Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Large Cat Caliber

A question for those with experience, the more the better.
Concerning a rifle for use in case of escaped big cats at expected ranges of 100 yards and less, in the U.S.
By an experienced shooter/hunter/handloader.

Any caliber preference between .375 H&H (or Ruger) and .458WM?

Based on my research (to date) I'm leaning pretty heavily right now toward .375 Ruger, 260 gr. Nosler Partition.
In a relatively short barrel rifle such as the Ruger Guide Gun but I'm watching the used market for .375 H&H, .416 and .458WM.
Weight is no concern to me but short/handy is.

The rifle will see quite a bit of practice and range time.

Basically I'm adding a rifle, in a caliber I don't have and want it to be close to ideal for main purpose mentioned, all else would be of secondary importance.

John

The 375Ruger (or H&H) is an EXCELLENT choice for the big cats. That 375 caliber accounts for more lions than probably all the rest combined. Your choice of the Guide Gun or to my mind even better, the Alaskan Model is an excellent one. Short, fast handling barrel, stainless, controlled round feeding and a 3 position safety pretty much defines a close quarters big game rifle. I have the 375 and 416 Alaskans and while the 416 was my first choice for buff and ele, my 375 would be the "go to" if I lived next to some sort of big cat sanctuary. You also need to give serious consideration to your sight selection with great consideration given to close range and low light conditions. I would look very hard at scopes that will give a true 1x for close range both eyes open shooting and that have an illuminated center dot for FAST low light shooting. After taking my first cape buff in low light with standard crosshairs I quickly switched to a Trijicon 1-4 with the post and green triangle. It has both fiber optic coils and tritium in the center. That coupled with crystal clear glass makes for an outstanding dangerous game sight for all circumstances. Good luck and hopefully you will never need it!

since the cats are the only dangerous game truly susceptible to shock ild go with the faster 375 over the slower but heavier 458....

Where and why would you be anticipating big cat "escapes" in the USA? African lions??

actually been a couple of incidents in the last few years......that one guy turned loose a bunch of tigers and such before committing suicide.....

I'm pretty sure I never used the word "anticipate".

J

"in case" then. Semantics aside, honest question on my part. Care to elaborate?

Sounds like as good of an excuse as any for buying a DG rifle.

They still use .303 British for tiger in India, just saying.

I once lived near a women that had a "pet" tiger. She was an eccentric women that lived on a small plot off land that was largely wooded. She was nice and the tiger appeared nice, she introduced me to it once.

What I didn't ever tell her was that I had my 375 loaded with 5 300 grain trophy bonded bear claws. I regret selling that gun.

That said the question I would ask would be what kind of shooting would you be doing in a honest scenario like that. It would likely be defensive or chasing a wounded (by a handgun most likely) game animal. So maybe a bolt action 375 wouldn't really be best? Perhaps then a ten gauge would be better, especially for a smaller large cat.

As far as anticipating escapes that would depend on your area, I don't anticipate any trouble from large dangerous game animals, however defense from pit-bulls and meth zombies is more likely.

Get a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. It holds eight in the magazine and one up the pipe. Load it with a 480 to 500 grain flatnosed cast bullet at 1250 to 1400 fps, and you are in business in a big way. It will shoot through and through any cat on the planet from any angle and solve the problem.

Going after a big cat, I would prefer my Cowboy Marlin 45-70 over my 375 H&H bolt gun, hands down. Works for pit bulls and meth zombies too.

Full disclosure, I have never taken a big cat but plenty of my friends have and I have spoken with and read accounts of numerous Professional Hunters. The conventional wisdom is cats are very sensitive to high velocity calibers (and properly constructed bullets to match). There is also a big difference between a leopard and a lion. For me, speed kills baby so a 300 for leopard and a 375 for lion as fast as I can push them would be my recommendation.

For the OP's purpose, I once heard that was why a guy wanted a .480 Ruger in a revolver for "next time".

This will DRT any cat that has or will walk this earth.

