably longer on average with these conditions in the US than they do in Canada.

My earlier post debunks much of what you list. The overhead for government run healthcare is far higher than in the private sector but governments are good at obfuscating the real costs. You're citing incomplete government statistics designed to make the government look good.

Our system has failed my family and I badly. I personally pay much more into the system than most Americans would ever dream of. I live in southern Ontario which is the most densely populated area of Canada.

Our family Doctor retired 2 years ago and we have been on a waiting list since then to have a new one assigned(referred?) to us -no end in sight for that. That means basically the only way for us to access the system is through the emergency room, which involves a 7 to 9 hour wait to see a physician in our locale. Sometimes its faster but I would say that is a good honest average based on my experience.

This is the tip of the iceberg. In the last 2 years we have had:

a newborn daughter that was severerely damaged by the delivery doctor (or his intern-we don't know which)... no apology, no blame laid- just "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out"

My wife having to endure several extremely painful ruptured cysts in her ovary's without a referral to a Gyno to see what the problem is.

A 9 hour wait in emergency for me to get a prescription for a guardia infection I picked up on a grizzly hunt in BC.

My 2 year supply of blood pressure meds that our old Family doctor gave me prescriptions for is about to be finished- The pharmacist tells me I have to get a prescription before I can get more. I'm sure this will lead to another 7 to 9 hour wait for me- to get a prescription- I'm semi worried that whatever emergency room doc I end up with will probably only give me a 30 day scrip- that will necessitate me repeating the process all over again next month...

These are what come to the top of my head- I'm sure there's more if I sit and think about it for a while....

Our system is broken, badly.

Could anyone put up a time line on Canadian health care over the years?
How did it get to this point?

I don't think that would be worthwhile because things vary so much geographically. I haven't lived in Canada for a while but when I did I moved around a LOT and some areas had MUCH better medical care than others (including waiting times).

I suspect the amount of variation geographically may have stayed the same or even increased in recent years though. For example, in the past 2 years friends and relatives in Canada (Southern and Central Ontario; Manitoba (near Winnipeg) have needed:

1) one MRI had to wait a week but meeting the doctor and initial Xrays were the same day

2 another MRI had to wait 2 weeks but was for a knee problem so clearly not life-threatening

3) a complete knee replacement (just a 2 month wait after diagnosis -- I expected the wait to be much longer in Central Ontario but evidently a lot of medical practitioners wanted to get out of Toronto, but be within a morning's drive, so even small centres seemed to have no problem attracting doctors -- in contrast to, say, Temagami perhaps)

4) kidney stone shockwave lithotripsy (4 weeks but could have been done within 2 weeks if he had been willing to go to a different hospital which was a 2 hour drive away).

5) I also know of one elderly lady whose doctor retired, and she had to make use of the Emergency Room for 6 months until she got a regular doctor again (as noted above). During this time, she had to wait 6 hours to see a doctor just to get her blood pressure checked and prescription refilled.

6) dermatologist: 5 months wait for a fairly severe cosmetic problem on the face, but Winnipeg lacked dermatologists for some reason). This was a teenager, and this delay was the worst of these six in my opinion. Not life-threatening, but teenagers can be so cruel -- and I suspect they were.

John

I'm only 41 so I cant offer as complete a timeline as some of our more ahem "experienced" posters.

But as far as emergency room waits I can remember in high school going to the emergency room meant a four hour wait for sure...

There has been a bit of a stink going on in Ontario about wait times lately so the "health minister" has been publishing some figures lately:
- "90 per cent of patients who need to be admitted are checked into a bed in 27.9 hours or less".... their own published target is 12.2 hrs. Yay! Only 28 hrs to get admitted to a bed for acute care. AND don't overlook the fact that this is only 90%- one in ten poor bastard that is looking at some indeterminate amount of time to get that bed. 2 days-3 days? on a chair or the floor of the emergency room...?

-"In 2009, Canada had 1.7 acute-care beds for every 1,000 Canadians, putting it second last in a ranking of 34 OECD countries. The OECD average is 3.4 beds per 1,000."
Yay again! We are doing great there. I'm not exactly sure who we beat but china, india, indonisia, malaysia are all OECD countries- so all of them are kicking our ass but 1....

