Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Large Cat Caliber

thats cause lions and people generally cant share the same territory cause lions have a nasty habit of eating livestock and people.....while leopards will also become man eaters at times its much less common and they are alot like our coyotes in that they can live within a city, hell every city south of the Sahara likely has leopards living in it....lions need true wild country preferably well removed from people and thats getting rarer and rarer in todays Africa...

there are also a couple diseases playing havoc on lions in true wild country which isnt helping....

No offense but I took a long look at the AR "platform" (?!) many years ago when I was wearing green uniforms every day and Uncle Sam cut my paychecks and bought the guns and the ammo. I wasn't so impressed (neither was my dear old Dad in '68 in SE Asia), but I was a rifleman before I enlisted and he was too.

As for the 50 Beowolf it's throwing a 400 gr. bullet at what, under 1900 fps? The Socom gets out a 300 gr. @ 1900 and a 405 gr. @ 1600 or so??
Come on man, that doesn't approach the "HP" for my intended need.

We're discussing .375H&H/Ruger, driving a 270 gr. @ 2700+, the .458WM sending a 300 gr. @ 2600, a 400 gr. @ 2500, a 500 gr. @ 2200+.
My numbers are close there.
.416 launches a 400 gr. at what, 2500?

I understand a whole generation of new shooters have no exposure beyond the AR "platform", but there exists a whole shooting world out there that AR land can't begin to approach.

So no, those chamberings aren't even close, I can beat that with my old 45-70.

J


And no offense intended, I'm glad we have a few million shooters who just adore the AR, they'll hopefully stay for life, support the 2nd Amendment cause. Just don't assume that the AR is the answer to every firearm question, it isn't.

FWIW, in Terry Wieland's book Dangerous Game rifles he states the preferred lion caliber is .416 based on his and other PH's experience. Having no experience myself with lions, I suppose I would defer to his opinion. Having said that probably either the .416 Ruger or the .375 Ruger would work well and my choice of either if I wanted a new gun would probably come down to what I already had in the safe.

Man there are so few .416's on the market compared to .375's. I'd rather buy used from a private party, but my brother is a long time ffl dealer so I can get a break on new rifles. I just enjoy the quality of older guns, maybe my misconception, maybe not.
I'll have to do some looking, and price reloading components.

I'd like to hear from someone that knows personally that the .416's are quite a bit more effective than the .375's.

I'll look into Mr. Wieland's book.

J

The best advice is read this: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911

One thing to remember if you do need to shoot a lion it's going to be just you and the loin. Not you the loin and your PH with more than likely a double big bore rifle to back you up, if things go bad.

My advice would to find a 458 WM Winchester Model 70 CRF cut the barrel to 20" and load it with some CEB 258 GR. bullets. Remember it's not just the caliber of a gun but the bullet it delivers.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=FB_S258_RAPTOR

Two PHs I had the pleasure of shooting the breeze with both said the .416, either Rigby or Remington, is their recommendation for lions.

Any quick expanding bullet at a high velocity is devastating on any cat. The 200gr GSC from my .375H&H doing around 3200fps is one of the quickest that I have seen a cat expire from a quartering towards lung shot.

The 1900s British solution to big cats was the 416 Rigby. True, a Lion is only a 400-500lb animal, but DRT when Lion hunting is a blessing. Anyway, they considered the 416 Rigby "The Cat's Meow" when it came to the Lion hunting. (sorry!)

Good...

Now buy my Ruger Hawkeye African I have here in the classifieds.

It's hard to beat a 375 Ruger/H&H.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ger_Hawkeye_African_375_PHOT#Post8723447

35 Whelen 250gr NP

Lets face it at 100 yards 375 H&H 300gr very soft round nose...at 50 yards 416 Rigby 400gr soft...At 25 yards 470NE double with 2) 500gr softs in rapid concession @ 10 yards run like hell! Problem solved ...you need 3 new rifles and 2 gun bearers. Preferably two guys that you could out run.

I did read it, I've been aware since my pre teen years that it's a compilation of correct bullet construction, in the correct diameter, at the correct velocity. Whatever the particular named cartridge is.

And I'm well aware that on the one in a 3 or 8 million chance I use the rifle to defend the homestead, the kids, and the close by neighbors (who all have young children who play outside)there will be no "professional hunter group" armed with multiple fine old 470 double guns to back poor old me up. At best my Lovely Bride with a 12 ga 580 loaded with (8)Brenneke Black magic's.