50 B&M Super Short with a Cutting Edge Bullet 350 gr. at 2345 fps. three in the magazine plus one in the tube.




It started out as a Winchester 25 WSSM CRF, I take 325 WSM brass cut to 1.65" 51 gr. of Lil'Gun.

My wifes uncle killed a leapord with a .410 shotgun many years ago that had escaped the Jackson Ms zoo and had been wounded by the night watchman. They tried several times to catch it with a net but had to "put it down".
Probably not the best choice but at point blank, .410 and birdshot worked..

Terry Thompson of Zanesville, Ohio. GUNS magazine did an excellent after action report.

On the surface, it just seemed to be a strange question. That's why I'm asking for additional clarification. For all I know, the guy could be living near one of those big cat rescue type centers. Or next to the zoo.... or perhaps the circus comes to town quit often?

410? Damn!!

yep, borrowed one from somebody that lived next to the zoo. Used some size birdshot.. Wish I couldd dig up that article with the pics..

Classic choice is a 405 Winchester 1895. Teddy Roosevelt and Kenneth Anderson can't be wrong.

thinkit was our swedeish member that said an elephant got loose in his AO and given he figured he had the only "elephant gun" in the area went and offered his help to his local law enforcement and was terribly disappointed when they turned him down

A Ruger Alaskan or guide gun, with 20" barrel and in .416 Ruger, would be ideal.

In case you decide to shoot an escaped feline, worth many tens of thousands of dollars, and don't want to put up with the endless lawsuits and public condemnation for your actions, it is easier to turn the short barrel around and put in your mouth.

I'd really rather just ask the question. But when I did I knew it left a lot of room for speculation like: first post by a paranoid whacko. Or a 12 year year old.

I was really hoping to get comparative insite from people who have seen firsthand the effect of the bigger/slower vs mid bore/faster on lion.

About 5 miles from my little 30 rural acres are about 20 adult tigers, one african lion, quite a few cougars, leopards & wolfs. All behind chain link put up by amateur labor. In a canyon susceptible to flash flooding every 10 years or so. At feeding time you can watch the tigers jump high enough that their heads are above the fence.
My two young daughters play outside all day and I work outside on the property most days. I always have a firearm(s) close by just on principle, and because we're in prime cougar country, every once in a while one will kill dogs in the area or lay tracks down my drive. Plus our coyote population is out of control and city folks sometimes drive to the country and let their dogs run wild.

These guys claim 266 escapes in the U.S. since 1990:
http://bigcatrescue.org/big-cat-attacks/

Given that, and the fact that I'm going to buy another rifle anyway, it just makes sense to me to make it a suitable big cat caliber instead of a .220 Swift : )
But no I'm not expecting to be invaded by either the zombies nor the escaped captive tigers. I never expected to be inside a burning building, till one morning I was : )

J

i need more info on this, that looks like a cool project...500 or .510 bullets?

I've seriously considered a short Marlin. I handload heavy 45-70's for a Ruger #1 ao have the dies and the components.
Maybe a soft 350 gr. as fast as I could reliably drive it, just my thinking.

But what research I've done seems to fall square on the .375 bore as being the most effective. And I don't have a .375, and kind of want one.

I may end up going Marlin though.

J

I remember Ross Seyfried writing an introduction for the .378 Weatherby in one of the Nosler manuals about this very thing.

He said it left "chunks of lion clockwork..."

I too would enjoy seeing more information on that thing.

J

JTMcC, thanks for fielding my question and elaborating on the context. It gives it a little more clarity. I can definitely see your concern living near a big cat "sanctuary".

My personal limited experience with lions is that the .375 H&H loaded with a premium soft puts them down quickly, as long as the rifleman does their part.

At 15 yards, a 300 gr Partition from a 375 handload @ 2475 f/s (between the front legs at the base of the mane) knocked an adult male lion down seemingly with authority. But, he got right back up and crawled another 20 yards or so away from us. I kept shooting 'til the mag was dry, but the additional 3 rounds were likely unnecessary. A sample of one.

But having that experience, and having used a 416 Rigby on other large game, I'd be inclined to go with the 416, provided the shooter can handle it. 416 level recoil is a significant step up from a 375, IMHO.