That's what my 5 minute google search turned up regarding emergency wait times anyways... which closely matches with my own first hand experience. I don't believe for a minute that real world wait times are anything close to what the .GOV publishes... You KNOW that those statistics are massaged very-very hard by about 5 levels of bureaucracy before they are released to the unwashed masses like me.

Pay very careful attention to this comment by 378canuck. It sums up our system very well

"After waiting 8 months for a hip replacement I spent a lot of money went to Thailand and got it done. I'd probably be still waiting and homeless living in a dumpster and eating garbage if I had waited on Canada's screwed up system to help me"

Phugging Thailand is a better option for healthcare than our system... it not like Thailand is known the world over for its cutting edge medical system and great standard of living- This saddens me soo much

This exactly mirrors my experience with OHIP. Ask him (or me) how much he has contributed into the health care system- the answer will shock any americans... I guaranteeeee it.

I have had health problems most of my life,some very serious,if not for our health care,I would have been dead a long time ago..

To all the Canadians, how many of you know someone (or several people) who have had a procedure done in the U.S. because Canadian wait times were so long?

(me - at least three people)

In my opinion alot more people are dead BECAUSE of our system than despite it.

My opinion is very biased based on my recent experiences but there are huge issues that any thinking person should be able to see.

How much does it cost for an emergency room visit?

How much does it cost to get a vaccination at your dr's office( if you are lucky enough to have one)

How much of my paycheck sinks into the bottomless pit of healthcare? 10% 40%?

How is it that when I go into any hospital I can see a group of 5 or 6 nurses chatting about the days events? Who's in charge?

Why are people waiting a year or more for a MRI? I can drive to buffalo and get one tomorrow. It costs $465 in the horrible american system that draws gasp of horror when mentioned here north of the border.

Why can't I get a second opinion on whats wrong with me or my loved ones if I don't agree with a diagnosis here.

Why do I see signs for "emergency room service in 15minutes or less" as I drive down I75 when I know I'm in for a 7-9HOUR wait if I go to my local hospital?

Why do I have friends that are suffering for years with bad knee's and hips before they can get replacements. Some of them are literally dying before my eyes due to bad knee's. One friend who used to be very active can barely walk some days, so he doesn't, but he still eats so he has put on 50lbs in the last 2 years now his knees are under more pressure from the extra weight, he is in constant pain so he has a never ending supply of opiates (OXY-codeine I think). Now he has blood sugar problems too- no doubt because of his weight gain, but he can't/won't exercise because of his knee pain. I have told him over and over again to just go get it done somewhere/anywhere. Who cares what is costs- he's going to die from it if he doesn't get it done...but he still waits for our system that he has so much faith in... he's 60. He's worked his whole life as a machinist/tool and die maker (a damn good one too!) How much has he paid into the system over the years just to have it kill him over a knee replacement?

The nurses and doctors unions are way stronger and more opaque than any other public sector union- I hear people bitching about teachers all the time but nary a word about nurses or dr's. Do you think that there is any kind of repercussions for being a substandard DR? Do you think that there is ever a review of their skills or abilities?

If they are making you sit in emergency for 8-9 hours they obviously don't think your an emergency case. That is how they get you to quit coming.

Don't you have a health clinic you could go to? Or a public health nurse office?

You shouldn't be going to an emergency room for a prescription...that is crazy.

Agreed, I wasn't an emergency, I had giardia last time I was there...I realize it wont kill me but I damn sure wasn't leaving there until I had a prescription (anyone who has had it will understand)

Just to be clear I'm not dragging my ass in there every weekend. I've been to emerg for myself twice in my whole life. My upcoming prescription filler will be #3

Public health nurse? A quick google check shows me we have one office in our county and they will: give imunizations, help you quit smoking and anonymously check for STD's. I don't need any of those services.

We do have 2 clinics in town- One you can only attend if you are a patient of the 7 family doctors that run it.
The other one is open to the general public from 5-8 on tuesdays and thursdays. My wife has been to it (I never have) she said that people start to line up outside the doors at 3:00 to try and get in. They only allow so many people in and then close the doors... I'm not sure how long she had to wait there (for sure less than the emerg).... If you can get there and get in line at 3, on a tuesday or a thursday... I however have to go to work, to pay my taxes, to support our medical system

I agree it is absolutely crazy to have to go to emerg to renew a blood pressure prescription.... I haven't done it yet but what other choice do I have really?

