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I own 3 22-250s with 1 in 12 twists and have always planned on doing a fast twist barrel chambered for the AI version whenever one needed a new barrel but now I have the itch to just punch out one of my 1 in 12s for the AI. I would like to hear the pros and cons of the AI from people who have been there, is the velocity gain and brass life worth the effort of fireforming brass and essentially loading for for two different rounds?
thanks for the input
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Here is Ackley's article on the Improved cases; http://www.shootersforum.com/wildca...te-about-ackley-improved-cartridges.htmlAlso "The Varmint Hunter Magazine" just ran an article on a fast twist (1-9) 22-250. very impressive velocity from a standard un-improved cartridge.
One Ragged Hole! The quest for accuracy continues.
Bob the nailer
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thanks Bob,
reading the link you posted makes me want to simplify my life and keep shooting vanilla 22-250's. When the time comes to re barrel I may just screw a fast twist tube on with a standard chamber.
I would still like to hear other peoples takes on this
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I'm not an authority on the subject but I've had more fun with the 1-8 twist with 69-75gr and a 1-12 twist standard with 50-55gr than I did with the 1-12 AI version.
AI is just another option not necessarily an improvement. JMHO!
"Camping places fix themselves in your mind as if you had spent long periods of your life in them.
You will remember a curve of your wagon track in the grass of the plain like the features of a friend."
Isak Dinesen
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Been shooting the 22-250AI for more than 20 years, if you have factory barrels more than likely they are 1-14" not 1-12".
I still have 2 slow twist 22-250AI's in my gun safe but to be honest I would never build another unless it is a 1-8" twist, with a 1-12" or 1-14" twist shooting 55 grain bullets the 22-250AI offers very little over a standard 22-250. with a 1-8" twist my favorite combo is with a 80gr Berger VLD. it offers a solid 200fps gain.
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I shoot three different 22-250 AI's. One is a factory varmint contour barrel re-chambered to the AI version after several hundred rounds. The other two are fast twist versions with one in a sporter contour in 1 in 8 twist and the other a varmint contour barrel that was a cheap take off formerly chambered in .223 which now is a 22-250 AI twisted at about 1 in 7.75". All shoot very well and there is no issue with shooting either factory or reloaded 22-250 ammo in the AI versions if the chamber is properly cut. All of mine have been cut by Jim Kobe who posts here as Jkob. I do not push the velocity to the max and have many loadings on my brass with out trimming or problems with primer pockets. Accuracy while fire-forming either factory or reloaded ammo has been excellent in my rifles. Shooting similar pressure loadings in both factory and AI versions gets about 100 fps greater velocity in my rifles based on my chronograph. Primary reason to AI is for increased interval between trimming IMO. Fast twist still works well with 50 -55 grain bullets for me. I have not tried 40 grain bullets in the faster twists but have had excellent results with 75 to 90 grain bullets with the fast twists. Don't think there are many downsides to the AI versions but do not know about the very lightest weight bullets.
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22.250 AI = 220 Swift. Simple
Swifty
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I did an 8 twist in plane old 22-250. I wanted the heavier bullets, not the additional speed.
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fast twist 22-250 is cake, fast twist 22-250 AI is cake with icing. Just got to decide if you want the icing.
I like icing (grin)
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22.250 AI = 220 Swift. Simple Well not really.....amazing how you can be a fountain of misinformation at times.
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hey boat anchor,
I just compared Nosler #7 and Sierra #5 and Swifty's comments are pretty spot on based on those two published sources. What is the support for your position that he is spouting misinformation? Please enlighten us all about your superior knowledge if you can.
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22.250 AI = 220 Swift. Simple Amazing how you can open mouth and insert foot most of the time  About 1937 a man named Gebby and an associate, J.B. Smith completed the work on the wildcat 22-250, simply the 250 Savage case necked down to .224 with a 28 degree shoulder. Some years later, P.O. Ackley increased the 22-250�s case capacity by re-forming it by almost eliminating its body taper and giving it a 40 degree shoulder. Case capacity essentially duplicates that of the 220 Swift. This text is based on information from �Cartridges of the World�, Hodgdon reloading manual, the cartridge designer and/or own resources.