IIRC, Harry Selby thought the Rigby was the ultimate cartridge for lion, in his considerable experience. Hard to beat that kind of recommendation.

Pete

Certainly not a expert but I would tend to agree with the 375 and not use a premium bullet. A-Square used to make a 300gr lion designed bullet. It was a very destructive fast expanding round nose soft. The other that I have read a lot about is the 250gr Sierra which is also soft and opens quickly.

My understanding is you want a bullet that is going to open real fast and dump all the energy inside the cat without exciting. Just the opposite of what premium bullets are designed for.

If you want a 375 buy one. It is an awesome cartridge with a fair amount of excellent bullets available.

I'll go out on the proverbial limb here, and assume that's sarcasm.

If not and maybe even if it is, I'll add that to my limited understanding, the (hundreds of USDA licensed) big cat "sanctuaries" are full up because there is little monetary value in adult felines in the U.S.
Cute little ones are in high demand, for some reason people love to have their picture taken with young tigers, go figure.
Reach maturity, as a tiger in the U.S., and you have little to look forward too. So, we have all of these "rescue" operations.
Add the wealthy jerks who want a cub as a pet but can't deal with the adolescent felines deadly nature.
It's evidently the same in wolf land. Seems like a great idea, then goes south. Look for a rescue operation to bail them out.
The one local to me holds fundraisers fairly often, just to pay for the large amount of feed they go through. Admission prices are also high. They go thru a lot of meat in a month.
So even with my weak understanding of commercial tiger pricing I'm pretty sure that if they could sell one for "many tens of thousands of dollars", they wouldn't be regularly begging for money to feed those tremendous cats.

And like most here I recon, anything threatening the life of me and mine, is subject to lethal intervention. In my part of the world there would be public aclaim, no condemnation and when the Little Ones are in danger, I fear no lawsuit.
There are things worth killing for, worth dying for, and worth doing prison time for. My Family meets all 3 of those criteria.
Not being the suicidal type, I'll pass. But if I was there are a rediculous number of handguns around here that would be much more practical than a 20" Ruger bolt gun : )

J


I'll add that my knowledge is limited here. Correct me if I'm wrong. But when they move in next to you, you might do a bit of research as well.

And thanks to all who responded, it's been helpful.

Bullets are .500...

All work was completed by SSK Industries they own the reamers for the B&M line of cartridges. Usually they put a 16.5" barrel on the 50 B&M Super Short, I had a 18.5/8" barrel put on it to make it legal to take to Canada.

With a Cutting Edge 375 gr. Solid at 2200fps I wouldn't hesitate to to use it on a bull elephant.

Here's a link to the B&M web site: http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

damn was hoping 510 but i can understand why they went with 500 with the short package....looking at something like that ild kinda want to be able to use cast bullets intended for the 50 cal Sharps rounds.....but thats just me.....neat package and concept, would love to get my hands on it and put a few rounds down range....

That there's a neat rifle, and, a neat website. They certainly have some stupendous wood on display.

J

FWIW...the guy who has probably shot more trophy lions than anyone alive has used a 375 RUM (3002750ish, IIRC) on most of them.

Last year I followed the vultures in to three problem lion kills and I thought the 3/8" hole in the end of my 375H&H looked awfully small! These lions were just out of a park and I had been warned they didn't have any real fear of humans...especially when humans disturbed their dinner!

Next time I will take a 416 Remington or maybe the 375 Weatherby (3002700ish) I just built.

If you can stomach the Ruger, I'm sure it would work also.

The only Ruger rifle I own is a 40 year old #1, it's a pretty nice piece of equipment but single shot. I've never owned a Ruger bolt. Are you trying to tell me something about current Ruger bolt guns?

My bolt rifles span from a '42 Lithgow SMLE to late 50's Winchester M70's to late 80's Remington 700's. Not a lot of personal experience with bolt guns made since then.

In my limited understanding, most large cats don't drop for good after one shot regardless of caliber. That may be a placement issue but doesn't appear to be, that's the kind of information I'd be interested in.

