Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Bush War

WWI may have bred Hitler, but it was the whole of Europe that nursed and raised him.He was a threat well before '39, but nobody wanted to do anything about him. The feeling was maybe he won't invade us, so hes probably not all that bad. It cost a lot more lives than it should have. There are people today who would rather wait until war is at their doorstep, than to admit it is needed. Some people we can not coexist with. No amount of touchy feely sympathy for them will make them like us. Peace will only come through defeat. Theirs or ours.

Just make sure you are right before you pull the trigger, you can't bring the bullet back once it is fired. Don't know if you have been in service or seen the real face of war, I have and it ain't pretty.

Sonnie, and others who want to run down our young people every time something like this comes up- I'm calling BS and I'm not buying your arguments.
<br>Sure, we have kids who had ears pierced, colored hair, and other things we consider strange now. It is obviously way too easy for you to forget the things we did that drove our parents crazy.
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<br>Keep in mind that this world we live in is a much more complicated place than when we were "warriors' age". When we were young enough to worry about wars, it was pretty black and white. These days, unless we have access to all the mountains of information available to our leaders that wasn't available then, we just can't make any calls with any certainty of being right or wrong.
<br>The fact is that I am embarrassed to see our young folks being run down by you and others- as if it is their fault that all this is happening. The visible few that stick in our craw at times are a minor inconvenience and for the most part, this generation of kids is just as tough, loyal, and willing to give their all for our country as any other generation before.
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<br>I suppose you think that everyone in the 40's, 50's, and 60's weren't ready to be led around by their ties, like the sheep you refer to? What was the "Red Scare", Rock and Roll are evil, and all the other mob mentality rules of unbending minds? Obviously, some of those uptight minds have never learned to accept the world as it has changed. It isn't better or worse, IMHO, it just is the world as it is and we need to learn to live in it somehow. Today we fight, tomorrow we negotiate- the trick is knowing which time is which.- And that really hasn't changed much in our lifetimes and likely won't.- Sheister

Sonnie,
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<br>The "great generation" that defeated Hitler were a bunch of farm hicks. The rock and roll "baby boomer" generation kicked the snot out the the NVA when they were allowed too. The girly man "generation Xer's" whipped Saddam. The body pierced, baggy pants "millenialist generation" has spanked the Al Queda (sp?) at every turn.
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<br>I think we Americans are still made of strong stuff. The external crap we see from kids today is just "decoration" and speaks to taste rather than substance. While my daughters won't be dating boys with ear rings, I think American kids today still have the "rigth stuff"--just as dad, grandpa, and great grandpa did.
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<br>Blaine

Shiester, I saw two huge buildings in the heart of the largest city of this country, full of people, destroyed. I have seen the dead from biological weapons, controled by Saddam, his own people for that matter. The media shows patrol aircraft being fired upon in the no fly zone by Saddam. Inspectors thrown out of the country by Saddam. --- I know my opinion!!
<br>As for our young folks, we all believe in them, we must, but have you watched the concerts? I park cars on my lots next to Fair Park,(Cotton Bowl), in Dallas and see the thousands of young folks that attend each one. The shopping malls are scarey at times and sections of town are not safe, from drugs. This is true in most of the large metroplex areas, up and down both coasts. Look at all the concerts on TV, tell me what you see. Yes, the rural areas of America are not as bad, BUT, we darn sure didn't look, act, dress,(or undress), talk, the way they do now. Why are teachers afraid of their students? Why do we have problems in the schools? Why are there so many runaways now. You tell me the young are better now than in the 50 or 60s. We had no drug problems, few of the young were in therepy, the courts were not covered up with kids. You didn't see kids being prosicuted as adults for serious,(murder), like today. I don't remember any teen prostitutes either and I had the money. I trained basics,(17-18 year olds), for four years in the 50s, know what they were like back then. For the MAJORITY, to say they are better now than then, I disagree. There is no choice, they are our future, and coming voters, who will elect the leaders. Most will grow out of the fad stage when they get responsibility but who is teaching responsibility these days?? How many school kids have a job today?? Think what you want, I don't sugar coat anything. My son and daughter still say "yes sir", "no sir", "yes mam", "no mam", to all adults. Marie was a bank officer, now mother, Kevin works in county government. How long has it been since a young person called you Sir. How long has it been since a young person was glad to get a job from you? Tell me some good, I need it! Not about one or two but many. -- no

Blaine, You know I agree with you! -- no

T LEE
<br>Enlisted back in '88. Took a few years off to live in Alaska. But, I have a few good years left, so I'm back in. Yes, I've seen combat and know what it's about. I know many have seen a lot worse. Do I want war-HELL NO. If it needs to be done though, I'm
<br> all for doing it now. Not later, like in WWII when we waited for millions to die before acting. I'm starting to wonder about that generations convictions.
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<br>I have children to protect. I would rather get this over now than have them do it later. History shows waiting only costs more lives, not fewer.