I live about 2 hrs from the border crossing in buffalo- I've been seriously toying with the idea of driving down there and paying some american DR. his $50 (100? I have no idea what it would cost really) to write me a prescription.

Sounds to me like Canadian health care is just great unless you have a medical problem.

We see a lot of Canadians come down to the Cleveland Clinic, one of the finest hospital systems in the world. They advertise that you can get an appointment with a doctor the same day you call.

A month ago a doctor prescribed an MRI for me. I got it the next morning. The only delay was because I was busy the first afternoon.

By the way, with Medicare and the supplements this cost me nothing.

I worked in the health care field in the Upper Midwest ( MN, the Dakotas, Wisconsin, Iowa and U.P. of Michigan) for many years...in cardiology....

at the time, 50 per cent of the patients at the hospitals in North Dakota, Northern MN and the U.P. of Michigan for cardiology needs were from Canada...

They needed procedures within 3 to 6 months, or they were told they wouldn't survive... and the waiting lists in Canada were 18 months or so... these pour Canucks would have to come across the border or die... their Canadian Health Insurance wouldn't pay for it.. and since they were from out of the country and the Hospitals had no way to collect if they skipped out on paying the bill, they made them pay in advance for the procedures, although they got nice discounts for doing so...

I really felt sorry for many of those Canadians put into that position.....

I also worked in Canada for a Canadian Company for several years, covering AB and BC, along with the Yukon and NW Territories.. and the US side of the border also....

My health care insurance was paid for by the company, who said it was very reasonable...however the rep based in Southern California, his health care insurance with CALIF rates cost as much as the rest of the sales force on the American side of the border....

I preferred the American Health Care, but exposure to Canadian Health Care, made me know Obama Care was a BAD idea long before it ever got passed by a Legislative Branch that never even read the 1100 page bill before passing it...

Then there is the issue of Canada's best and brightest practicing in the US where they can make more money.

Sea fire is right BTW. I live in Marquette, MI area and the local hospital has a fair number of Canadian patients. Ditto with the university of MI Hospital, Mayo Clinic, etc.

Very good point, and it is not just limited to Doctors.. plenty of Nurses, Physical Therapists etc...

I wouldn't be surprised if half of the Canadian born and educated medical personnel don't practice on the US side of the border, being able to make so much more money...

I remember back ( but not the years ) when ALL the Doctors in BC went on strike, to make more... complaining they were not making enough... and as I remember the figures they were talking about on the CBC it was pretty darn pitiful what these guys were getting paid...

Yes. It must be tough trying to make ends meet on a half a million bucks a year.

Well Keith, I hear ya.. but a lot of folks don't always understand what costs doctors have to deal with... I'm going back to the late 80s... I knew a Cardiologist at St Luke's down in Kansas City, a big Cardiology Dept, doing cutting edge new procedures etc....

This Doctor had never been sued for malpractice....however he told me for him to open his doors on Jan 2, he had to pay his insurance up front in full by Jan 1. That figure was $800,000 bucks ( American) before he could open his doors at 8 AM on Jan 2nd....cash on the barrel...

Also in the 1990s, according to the IRS, the Average American Physician claimed approximately 1/3 of his gross receipts as uncollected debt annually.. medical claims not paid, because 'the paper work wasn't right' according to the insurance company... or just people not paying their bill and it was uncollectable...

Especially under Obama Care there is a reason a lot of physicians on our side of the border, are looking to retire, go into Administration etc... and as was said, half of Canada's doctors have migrated to this side of the border....gotta be a reason for that...can't be because they will make less money down here...

You would be surprised to know how many die in waiting room while others with coughs go first. I cut my finger and had a big puddle of blood on the floor in waiting room but 10 went ahead with flu symtoms.

Is it not enough money, or not enough doctors?

After many years of traveling and working extensively in Canada, I have yet to hear the first Canadian say that, even with all its challenges, they wish they had our health care system.

Before moving to Canada I used to say " An apple a day keeps the doctor away " , but after experiencing the health care system here I find that a bacon sandwich works better.