I've found scant little .416 info on lion. Everyone seems to consider the .375 optimal. Feel free to input anything you might know. It's all helpful to me.

J

I realize that it's a 500 pound cat but maybe a 30 06 or a 300 win mag? I'm voting 300 win mag here.

My limited personal experience is limited to two lions. Both shot with a .375 H&H loaded with 300gr. TBBC

One at 14 yards, the other around 30 yards. First cat flopped a couple times like a fish out of water and expired quickly.

Second one jumped a couple feet into the air and twisted upon impact. She came down and made a beeline for me but stumbled and dropped after going 10-12 yards. Another bullet was put into for good measure.

Both cats shot behind the shoulder.

Well I've got enough 30-06's to outlast my (future) great-grandchildren I figure, as it should be.
I looked a bit at the Browning .338 mag autoloader. The .300 mags just don't trip my trigger for whatever reason, my uncle used them on everything tho.
A new(or used) rifle is brewing in the works, and I have nothing between 30-06 and 45-70, so....... there ya go : )
A medium to big bore is welcome here, just figuring which one.

I'm "almost" stuck on .375, unless I learn that .416 or .458 are better medicine for my purposes. But my trusty 30-06's stand at the ready. I appreciate all input.
I need to research .416 ballistics a bit I guess.

j

can't be that hard to kill ...Wikipedia says that they are now threatened

take a look at the AR platform with something like the 50 cal Beowulf or 458 SOCOM! Either one would offer plenty of HP for your intended need.

thats cause lions and people generally cant share the same territory cause lions have a nasty habit of eating livestock and people.....while leopards will also become man eaters at times its much less common and they are alot like our coyotes in that they can live within a city, hell every city south of the Sahara likely has leopards living in it....lions need true wild country preferably well removed from people and thats getting rarer and rarer in todays Africa...

there are also a couple diseases playing havoc on lions in true wild country which isnt helping....

No offense but I took a long look at the AR "platform" (?!) many years ago when I was wearing green uniforms every day and Uncle Sam cut my paychecks and bought the guns and the ammo. I wasn't so impressed (neither was my dear old Dad in '68 in SE Asia), but I was a rifleman before I enlisted and he was too.

As for the 50 Beowolf it's throwing a 400 gr. bullet at what, under 1900 fps? The Socom gets out a 300 gr. @ 1900 and a 405 gr. @ 1600 or so??
Come on man, that doesn't approach the "HP" for my intended need.

We're discussing .375H&H/Ruger, driving a 270 gr. @ 2700+, the .458WM sending a 300 gr. @ 2600, a 400 gr. @ 2500, a 500 gr. @ 2200+.
My numbers are close there.
.416 launches a 400 gr. at what, 2500?

I understand a whole generation of new shooters have no exposure beyond the AR "platform", but there exists a whole shooting world out there that AR land can't begin to approach.

So no, those chamberings aren't even close, I can beat that with my old 45-70.

J


And no offense intended, I'm glad we have a few million shooters who just adore the AR, they'll hopefully stay for life, support the 2nd Amendment cause. Just don't assume that the AR is the answer to every firearm question, it isn't.

FWIW, in Terry Wieland's book Dangerous Game rifles he states the preferred lion caliber is .416 based on his and other PH's experience. Having no experience myself with lions, I suppose I would defer to his opinion. Having said that probably either the .416 Ruger or the .375 Ruger would work well and my choice of either if I wanted a new gun would probably come down to what I already had in the safe.

Man there are so few .416's on the market compared to .375's. I'd rather buy used from a private party, but my brother is a long time ffl dealer so I can get a break on new rifles. I just enjoy the quality of older guns, maybe my misconception, maybe not.
I'll have to do some looking, and price reloading components.

I'd like to hear from someone that knows personally that the .416's are quite a bit more effective than the .375's.

I'll look into Mr. Wieland's book.

J

The best advice is read this: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911

One thing to remember if you do need to shoot a lion it's going to be just you and the loin. Not you the loin and your PH with more than likely a double big bore rifle to back you up, if things go bad.

