Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only How much "cylinder length" for a low 40's rifle?

How much cylinder length (action face to the first point where the rifle is contoured) do you need for long cartridges like 416 RM or 404 Jeffery?

Thanks,

Scott

This will likely stir up quite a debate.

You need enough to provide safe minimum chamber wall thickness. What that number is is hotly debated by folks.

Many will claim you need a "Cylinder" that measures 1.25" for at least teh entire length of the chamber. At the same time they are claiming this they are forgetting that the threaded barrel shank measures a good deal less than that depending on the action. I won't bother to look up the exact numbers but the shank of a LR 98 mauser will measure about 0.980" at its minimum. So, while people focus on the "cylinder" they are forgetting that the wall thickness over the shank is a good deal less.

Thanks for the reply.

I am looking at various barrel makers and getting lengths from 1.75 to 2.25 inches for a M70 with a controlled feed breech face.

This would seem to have more of an impact on aesthetics and balance rather than safety.

Scott

SWJ, FWIW, Woody Woodall, demanded that I leave the 1.250 cyl. section on my L. Walther 416 Wildcat barrel, out to the end of the Ruger case shoulder. I have a half inch long neck, but he wanted insurance, if someone later rechambered my wildcatted 375 Ruger to the newer factory 416 Ruger. So from the barrel maker's viewpoint, it ain't necessarily what you chamber it in, its what it may later be re-chambered into. Still, I was working up a knock off of P.H. Harry Selby's infamous 416 Rigby, on a military action, just like his, and I came darn close to the Rigby Factory's original weight and balance with Woody's custom Bavarian 1500 profile. Except that mine is set up for Scopes at present. But that's also subject to change. I'm left handed like Selby, and I have a second bolt with a straight handle, which will work if I grind off a few thousandths from a second shell holder for my press. As it is, its a little bit tight on the head space. I can't use the Mauser's wing safety with a scope. Selby's rifle still uses one of these, and its a good idea, due to all of the loading and unloading.

Here's what the factory one looks like on my 416 Rem.

The threaded barrel shank can be smaller in diameter and still be quite pressure safe because it will be surrounded and re-inforced by the substantial metal of the reciever ring.

My 340 Tyrannosaur rifle, on a 1917 Enfield action that has been highly modified, has ZERO cylinder or shank outside of the receiver ring. I had the gunsmith do a featherweight contour to it which features a rapid and radical shoulder right down to the regular barrel's starting diameter, right AT the reciever ring.

The no Barrel or chamber reinforcing extension into the barrel meat idea has worked for many thousands of Model 70 Featherweights and my barrel which was a 300WBY for about a decade and then a re bore and re chamber to my wildcat which pushes .338 225gr bullets to a full 3100fps muzzle velocity and so is no low pressure wimpy chambering. I have never, EVER considered the idea that the chamber could possibly burst with such a contour. And, this gives me more of the muzzle heavy steadiness that I prefer, allowing us to leave more meat out at the end of the barrel.

Safariman, Layne Simpson did an article on Selby's old Mauser in 416 Rigby, now residing at Wingmead Plantation, in La. I used his measurements to create a skinny custom version of L. Walther's Bavarian 1500 profile. This is why Woody Woodall demanded the full 1.250 section in front of the receiver ring. I came out within an ounce of weight and the same balance as the original, German barreled, Rigby product. Obviously an original 416 Rigby has a larger diameter chamber, but Woody guided me through this profiling process, to where my rifle is a wash with Selby's original one.

What I didn't know at the time, was that my 2.6 inch tapered wildcat's case has exactly the same volume as a 416 Newton Wildcat, which is 2.5 inches long. The gentleman from Cody, Wyo. who is their resident Newton freak, traded cases with me, so I now know this from my own measuring.