Last edited by Swifty52; 04/15/14.
Swifty
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Damn just Damn, Must of scared him off. I was really looking forward to this debate. 
Swifty
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22.250 AI = 220 Swift. Simple
Apples=Oranges. Simple While the 22-250AI and 220 Swift are similar in powder capacity and both shoot 22 caliber bullets they are very different in how they appear and what powders they like and how they react to different bullet weights. Apples and Oranges are both fruit of similar size but have different skin, color,taste etc.......simple for a simpleton such as yourself.
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Damn just Damn, Must of scared him off. I was really looking forward to this debate. Not a chance BITCH
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![[Linked Image]](http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing021.gif)
While the 22-250AI and 220 Swift are similar in powder capacity and both shoot 22 caliber bullets they are very different in how they appear and what powders they like and how they react to different bullet weights.
Apples and Oranges are both fruit of similar size but have different skin, color,taste etc.......simple for a simpleton such as yourself.
Ignorance is bliss, and you are extremely blissful aren't you LARRY.
Swifty
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I own 3 22-250s with 1 in 12 twists and have always planned on doing a fast twist barrel chambered for the AI version whenever one needed a new barrel but now I have the itch to just punch out one of my 1 in 12s for the AI. I would like to hear the pros and cons of the AI from people who have been there, is the velocity gain and brass life worth the effort of fireforming brass and essentially loading for for two different rounds?
thanks for the input Sure it's worth it. Velocity gain in real terms - actual working accuracy loads and not reloading manual numbers - will be 200 to 300fps depending. Fireforming is no "effort", just find the most accurate load and go kill stuff.....that load will be considerably faster than a std 22-250. You'll obviously be using more powder. And the barrel will have the same accuracy as before, only faster. One thing though, the barrel will need to be set back at least enough to cut a new throat and neck, and also remove all the std chamber taper right to the web. The 12 twist is fine unless you want to shoot real heavy bullets.
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Ignorance WOW... Schity52 this is just how I thought you would look staring into the mirror talking to yourself
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Fireforming is no "effort", just find the most accurate load and go kill stuff.....that load will be considerably faster than a std 22-250. No it wont be, while fireforming you can make very accurate loads but they will be slower because of all the energy lost in blowing the brass out to fit the chamber, they are slower than a std 22-250 in every situation with reasonable pressure
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Swifty
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Fireforming is no "effort", just find the most accurate load and go kill stuff.....that load will be considerably faster than a std 22-250. No it wont be, while fireforming you can make very accurate loads but they will be slower because of all the energy lost in blowing the brass out to fit the chamber, they are slower than a std 22-250 in every situation with reasonable pressure Yes it will be. Work up an AI fireform load starting at top end for the std. cartridge. Accuracy will be with more powder and it'll absolutely and for sure be faster. My best ever 22-250 load is a 50  3925. A 22-250AI fireform load will be 4000-4100 with 50's.
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Which is exactly the velocity you will get with a Swift shooting 50's. Curious isn't it?
In fact toasted a tube launching 52's @ 4050 - 4100 w/ AA 2700
Last edited by Swifty52; 04/17/14.
Swifty
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Which is exactly the velocity you will get with a Swift shooting 50's. Curious isn't it?
Curious, I don't know. Then get another 100fps with formed brass.
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If you look at the history of the caliber, the 22.250 just didn't have the juice capacity to get a 48 grain bullet out the tube @ 4100 fps safely or it would have been the Swift. Didn't cut the mustard. Ackley just rectified the short coming.
22.250 AI = 220 Swift.
Swifty
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If you look at the history of the caliber, the 22.250 just didn't have the juice capacity to get a 48 grain bullet out the tube @ 4100 fps safely or it would have been the Swift. Didn't cut the mustard. Ackley just rectified the short coming.
22.250 AI = 220 Swift. If YOU look at Dude270's original post, he was asking about the 22-250AI. Go argue somewhere else.