One thing is for certain, we don't even know a small percentage of what the intel people know about the goings on in Iraq! We know exactly what we have been spoon fed by this administration and its leaders. OpSec protocols are still being used and I can assure you any media puke that may actually know anything is cached away somewhere or held to secrecy until the story breaks...Remember loose lips sink ships!
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<br>Don't expect to turn on CNN and see where the 82nd is enroute to Baghdad!!
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<br>Saddam's day will come!
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<br>Mike

TLEE,
<br>I read your posts on this subject and say I must agree with you. This is my opinion on the matter and everyone can take it for that.
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<br>As Americans we tend to paint with a broad brush. Bush Sr. demonized Saddam and in doing so painted himself into a corner with much of the Republican Party. This is what happens when you make a person evil, not quasi-evil, not the Diet Coke of Evil, pure evil. We- I say we because I was there- had "permission" (from the UN and the huge number of allies we amassed- 26 nations supported us logistically or provided military assistance- in 1991) to kick the Iraqis out of Kuwait, nothing else. Many members of the UN wanted us to limit our maneuver and weapons effects to Kuwait proper, imagine being outflanked by the Iraqis because we wanted to avoid getting anyone angry. I myself am glad we ignored that. The removal of Saddam was not a stated nor an implied mission in 1991. Sure it would have been nice, but it was not necessary for a victory. Now we have another Republican President (who I like and voted for mind you) and the mess has to be cleaned up, Saddam must be removed to bring back the faithful.
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<br>Does Saddam have WMD, yes. Has he used them before, yes. During the Iran-Iraq war and against the Kurds (BTW, Kurds aren't considered Iraqi by the Iraqis, all the nations in the region with Kurds persecute them, we've withheld weapons and technical support from the Turks for their treatment of the Kurds). Has he given them to terrorists, not that we can prove- at least not publicly. Will he give them to terrorists, doubtful. Is he a threat to the region, yes. Does he need to be removed, eventually.
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<br>Let's look at what we can do.
<br>We sent 3 commercial cargo ships loaded with armor (unspecified) to Kuwait. We have a Maritime Prepositioned Ship Squadron at Diego Garcia (enough ammo, food, water, Hummers, tanks, etc. for a Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF) for 30 days). Unfortunately the Army has not seen fit to follow this lead of forward basing supplies. Surface shipping is required to get our armor to the fight, we can airlift tanks, but it takes longer to get a heavy brigade's tanks there by air than by sea.
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<br>We have good relations with Turkey, but no bases in the southern part. Saudi Arabia has refused to renew our contracts for air and naval facilities. The UAE and Bahrain have refused to open any new contracts with us. We are fresh out of friends within range.
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<br>2/3 of our military airlift capability is in the Air Reserve and Air Guard and they don't do drill weekends because they are always being called upon to support active duty needs. Our ability to airlift troops and light expendables is already at the breaking point. If I remember correctly we have enough amphibious shipping to get 2 MEFs on the water at once if every ship is working, but that won't give us more armor than one Army heavy brigade, so our initial invasion would have to be light and our armor would have to sit offshore in civilian vessels until a port is taken. The point of launching an invasion from 8000 miles away begins to look like a reality, imagine the logistical nightmare.
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<br>Lastly there were 528,000 Americans who served "In Theater" during the Gulf War with at least 10 other nations providing ground forces or support troops on the ground, how can we go this alone (or with just the Brits) with 250,000? As far as the kids go, I guarantee today's warriors are better trained, better led, smarter and better fighters than we were in 1991.
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<br>This got long fast and if you actually took the time to read it I thank you.
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<br>Wish me luck if I end up there again,
<br>Bob
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Amen, Sheister, amen!
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<br>This is the best damn country in the world and the kids today are better than they've ever been...the American spirit is strong and alive! It's all perspective.

