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Originally Posted by steve4102
Found this on another forum. Not my words.

There's more to the story than that article implies.

That family has been illegally grazing cattle on the land for over 40 years, and has never paid a grazing fee in their lives. More than 25 other cattle grazers have been filing complaints about the family, for quite some time; in addition to the BLM. His "claim" to the land is nothing more than, "that's where we have taken our cows since 1877."
The father has been court-ordered to remove his cattle from the area 3 times since 1998, but adamantly refuses to comply.

But most importantly, last week he told multiple new agencies, the BLM and Forestry officials present, that he would do "whatever it took" to win the fight and stop the government from interfering with his herd or collecting their grazing fees. When asked for clarification about whether that was legal action or something else, he simply responded "whatever it takes".


So, when you have a man claiming he will do "whatever it takes" to stop government agencies from carrying out a court order, you have to assume there might be the possibility of something a little more serious than filming agents during the roundup.


before the tin foil crowd soils themselves, read above although you guys read what you want to read...


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The enviro's and blm are saying the cows endanger the toad. The cows have been there since 1877. If the toads were going to be gone,because of the cows, they would have expired a long time ago. The toads eat the cow dung to enhance their diet. How can the feds come in and shut down state hwys?

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If you owned a cow, and had to feed him, how much do you think it would cost a month? $20? $50? $100?
Last I heard, which was admittedly a long while ago, ranchers paid $5 a month to graze public land. What's the current rate?


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Bundy is a giant family in the area. I don't know this gent. The folks I know of (very slightly)over on the Arizona side, are always very gracious and friendly when I bump into them. As I said, they have been in the country a long time, with huge families, there might be 1000 Bundys within a 100 mile circle.

When someone decides to stop buying a hunting license to hunt, or a grazing permit, to graze publicly held land, you are asking for trouble.

This issue was settled in 1934 with the Taylor Grazing act. Private herds on Public land needed to get a permit, and be monitored for long term impact.

If the land had been homesteaded in 1934, this wouldn't be public land.

But it is public land. Bundy can no more graze it with out a permit than you can.

What do you think the locals would say if you showed up with a new hat, and 2 semi trucks full of cows, and moved in on the open range with out a permit?


On some level, this case is like an old fashioned union, holding a strike at the end of the factories life.

They want things to stay the same, but they never will.

Anybody who has set their life up, to succeed or fail, based on grazing cows on land that gets 6" of rain a year, has made a bad call.

It does touch a lot of buttons, about cowboys, and the government, and the old days.

thats why it is on the news, it hits those buttons.

Sycamore


Originally Posted by jorgeI
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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If you have money than they will name a price if you wish to do it? What is worst is it has been ingrained that you need to pay to do this otherwise your labeled a criminal. Nice to see .gov has it's priorities straight on which laws they choose to enforce. Screw em!

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"This issue was settled in 1934 with the Taylor Grazing act. Private herds on Public land needed to get a permit, and be monitored for long term impact"

That about settles it right there, except for that thin line between "freedom" and some kind of goverment controls which obviously has gotten out of control in many areas. Problem here is a lot of folks confuse "freedom" with total anarchy..


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Do you guys really think that a rancher just woke up one day and said "I'm tired of paying for my BLM lease, since I'm above the law, and can buck the government, I can do as I please?"

Get real. The guy was having his ranch that his family homesteaded in the 1800's taken away because environmental groups sued the government to remove his cattle from the land, and he objected by non-compliance.

The guy isn't a criminal any more than the guys in NY hanging on to their guns after they passed unconstitutional laws against them.... One day you are legal, the next day you are labeled a criminal.

There had better be a lot of heads pulled out of their butts very soon, or these type actions will have each of us hung out to dry with one thing or another. Liberals are out to take your freedom and beat you into submission whether you realize it or not.


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Originally Posted by rockinbbar
The guy was having his ranch that his family homesteaded in the 1800's taken away because environmental groups sued the government to remove his cattle from the land, and he objected by non-compliance.


Except that that's not what happened.

The facts are that this is land that his family never owned. Ever. They didn't own it.

Instead, it was land that they used. Somebody else's land that they had been using since the 1800's.

In no sense of any law does that make it his land.

The new land owners, which now happen to be the Federal Government, are saying "Get off my lawn!"

It's not his property, he needs to butt out. Unless of course, you don't actually believe in property rights...


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Freedom,liberty and the police state require that another's land be his now.


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Originally Posted by HugAJackass
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
The guy was having his ranch that his family homesteaded in the 1800's taken away because environmental groups sued the government to remove his cattle from the land, and he objected by non-compliance.


Except that that's not what happened.

The facts are that this is land that his family never owned. Ever. They didn't own it.

Instead, it was land that they used. Somebody else's land that they had been using since the 1800's.

In no sense of any law does that make it his land.