Hi, my custom 416 Rigby on a Wby MK5 action has a Douglas blank turned to a #5 Super mag profile. It is 1.250" cyl dia for 1.750" long and a 0.800 muzzle dia. My CZ 550 mag in 416 Rigby is smaller about 1.220" dia and only a bit over 1.250" but less than 1.700" long, it is a little light in my mind. The 1.220" dia is good but I would like it to be about 1.70 long. The Weatherby 416 factory rifle is 1.225" dia and 1.750" long, that looks like a good size for me. My 378 wby is the early Japanese with the #3 and is only 1.20 dia and 1.375" long. I have to shoot it pretty slow to prevent the barrel from over heating. Randy

XZQVVH, FWIW, I wanted Selby's Rigby's performance, without the danger of setting back my bolt lug abutments, in my receiver. My G.S. put on an oversized .416 pilot on my 8mm Wildcat reamer and then did a 2 R chamber with his own neck-throat reamer. To get my data for Hornady's custom desk, I bought a Lyman 416 Rigby reloading die set, and trimmed the sizing die back .300". Then I ran one formed case into the sizing die without the expander, and a second into it with the expander button installed. These two samples gave me the mic'd diameters I needed, and I phoned them into Hornady, who then made my custom die set. I can still reload, but not form, my 416 Wildcat cartridges with either the trimmed back 416 Rigby Die set, or my Hornady custom 416 Wildcat die set. The Lyman 416 Rigby seating die works just fine, right out of the orange box. I cannot tell any differences between ammo loaded with either of these two die sets. Note that since I used an earlier 8mm Mag reamer, for my body and shoulders, Hornady already had those measurements from my earlier sample cases, in their CNC machining center's memory.

My G.S. also used my GO gauge from the 8mm Mag. to head space my 416 Wildcat with. These shortcuts only worked because I used the same half inch long neck of the old 416 Rigby in my 416 Wildcat's design. But, all the same, there is some panache in using my 416 Rigby reloading dies to load up a batch of my own 416 wildcat ammo.

As soon as I get caught up on some household chores, I'm heading out the the rifle range with some 400 gr. Solids, to see if I can reach the old Rigby's 2400 fps. with R-15 powder. My own M-98's magazine will accept 3.51 inch long cartridges. This leaves me with enough steel in the bolt lug's abutments, to jack up my pressures. With an 8 & 3/4rs' lb. rifle, this will be interesting. But you never said how light your rifles are.

Did that in my 98 by chambering in .416 Ruger. My Magazine is 3.400". Love it.

z1r, Re-chambering to the factory 416 Ruger will be my last resort. I wanted the half inch long necks of the old Rigbys. Almost all of the bullets have half inch shanks below their cannelures. In your factory short neck cases they stick down into the powder chamber.

I still don't have your volume, but I do have the old 8 x 68 Schuler's case body taper and shoulders to help my wildcat feed with the most reliability, in the Mauser's CRF, design.

The bullets protruding into the case don't seem to be preventing my velocity goal, which, like yours, was to drive a 400 at 2400 fps.

The 8x68 is a wonderful cartridge, but it too required feedrail work on a std 98 to get to feed slick. My 416 feeds every bit as good as my 8x68, which in turn feeds every bit as good as the original 8x57 the action was designed for.

I started on a .404 Jeff build but decided the 416 Ruger would be a much more expedient build.

My 416 Ruger 98 sports the same length barrel as my CZ 550 Rigby but weighs in a good deal less. Much livelier. Though, when the loads get above 2400 fps, I prefer the CZ and its heft.

You may not have the volume and thus may not achieve 2400 fps but then again, 2300 will get it done just as well. Good luck.

z1r, Both the 416 Rem. Mag. and the new 416 Ruger are being held back by the factories, at least in 24 inch length barrels, to 2400 fps, as this is what the bullets were designed for. I have a couple of grains more volume than the 416 Taylor. There are now two different nose profiles, one made for the old Rigby, and the newer, shorter one, made for the 416 Remmie and Rugers. I checked with Woodleigh, and I can use the longer Rigby nose profile, even with their 450 gr. solids, in my 3.51 inch magazine. I may have to roll in a new cannelure to space out the 400 gr. Rigby profiled bullets another tenth of an inch to get up to 2400 fps, but that's doable. Right now, I'm within a few grains of the 400 H&H., which also gets 2400 fps. with 400 grain .411 bullets. Reloader 15 is 'THE' canister powder to use here.

After firing the Selby Rigby at Wingmead, I also wanted a rifle close to it. Thought about just making a .416 Remington but before getting going bought used CZ 550 Magnum from a friend. After trimming down the stock it weighs exactly what the Selby rifle does, 9-1/4 pounds.