Kodiakisland,
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<br>I think we are on the same page, just different paragraphs. We will have to do somthing sooner or later, but it must be done right the first time. I don't want to see our young troops wasted as we were in RSVN.
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<br>Gunny_Bob,
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<br>Excellant post. I am glad you put it in perspective the way you did. My 31 year old nephew is an Army Ranger and was in the Balken's, from what I have seen of our troops on visit's with him and his wife at a couple of bases, we have nothing to worry about in the quality department. It is the political leaders that worry me. The troops will do their part if given the proper support, no doubt in my mind.
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<br>All,
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<br>This from the BBC. Things may be changing, Blair is usually not this militant, a little waffling but definatly tougher than the norm. Now a few more onboard and we stand a good chance. We NEED bases in the area, Diego Garcia ain't enough, we need bases on the continent itself. We just have to make sure our troops have all the support they possibly can, before "Loosing the Dogs of War"
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<br>Britain will pay 'blood price' - Blair
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<br>US says no decision has been made on attacking Iraq
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<br>Britain must be prepared to pay a "blood price" to secure its special relationship with the
<br>US, Prime Minister Tony Blair has told the BBC ahead of talks on Iraq with President
<br>Bush.
<br>But Britain was not America's puppet, the prime minister said in an interview with the
<br>BBC Two programme Hotline to the President, to be screened on Sunday.
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<br>They (the US) need to know, `Are you prepared to commit, are you prepared to be there
<br>when the shooting starts?'
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<br>Tony Blair
<br>UK Prime Minister
<br>Mr Blair - who has promised to publish a dossier of evidence against Iraq in the coming
<br>weeks - said the threat of chemical and biological weapons in the hands of "highly
<br>unstable states" could not be ignored.
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<br>He told the Hotline programme: "In the end, Britain is a sovereign nation. Britain decides
<br>its own policy and although I back America I would never back America if I thought they
<br>were doing something wrong.
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<br>"If I thought that by committing military action in a way that was wrong, I would not
<br>support it. But I have never found that and I don't expect to find it in the future."
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<br>Blair denies he is a US puppet
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<br>Mr Blair will meet President Bush on Saturday at Camp David, in a meeting that is likely
<br>to discuss who could succeed Saddam, but which advisers have said is not "a council of
<br>war".
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<br>Meanwhile, President Bush is continuing a diplomatic offensive to win support for an
<br>attack on Iraq, seeking to persuade key members of the UN Security Council to back his
<br>campaign to oust Saddam Hussein.
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<br>The president is expected to telephone on Friday the leaders of France, Russia and China,
<br>who are all sceptical about the need for military action.
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<br>Mr Blair will meet Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow in early October, and
<br>although the visit is said to be long-planned, Mr Putin is regarded as a vital player in
<br>decisions about how to confront Iraq.
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<br>'When shooting starts'
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<br>Hotline to the President presenter Michael Cockerell asked Mr Blair whether one of the
<br>elements of the UK-US special relationship was whether "Britain is prepared to send
<br>troops to commit themselves, to pay the blood price".
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<br>Iraqis face an uncertain future
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<br>Mr Blair replied: "Yes. What is important though is that at moments of crisis they (the
<br>USA) don't need to know simply that you are giving general expressions of support and
<br>sympathy.
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<br>"That is easy, frankly. They need to know, `Are you prepared to commit, are you
<br>prepared to be there when the shooting starts?'"
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<br>The prime minister added: "We are not at the stage of decision on Iraq, and there are all
<br>sorts of different ways in which we might decide to deal with this Iraqi problem in the
<br>end.
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<br>"But what you cannot do is to say that this issue of weapons of mass destruction,
<br>proliferation of chemical weapons, biological weapons and nuclear capability in the
<br>hands of highly unstable states ... that these are issues that don't need to be dealt with."
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Gunny_Bob,
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<br>My best wishes and prayers will go to all that must go in "Harms way". I'll have family there as well, my nephew is an Army Ranger and demolitions specialist on his third enlistment, you know he will be right there!
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<br>All I ask is that the troops have the best possible support, logistical as well as morally so they can do the job right the first time without another quagmire like Vietnam. That is truly my only concern.
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Gentlemen
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<br>I firmly believe that we could field a military to be proud.
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<br>We only hear about the bad kids. Therefore that few percent has always and will always be around.
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<br>When it is all said the only worry that I have is the politicians and the wasters of our youth. If we commit one GI he should be have the total backing of our government.
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<br>Therefore, If we commit one GI we need to do so only after we declare war and continue until we receive unconditional surrender.
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<br>These police actions are by and large none of our business. Most of these peoples have hated and warred among themselves for centuries. We are stupid to think we can change them.
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<br>My humble opinion for what it is worth.