The new land owners, which now happen to be the Federal Government, are saying "Get off my lawn!"

It's not his property, he needs to butt out. Unless of course, you don't actually believe in property rights...


Yes, and no. Nevada is an Open Range state. It recognizes Open Range and said range is free for anyone to graze. This guy's family had been grazing said range before there even was a state of Nevada and it continued with everyone doing. The actual "ranches" that were homesteaded were relatively small because everyone could utilize the commonly held range to graze their herds. Look it up, it is still the state law.

Then, the federal government comes in and says, "This is our land you have to pay us a fee to graze here." So, the ranchers started paying the fees. Maybe they would have preferred to actually own the land, but guess what, by then the feds weren't selling any of it, so they didn't have that option anymore. So they paid the fees which were nominal and continued on living as they always had in grazing the commonly held range with other families.

Fast forward to modern times and now the environmentalists take over the government and the government says, "You can't graze that land because you are harming the tortoise." This guy is refusing to comply.

I sort of get the guy's point. The cattle industry in that entire part of the world was built on the scheme of open range that was commonly held by all for the benefit of all. Then the government moved in and put conditions on it. Now, they claim the right to tell people they can't do what they've always done.


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Cliven Bundy, a descendant of Mormons who settled in Bunkerville more than 140 years ago, claims an inherent right to graze the area and casts the conflict as a states' rights issue. He said he doesn't recognize federal authority on land that he insists belongs to Nevada.

His dispute with the government dates to 1993, when land managers cited concern for the federally protected desert tortoise and capped Bundy's herd at 150 animals on his 158,666-acre Bunkerville allotment of rangeland.

Bundy protested by withholding his monthly grazing fees and kept using the range. The BLM canceled his grazing permit in 1994. A federal court in 1998 ordered him to remove the animals, and federal authorities in 1999 officially closed the Bunkerville allotment to cattle.

Conservationists say the cows eat scarce forage needed by wildlife including the tortoise and horses.

Federal officials tried to round up Bundy's livestock two years ago, but he refused to budge.

Since then, he has lost two federal court rulings � and a judge last October prohibited him from physically interfering with any seizure or roundup operation.


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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sounds like an episode of Bonanza or Rawhide!


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Originally Posted by isaac
Cliven Bundy, a descendant of Mormons who settled in Bunkerville more than 140 years ago, claims an inherent right to graze the area and casts the conflict as a states' rights issue. He said he doesn't recognize federal authority on land that he insists belongs to Nevada.

His dispute with the government dates to 1993, when land managers cited concern for the federally protected desert tortoise and capped Bundy's herd at 150 animals on his 158,666-acre Bunkerville allotment of rangeland.

Bundy protested by withholding his monthly grazing fees and kept using the range. The BLM canceled his grazing permit in 1994. A federal court in 1998 ordered him to remove the animals, and federal authorities in 1999 officially closed the Bunkerville allotment to cattle.

Conservationists say the cows eat scarce forage needed by wildlife including the tortoise and horses.

Federal officials tried to round up Bundy's livestock two years ago, but he refused to budge.

Since then, he has lost two federal court rulings � and a judge last October prohibited him from physically interfering with any seizure or roundup operation.


So is 150 animals or 150 cows? That is not very many. A man could go broke on that.

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Originally Posted by steve4102
It appears that Mr Bundy is just another guy trying to avoid paying the same fees and cost as everyone else in his region, stealing would be a good word.

What he is doing is akin to a logger going on to public land and harvesting timber without permission and without paying Stumpage fees, stealing is the word.

You don't own the land, you can't use the land without permission or without paying for it. Just cuz you have always broken the Law doesn't mean you are above the law.

He is a thief and now he is paying for it.


So you call him a thief with no first hand knowledge that anything you posted is true???


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Campfire 'Bwana
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He's a mormon so he's halfway to kookdom as it is...


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Quote
In no sense of any law does that make it his land.

The new land owners, which now happen to be the Federal Government, are saying "Get off my lawn!"


He isn't claiming it is his.

He is claiming the right to use it as they have for many generations, and protesting the management that has stooped to allow special interest groups to control it.

At what point do YOU stand up and say enough from the liberals?

When they make a wide sweep and declare that nobody can drive and hunt or shoot or camp, or fish on public lands?

Get ready, because it's happening now.


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If you were born into hid family, you'd be a Mormon too.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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"Federal snipers with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM)"- WTF?
I don't know if this rancher is right, wrong, or just a nut case... but I do know that the feds are WAY over the top. Doesn't this quote bother anyone else?


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Originally Posted by HugAJackass
The new land owners, which now happen to be the Federal Government, are saying "Get off my lawn!"
Could you show me in the US Constitution where it authorizes the US Government to own land other than the District of Columbia, military bases, post offices and post roads, and other authorized government buildings.

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If you can show me where it's prohibited.......



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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