My advice would to find a 458 WM Winchester Model 70 CRF cut the barrel to 20" and load it with some CEB 258 GR. bullets. Remember it's not just the caliber of a gun but the bullet it delivers.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=FB_S258_RAPTOR

Two PHs I had the pleasure of shooting the breeze with both said the .416, either Rigby or Remington, is their recommendation for lions.

Any quick expanding bullet at a high velocity is devastating on any cat. The 200gr GSC from my .375H&H doing around 3200fps is one of the quickest that I have seen a cat expire from a quartering towards lung shot.

The 1900s British solution to big cats was the 416 Rigby. True, a Lion is only a 400-500lb animal, but DRT when Lion hunting is a blessing. Anyway, they considered the 416 Rigby "The Cat's Meow" when it came to the Lion hunting. (sorry!)

Good...

Now buy my Ruger Hawkeye African I have here in the classifieds.

It's hard to beat a 375 Ruger/H&H.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ger_Hawkeye_African_375_PHOT#Post8723447

35 Whelen 250gr NP

Lets face it at 100 yards 375 H&H 300gr very soft round nose...at 50 yards 416 Rigby 400gr soft...At 25 yards 470NE double with 2) 500gr softs in rapid concession @ 10 yards run like hell! Problem solved ...you need 3 new rifles and 2 gun bearers. Preferably two guys that you could out run.

I did read it, I've been aware since my pre teen years that it's a compilation of correct bullet construction, in the correct diameter, at the correct velocity. Whatever the particular named cartridge is.

And I'm well aware that on the one in a 3 or 8 million chance I use the rifle to defend the homestead, the kids, and the close by neighbors (who all have young children who play outside)there will be no "professional hunter group" armed with multiple fine old 470 double guns to back poor old me up. At best my Lovely Bride with a 12 ga 580 loaded with (8)Brenneke Black magic's.

That's got me looking at .411 and .375 Hawk based on capacity. Formed on the grand old 30-06 case and sending a 260 gr, Nosler Partition at 2600 fps (in .375). 200 fps slower than the great old H&H. But standard mag capacity and with the (aparantly) reliable Wyatt's conversion to detachable box magazines, 10 rounds in the mag.

The tigers are in enclosures of from 3 to 10 each. So a failure of the chain link could concievably mean more than one large feline out. More than a standard 3 round capacity .375 Ruger would be mo better in my humble opinion.

My opinion is subject to change tho : )

J

I've been looking pretty much at the 260 gr. NP because it always opens up. But I'll look close at that bullet. 3200 is cooking right along.
Thank you.

J

Your choice of the .375 Ruger and a 260 NP is a good one. I have taken both lion and leopard in recent years. The leopard was a DRT one shot kill with a .338 Winchester loaded with a 225 NP at ~2,850 fps. The lion was shot with a .416 Rigby loaded with a 400 grain A-Frame. The A-Frame zipped straight on through with no apparent expansion and resulted in an "exciting" followup. I would have been better served with your .375 Ruger and a 260 NP, as you noted for the first shot.

For followup of a wounded cat, a .470 or .500 N.E loaded with Woodleigh softs in a well fitted, quick handling double is what you need.

saj I've looked soooo close at .35 Whelen, and .375 Whelen, .375 Whelan Improved, .375 Hawk, .411 Hawk. Based on the ability to carry more rounds in the gun compared to a big .375 round. And I have several '06 based rifles on hand.

All of the '06 based mid bores are all capable cartridges but I'm seriously thinking .375 Hawk, a version of .375-06 with the best velocity using 260 gr. NP. I may be stuck in the '80's but I love the old school NP fast expansion and that seems to be the ticket on large felines.

J

Right Wild Bill,
Maybe a belt fed M2 Browning MG. Just a little short of gun bearers around here but it would fill the bill nicely. Every Ma Duece I've carried wouldn't be so user friendly around my little compound.
Don't care to outrun my children in a life threatening environment, let them run for cover and I'll be the cat food if need be : )

J

Thanks for that.