I believe that puts you and I on the same page, and paragraph.
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<br>I am not worried about the quality of or troops, I only worry about them being wasted to no end like we were in Korea and S. E. Asia many moons ago.

T. Lee, that is exactly what I am afraid of. Waisting lives without any clear distinctive threat. And, in addition, stirring up the several billion other Muslums in the world who would just love to begin a hate campaign against the evil U.S. I am not going to simply agree with our overnment, this time, that they know best. I did that in Viet Nam and I won't do it again. I have seen and heard too much about our government, that frankly, I don't trust 'em. I need reasons and rationale to support our President. Until I get it, I can't help think that there may be alterior Political motives. I will support our troops whever they are sent, however. Going to war is not their decision and they deserve only the best, should it happen.

Gunny_Bob nailed it better than I could. He put the fine point on it I was trying to. We don't need economic prompted wars, only in National defense with well defined threats to our National security, not what if's and maybe he will's.

I feel very strongly that Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations (Islamic or not) ARE threats to our people and our national security. The objective seems to have been to shut down our banking system, imagine the damage caused if the world's largest banks simply stopped trading.
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<br>We need to direct our efforts at tracking down and eliminating the persons responsible for last years atrocity, not cleaning up the leftovers of a previous administration. Al-Qaeda leaders and control cells are believed to be in many nations, if we would maintain our focus we can accomplish this with very little loss of life and most any nation will be glad to help. I would like to get rid of Saddam too, but there really is very little evidence (made public) that he helped or is helping Al-Qaeda.
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<br>Logistically any operation's tail ends in the US. But you need bases in the theater for those supplies, you can't have the supplies being issued immediately upon arrival in a protracted war. The critical end of the logistical tail, the end most easily severed, needs to be as close to us as possible, not out in the Suez Canal or the Straights of Hormuz.
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<br>I feel the American public is the weak link today. I doubt that we could afford (in the realm of public opinion) to wage a 3- 4 year war overseas today. Even if we had to wage this war in Afghanistan against those we KNOW are responsible for over 3000 American deaths, I doubt we could maintain that level of resolve. It seems to me that many have forgotten that life is not a TV show and if it was it would resemble All In The Family a great deal more than The Cosby Show. Things don't always work themselves out quickly, and sometimes not for our benefit.
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<br>Just more ramblings,
<br>Bob
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I like your ramblings, they are very astute, and just happen to mirror mine. You know what they say about great minds. LOL
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<br>We need logic here, not emotion. The minute you let your emotions take over in a fight you wiil lose, cool heads will prevail and planning and preparation go a long way towards final victory.
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<br>As too the American public, they are mostly interested in cake and circus' not the reality of war.

As to Sadam I honestly don't know. I do know that he has chemical weapons and has used them. He has biological weapons but it is unknown if he has used them. I sure as heck don't want to wait until he has nuclear weapons to find out if he will use them.
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<br>As to the kids today every generation thinks that the one coming behind it has gone to hell in a hand basket. You can find old Greek writings from the BC time that express that. The kids today are no different from the WW1 vets saying anybody that would dance the Charleston was bound for perdition yet that generation did pretty well in WWII. Or saying anybody that listened to rock and roll/heavy metal was worthless tripe but they did good in VietNam when they were allowed to fight on their own terms. Same thing today, kids have a different outlook and a different value set and most adults don't think it is as good as theirs. That is natural even if wrong. Push comes to shove I believe the younger generation will do ok just like they have always done.
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<br>And that's all I have to say about that -----Forrest Gump
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<br>BCR

BCR. I am impressed with today's young in the service. I have seen them on visits to my nephew on Post in two differnts locations, they are sharp and professional. They can do what is necessary if they have the proper support.
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<br>Again, I just don't want them wasted like we were in Vietnam.