That's got me looking at .411 and .375 Hawk based on capacity. Formed on the grand old 30-06 case and sending a 260 gr, Nosler Partition at 2600 fps (in .375). 200 fps slower than the great old H&H. But standard mag capacity and with the (aparantly) reliable Wyatt's conversion to detachable box magazines, 10 rounds in the mag.

The tigers are in enclosures of from 3 to 10 each. So a failure of the chain link could concievably mean more than one large feline out. More than a standard 3 round capacity .375 Ruger would be mo better in my humble opinion.

My opinion is subject to change tho : )

J

I've been looking pretty much at the 260 gr. NP because it always opens up. But I'll look close at that bullet. 3200 is cooking right along.
Thank you.

J

Your choice of the .375 Ruger and a 260 NP is a good one. I have taken both lion and leopard in recent years. The leopard was a DRT one shot kill with a .338 Winchester loaded with a 225 NP at ~2,850 fps. The lion was shot with a .416 Rigby loaded with a 400 grain A-Frame. The A-Frame zipped straight on through with no apparent expansion and resulted in an "exciting" followup. I would have been better served with your .375 Ruger and a 260 NP, as you noted for the first shot.

For followup of a wounded cat, a .470 or .500 N.E loaded with Woodleigh softs in a well fitted, quick handling double is what you need.

saj I've looked soooo close at .35 Whelen, and .375 Whelen, .375 Whelan Improved, .375 Hawk, .411 Hawk. Based on the ability to carry more rounds in the gun compared to a big .375 round. And I have several '06 based rifles on hand.

All of the '06 based mid bores are all capable cartridges but I'm seriously thinking .375 Hawk, a version of .375-06 with the best velocity using 260 gr. NP. I may be stuck in the '80's but I love the old school NP fast expansion and that seems to be the ticket on large felines.

J

Right Wild Bill,
Maybe a belt fed M2 Browning MG. Just a little short of gun bearers around here but it would fill the bill nicely. Every Ma Duece I've carried wouldn't be so user friendly around my little compound.
Don't care to outrun my children in a life threatening environment, let them run for cover and I'll be the cat food if need be : )

J

Thanks for that.

I would be hoping to avoid the more "exciting" aspects on the very off chance I had to use the gun on cats.
My limited research leans solidly toward the Nosler Partition as a "always, always, always" fast opening bullet with some penetration remaining in the back end.

the old school NP has never failed me but I've never shot a big cat either.

Feel free to correct me on bullet preference but for now I'm thinking NP.

J

Here you go,
CDNN has 20" Alaskan 375's or 416's for $699, Stainless Lam stock 23" 375's for $699, LEFT HAND 20" stainless lam stock for $699 and 23" blue/wood 375 africans for $699. No brakes on any of them. Great price for what is probably the last of these models.

A .30/06 (or .300 mag) is more than enough for a first shot on a leopard. They can be killed with a well placed shot from most deer rifles with a quick expanding bullet, such as a NP or Woodleigh soft. I have a friend who is a retired PH. His "client rifle" was a .35 Whelen loaded with green box garden variety Remington softs and he swears by that combo as a leopard rifle. Another friend recently killed a very large mountain lion with one shot from a 9.3x 62 loaded with a 286 Barnes TSX. He said it was boom, plop. DRT. BTW, he killed his leopard a few years before with a single close range shot from a 9.3x 74 double. They were tracking the cat with dogs and the dogs failed to locate the cat, which was a few yards away behind a bush.

A lion can also be killed with a well placed shot from a .30/06 (where legal). However, having successfully hunted (and followed up) a lion, IMO, your .375 Ruger with a 260 NP is a better choice. Or a .375 H&H with the same bullet. Woodleigh makes an excellent soft that I would not hesitate to use for a first shot on a big cat.

Don't worry about magazine capacity too much. The odds are a leopard will either drop at the first shot or run off. You are unlikely to have time for a second shot at a leopard, much less a third. But I suppose it could happen.

You are more likely to get a second or a third shot off at a lion.

However, for followup on a wounded leopard or lion, a large bore double is, IMO, the best choice by far.

Just out of curiosity, where and when are you going cat hunting?

If you read the thread (I know, it's long), you'll get where I'm coming from. Not really any hunting involved. This is just the best place I know of to put it for real world input.

Mainly a new to me mid-big bore caliber to work with, in a rifle that can do double duty just in the odd case. And like I said, the adult tigers live in groups of 3-10, so magazine capacity really does matter to me.

J