I would be hoping to avoid the more "exciting" aspects on the very off chance I had to use the gun on cats.
My limited research leans solidly toward the Nosler Partition as a "always, always, always" fast opening bullet with some penetration remaining in the back end.

the old school NP has never failed me but I've never shot a big cat either.

Feel free to correct me on bullet preference but for now I'm thinking NP.

J

Here you go,
CDNN has 20" Alaskan 375's or 416's for $699, Stainless Lam stock 23" 375's for $699, LEFT HAND 20" stainless lam stock for $699 and 23" blue/wood 375 africans for $699. No brakes on any of them. Great price for what is probably the last of these models.

A .30/06 (or .300 mag) is more than enough for a first shot on a leopard. They can be killed with a well placed shot from most deer rifles with a quick expanding bullet, such as a NP or Woodleigh soft. I have a friend who is a retired PH. His "client rifle" was a .35 Whelen loaded with green box garden variety Remington softs and he swears by that combo as a leopard rifle. Another friend recently killed a very large mountain lion with one shot from a 9.3x 62 loaded with a 286 Barnes TSX. He said it was boom, plop. DRT. BTW, he killed his leopard a few years before with a single close range shot from a 9.3x 74 double. They were tracking the cat with dogs and the dogs failed to locate the cat, which was a few yards away behind a bush.

A lion can also be killed with a well placed shot from a .30/06 (where legal). However, having successfully hunted (and followed up) a lion, IMO, your .375 Ruger with a 260 NP is a better choice. Or a .375 H&H with the same bullet. Woodleigh makes an excellent soft that I would not hesitate to use for a first shot on a big cat.

Don't worry about magazine capacity too much. The odds are a leopard will either drop at the first shot or run off. You are unlikely to have time for a second shot at a leopard, much less a third. But I suppose it could happen.

You are more likely to get a second or a third shot off at a lion.

However, for followup on a wounded leopard or lion, a large bore double is, IMO, the best choice by far.

Just out of curiosity, where and when are you going cat hunting?

If you read the thread (I know, it's long), you'll get where I'm coming from. Not really any hunting involved. This is just the best place I know of to put it for real world input.

Mainly a new to me mid-big bore caliber to work with, in a rifle that can do double duty just in the odd case. And like I said, the adult tigers live in groups of 3-10, so magazine capacity really does matter to me.

J

That's pretty good pricing, but my older Brother is a stocking dealer and I luckily have quite a few options there at decent prices.
A 20" .375 Ruger would pretty much do the trick I believe.
I'm looking at Remington 700 in a .375 wildcat with extended magazine right now. I'm pretty long term familiar with the M700. But that's always subject to change.

And as always, I'd rather buy good solid used as opposed to new.
But thanks for that. I appreciate all input.

J

416 Remington would be my choice. Advice on the 375H&H is good as well.

For the "shock" factor and more penetration than seems likely. The Barnes 235gr TSX ought to be the best of several possibilities. A brief look into Barnes manual suggests that more than one load can get over 3000FPS~ 3040 at best listing. Thats a reasonable amount of horsepressure. About 4850 FP. Both shock and penetration in something thats easily hand held. And useful on anything else, that requires shooting. Just my opinion.

The 1895 Cowboy Marlin in 45-70 holds NINE. Eight in the magazine and one in the chamber. Loaded correctly, the 45-70 will dump a lion as well as if not better than the cartridges mentioned under the circumstances you present.

Here is an interesting article on the 375s. The performance with the Barnes 235 and the GS Custom 265gr are really awe inspiring. Kind of put the big cat problem in the varmint category! Especially the GS Custom. These are both monolithic expanders that penetrate well beyond their typical weight expectations. http://www.realguns.com/archives/144.htm

Hmm.....

If I was to blast my neighbors lions, I'd use my 300WM with 200 Accubonds.

If I wanted a big gun, I'd do a 375 Weatherby with 250 TTSX or Accubonds.

I wish my neighbor had lions.

They do many things in India that I'd advise against. That is merely one of the more obvious.

.375 H & H is the minimum in most countries. It is perfect for the job. Look no further than to that, or one of its equals like the .375 Ruger.

.45-70?