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Fireforming is no "effort", just find the most accurate load and go kill stuff.....that load will be considerably faster than a std 22-250. No it wont be, while fireforming you can make very accurate loads but they will be slower because of all the energy lost in blowing the brass out to fit the chamber, they are slower than a std 22-250 in every situation with reasonable pressure Yes it will be. Work up an AI fireform load starting at top end for the std. cartridge. Accuracy will be with more powder and it'll absolutely and for sure be faster. My best ever 22-250 load is a 50@3925. A 22-250AI fireform load will be 4000-4100 with 50's. I'm afraid that boatanchor is correct, ANY fireforming load will be slower than the std cartridge because more energy is used in blowing out the cartridge to fill the chamber. I use this method for 22-250AI, 257BobAI and 375Weatherby, not once has my chronograph shown an increase in velocity, in fact the exact opposite is true, a decrease of more than 100fps or more is normal. How do you get more powder into the original case for fireforming, just curious? Every book I've read suggests using a faster than normal powder for sharper pressure build up, this also reduces velocity. Cheers.
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Well Rigby......you and boatanchor really don't get it. This isn't difficult stuff to understand. Fireform loads are slower if you load them like a std. cartridge. But you don't, why would you? The case blows out quite a bit to fill an AI chamber. So you start at topend for the std case and go up to find best accuracy. In this cartridge my powder is RL15.......if you want to go by what a manual says, top end 50gr load for the std. 22-250 is at 36.0-36.5gr. The best ever 22-250 load for me is with 37.5gr and a 50 3925, 24" factory barrel/chamber. In an AI with 25" custom barrel/tight chamber, fireform load is 38.5gr of RL15 and a 50 going a bit over 4100. With formed brass add another 1 gr powder (depending on what the gun likes) and get about another 100fps. The 257 case blows out a lot to become an AI. I don't know what you're doing with yours, but fireform load in mine is with considerably more powder than what a manual says is top end for the std. 257. Velocity is considerably higher also, but this a heavy 28" barrel with tight neck chamber and definitely not a hunting rig. Point being that an AI fireform load uses more powder and is significantly faster than the standard cartridge. My other AI's, same thing. Fireform loads are well above what's top end for the standard cartridge.
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Well Rigby......you and boatanchor really don't get it. This isn't difficult stuff to understand. Fireform loads are slower if you load them like a std. cartridge. But you don't, why would you? The case blows out quite a bit to fill an AI chamber. So you start at topend for the std case and go up to find best accuracy. In this cartridge my powder is RL15.......if you want to go by what a manual says, top end 50gr load for the std. 22-250 is at 36.0-36.5gr. The best ever 22-250 load for me is with 37.5gr and a 50 3925, 24" factory barrel/chamber. In an AI with 25" custom barrel/tight chamber, fireform load is 38.5gr of RL15 and a 50 going a bit over 4100. With formed brass add another 1 gr powder (depending on what the gun likes) and get about another 100fps. The 257 case blows out a lot to become an AI. I don't know what you're doing with yours, but fireform load in mine is with considerably more powder than what a manual says is top end for the std. 257. Velocity is considerably higher also, but this a heavy 28" barrel with tight neck chamber and definitely not a hunting rig. Point being that an AI fireform load uses more powder and is significantly faster than the standard cartridge. My other AI's, same thing. Fireform loads are well above what's top end for the standard cartridge. You are saying me and 416 Rigby really dont get it......... I am saying you are a LIAR and full of Schitty52, it just does not work that way. I also live in Utah and own an Oehler 35p chronograph, if you can prove your claim of a fireform load with a 50 grain bullet going 4100 fps I will apologize to you on this forum. If you come up short you have to admit on this forum that you are a lying piece of Schitty52. PM me, lets make this happen btw: earlier I stated reasonable pressure (like 65,000psi) 100,000psi is not acceptable but would be hard to imagine in a fireform load
Last edited by boatanchor; 04/18/14.