The shank is 1.22" in diameter and 1.8" long. After that it tapers to 1.12" at the front of the shoulder of the case. The "standard" 2400 fps with a 400-grain bullet comes at relatively low pressure, of course, but have handloaded 400's up to 2650 fps at a calculated 60-62,000 psi with no problems at all.

Mule Deer, That's neat about Wingmead. Layne Simpson called the old Selby's weight at 8 & 3/4's lbs. in print. Is that in error?

I just loaded up some old NOS "mystery" solids at 410 grs. I'll have to roll in a second cannelure, or extend my Ruger cases from 2.6 inches to 2.7 inches. Right now its simpler to just roll in new cannelures, but my Sizing die was reamed to take a 2.7 inch long case, by Hornady. This insurance cost me a whole extra Ten Bucks. This old 410 solid, seated and crimped into its cannelure, will just fit into my magazine, when I use a 2.7 inch long case made from 375 Ruger Basic Brass. With the standard length cases, 2.592, they measure out at a C.O.A.L. of 3.421. My magazine is lengthened out for a Max. 3.51 inch long cartridge. So I have much more steel behind my bottom bolt lug than Rigby left in their military Mauser actioned 416 Rigbys.

When this does occur, you get vertical stringing, which ruins the rifle. I'm guessing that old Harry Selby, exacted a blood oath from someone at Wingmead, to never, ever, goose things up, above the factory pressures.

I loaded three each of my re-formed 375 Rugers in five stages. From 68 grains of R-15, up to 72 grains. At 70 and above, I had to seat the bullets out beyond their cannelures to still hear the R-15 moving in the case. I don't know yet how this powder takes to being compressed. Seated out for a C.O.A.L. of 3.5 inches, I'm looking at getting 100% density, at around 73-74 grains of it.

I'm getting really close to some published R-15 loads in the blocky factory 416 Ruger. My wildcat uses a half inch long neck, as is, and a sloping profile, taking after the old 8 x 68 S Schuler. But I have exactly the same volume as a .416 Newton Wildcat, which is 2.5 inches long, and used in a standard 3.40 inch long magazine.

Right now, one pass through my custom New Dimension Sizing die turns a 375 Ruger virgin case into my 10.6mm x 375 Ruger wildcat. It comes out about 0.034 too long, which makes this into a manual case trimming operation. I trimmed off 0.300's inch from a Lyman 416 Rigby sizing die, and I can reload my cat with this die set. But I can't form my wildcat cases with the oversized Rigby sizer and seating dies. The Lyman seating die in 416 Rigby, seats and crimps, just as good as the generic .416 caliber New Dimension Hornady does.

A word of warning here. Both seaters, can and will, buckle the shoulders of Ruger cases, as they are not supported like they should be. A herky crimp will bring this flaw out. I also have a case taper only form die for my first Ruger parented wildcat, so I can run any buckled shoulders back through it, and iron them out. The bore of this die is about 11mm, so there is no contact with the bullet or neck.

Hornady does not approve of this use of their die with a live round, but it remains the cheapest insurance that each and every wildcat cartridge will run through my Mauser action, without dragging.

I'm now on my third and fourth wildcats, using this same case taper, so the Hornady New Dimension sleeved Seating dies, (generic for caliber) cannot defeat me by buckling out the shoulders of my loaded rounds, when I must put a good solid crimp into them.

Thanks for the additional information. Sounds like an interesting round!

Layne's article was full of misinformation, which is hard to understand since Joe Coogan (who worked for Harry Selby for years as an assistant PH and still visits him in Botswana) was right there to answer any questions.

It might have had something to do with jet lag and/or printer's devils. Fortunately for me, I went to Africa with the Speer 350 gr. Mag Tips at 2400 fps. This is their maximum penetrating velocity, from a 1 turn in 14 inch, twist barrel. More juice, means bigger mushrooms, but not necessarily better penetration.

This morning, I got busy and loaded up a panel of 15 test loads with what has turned out to be some really old Kynoch 410 grain, 416 Rigby solids. These came in an unmarked cardboard box, out of the basement of a Lewiston, Idaho, Gun Store. When the clerk asked me how many I wanted, I quietly answered; "all of them".