Before they went under, A-Square made a "Lion Load" that was a thinly jacketed soft and not bonded. I have never personally used it, but it had a good reputation as a first shot cat bullet. I would think an ordinary Remington Core Lokt or Federal Hot Core soft point would work well for the first shot on a cat in any sensible caliber, though I would choose (based on my personal experiences) a Partition over either.

Again, for followups, a heavy double is just the ticket. In India, during the era of the Shikari, the classic tiger rifle was a double (they shot them from the backs of elephants). If you want to see a great tiger hunting movie, watch "Harry Black and the Tiger" with Stewart Granger (if you can find a copy). Read the books that Jim Corbett wrote as well. He was the ne plus ultra of problem tiger and leopard hunters in India.

I would dearly love to hunt tiger, but am just not willing to go to prison to do it. Read the Lacey Act for further details.

You betcha. They either don't have a clue or don't want to admit it. If it was 45-70 H&H instead of 45-70 Govt., they would be all over it.

Just out of pure curiosity, how many big cats have you personally shot with a .45/70?

Not one. But I have shot a hell of a lot of big animals with a 45-70, and it puts all of them down RIGHT NOW. Zebra, blue wildebeast, black wildebeast, American bison, elk, you get the idea. Complete pass through penetration with a .458 bullet has a way of killing things, and a lion or tiger is not harder to shoot through than a zebra or a 2000 pound bison.

I have seen too many dvd's of animals being shot in Africa with a 375 or 416 to think they work better than a properly loaded 45-70. I actually have a 375 H&H FWIW, and it won't penetrate with my 45-70.

Nothing more than you would expect performance wise. This is a 375 300 gr taken from a lion after full body length penetration. It was hit in the chest and traveled the full 6 ft through the body to be recovered under the skin of the left rear leg.




Same projectile:




Softer bullets like Woodleigh would be a better bet on soft skinned DG animals like lions and leopard. Higher velocity helps.

See if your rifle likes Woodleigh or other premium grade softer ammo and you should be good. If there was any doubt, I would like the 375 over any of the other calibers mentioned for the reason you need one.

That zebra was hit with a 480 grain FN cast bullet which went through and through and was not recovered. I'm not saying that a 375 won't kill a lion. I'm saying a 45-70 that holds nine is a good choice as well, especially if you have to deal with multiple cats at the same time.

Cats only in the USA , nothing would beat the good old 45-70 in a modern lever gun

My choice is the .450/400 NE double. Pondoro Taylor loved it for lion. 400 grain Woodleigh RN Soft points will turn even the biggest Simba into a rug.

Not Simba, but this will give you and idea of what it will do.

Nope, Holland & Holland did better than a 45-70 after seeing what it could not do twenty years after the 45-70 was developed for our military. H&H developed a true sporting cartridge called the .500/450 Magnum Nitro Express design for double rifles during the late 1890s & Dangerous game hunting. It fires a .458-inch 480-grain projectile at over 2,100 feet per second to generate in excess of 5,000 foot-pounds force of muzzle energy. Which was a lot more powerful than the 45-70 Govt. during the same time period.



That's just a beauty, Both Rifle & Buff, Hatari!

gottdamn that is a hell of a buffalo. I still prefer speed (lots of it) mass and a proper bullet for lion...

Yip, I agree fully!

But on another note, let's be honest, we are really trying to split hairs here. What are we trying to prove? Whether we can expire the cat after 20yds or 18yds? You don't get deader than dead fellas.
Any of the calibers mentioned here will get the job done, as long as you comfortable shooting your rifle and can place the bullet where it matters.

Fun to talk about! Took that one in Rungwa. They have lions to beat the band there.

Sadly, the sport of hunting lion is quickly becoming the exclusive past time of Russian mafiaso, Arab sheiks, and Dot.com blunderaires. I do not fit in any of those "cat"-a-gories, and therefore lions may remain safe from my predations.

On the other hand, buffalo and leopards beware!

Sadly it appears those two species (actually, DG hunting in general) is heading in that direction. Have you seen the price increase in Zimbabwe lately? Next season the rate jumps even higher.

Yea, I have. It killed the trip to Zim this year. Zambia is still not open, and when it does, it will probably be stupid expensive too.

So how did the .450/400 NE double work out against three to five lions all at the same time?

Op only needs to deal with ONE African Lion.



Now the 20 adult tigers on the other hand! You'd need to have more capacity than your 45-70 rifle recommendations also. But only if they are all on you at the same time. Which is not common with what I have read. Herding big cats would probably be like herding frogs...they'll be all over the place.

the Winchester 1876 in 50-95 was actually exported to India and was fairly popular as a tiger and leopard rifle in some circles

And a handsome choice it is. Plus an impressive buffalo.
Having quite a few monetary priorities that currently rank higher than a classic English double, and given the current economy, I unfortunately don't see one in my immediate future.

It appears (to me) that the conventional wisdom of those with experience falls a bit toward the faster .375's though there's no doubt in my mind that all of the cartidges mentioned could be used effectively.
I'll just keep on the look out for a used rifle in say 35 or 375 Whelen (or 9.3mm) up to the .375 magnums that REALLY grabs my fancy.
Not goofin on the 45-70, I've run some very heavy loads thru a Ruger No 1 for many years but I've worked a bolt thousands of times for every time I've worked a lever action. I could just see myself reaching for the bolt handle on a lever gun : )
Until then I'm fairly content with my current 30-06 w/Nosler Partition, I've carried that rifle since 1980 and it's a near and dear friend.
Maybe put an adjustable gas plug on my '43 M1, mount a 2 1/2X scope ahead of the action and see how it likes the 200 gr. Partition just for fun.

John

As previously stated, because they are a highly endangered species and due to the harsh penalties imposed by the Lacey Act, I have never hunted tigers (and never will). It is clear that I have no personal experience in tiger hunting (as I do with lion and leopard), but from reading and studying them in videos, it is apparent that tigers are solitary cats and hunt alone, much like a leopard does. They are not pride animals, as are lions, and are are unlikely to congregate in a group long enough to be shot at. Especially after the first shot or two is fired.

I don't think i really understand your situation, but if you are speaking about captive, caged tigers, perhaps the wisest course is to build strong, high double fences separated by some distance and requiring two separate gates for the keepers to enter and leave through. Even the best enclosures can be defeated by a motivated cat, as the San Francisco Zoo incident of a year or two ago proved.

Should you expect a mass escape of 10 to 20 tigers, perhaps you would be best served by a mini gun or a Vulcan. I don't know if you are close to a Walmart, but I believe that are presently having a sale on their existing inventory of both mini guns and Vulcans, though they are limiting sales of 20mm ammunition to three boxes per customer. Why don't you email BATF and explain why you need the mini gun or Vulcan? I'm certain they would be sympathetic to your cause.

So now that's out of the way. I have this nagging fear of being attacked by rabid Unicorns. What to use? Would a 223AI be enough?

Evidently not, It's all within this thread though.
It would be silly for me to repeat it.

The basic question was, the big, slower .458's vs the faster mid bores on large cats.

John

Without a DOUBT and facts back it up, the latter are FAR superior on cats...

I got a model 1899 Savage in 22 Hi Power that was bad Tiger Medicine about 100 years ago. I got a photo of a guy standing next to a dead Tiger that he killed with a 70 grain .228 bullet at 2800'/sec. If it worked then it should work again.

I think that was missionary Harry Caldwell. Savage used to use that picture in their ads. Roy Chapman Andrews, another 99 user, met him in southeastern China. Roy's rifle was chambered for the .250-3000 and he used it all over Mongolia to collect specimens for the Museum of Natural History in New York. Jack O'Connor wrote a few paragraphs about this a long time ago.

has anyone tried to stir the pot by suggesting the 7mm mashburn and a good 160 or 175?

I read through this thread and, just out of curiosity(as I have no experience with DG)...Wouldn't a CZ-550 in 9.3x62 with 5 in the box be about ideal...285 gr Nosler Partitions...

your right it was Caldwell, tiger in question was shot in China