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my ai forming,24" barrel,55g is 3850 fps with 5/8" groups or better, yet to find the down side of the ai after owning 8 regular 22/250's over the years
150-200+ fps, no fl sizing, no case trimming
what part of the above is hard to hard to understand?
Last edited by keith; 04/19/14.
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Yeah I'm saying neither of you get it. And calling me a liar........Larry Root you azzhole, seeing you would really p*ss me off.
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A 22x47 Lapua is another viable option. Just a simple resize and go. Already a 30� shoulder with no fire forming needed. And you will get swift+ performance from it.
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my ai forming,24" barrel,55g is 3850 fps with 5/8" groups or better, yet to find the down side of the ai after owning 8 regular 22/250's over the years
Keith and I built our first 22-250AI's around '89 or '90 after an article by Ross Seyfried. At that time a pretty standard fireform method was to fill the case with W760 to the mouth and seat a Sierra 55BTHP. Sounds crude but it worked fine and was surprisingly accurate. Even in a cut-back rechambered Rem chromoly barrel the velocity was about 3850 with a 55. I formed 900 cases that way. BTW-I'd used that same barrel as a std. 22-250.....most accurate load with the same W760 powder and Sierra 55BTHP was at 3550-3600.....not the fastest and certainly not high pressure, but the most accurate.
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If you look at the history of the caliber, the 22.250 just didn't have the juice capacity to get a 48 grain bullet out the tube @ 4100 fps safely or it would have been the Swift. Didn't cut the mustard. Ackley just rectified the short coming.
22.250 AI = 220 Swift. Swifty, In my Swifts, I shot the 50's at 4000 with a charge of 44.0-44.5g of 2700 out of 26" barrels. The really nasty part of shooting a swift is case growth, trimming, full length sizing. In the 22/250 AI, it seems to be a magic cartridge in how it takes the pressure without the need for full length sizing and case growth(forget case trimming). In a 26" barrel, I shot the 50's at 4150 into very tiny bug holes, same with the 55's at 4050 fps, 60 & 65g at 3650-3700 fps. There is no down side to the 22/250 AI, it is a HUGE improvement over a 220 Swift. If you love the Swift, then get an AI'd Swift!
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my ai forming,24" barrel,55g is 3850 fps with 5/8" groups or better, yet to find the down side of the ai after owning 8 regular 22/250's over the years
150-200+ fps, no fl sizing, no case trimming
what part of the above is hard to hard to understand?
I am not saying there is a downside to the 22-250AI (that would be Schitty52). I currently have 3 complete 22-250AI rifles my own reamer and dedicated fireforming barrel. The part that is hard to understand is your buddy claiming he can shoot fireform loads at 4100fps.
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Yeah I'm saying neither of you get it. And calling me a liar........Larry Root you azzhole, seeing you would really p*ss me off. Obviously the Larry Root thing is from the [bleep] up mind of Schitty52, you want to be p*ssed off thats fine. you want to prove 4100fps from fireform loads I can get access to the range in Hobble Creek canyon next Sunday....then we can determine who the azzhole really is. bring keith and his rifle too.
Last edited by boatanchor; 04/19/14.
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Yeah I'm saying neither of you get it. And calling me a liar........Larry Root you azzhole, seeing you would really p*ss me off. Obviously the Larry Root thing is from the [bleep] up mind of Schitty52, you want to be p*ssed off thats fine. you want to prove 4100fps from fireform loads I can get access to the range in Hobble Creek canyon next Sunday....then we can determine who the azzhole really is. bring keith and his rifle too. You're not getting it. I don't like you. You're an azzhole and it doesn't matter what you believe.
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You are just like a spoiled child, try and point out where they are wrong and then they throw a vitriolic tantrum, when you get above a 14 or 15 year old maturity level you might want to re-explore this topic.
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There's the azzhole....vitriolic prick calling it on someone else. Nothing to explore about this, you just don't know what you're talking about. Try doing something different and learn. Don't give me sh*t about what I do.
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Swifty
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Before you take off your Clown outfit please do another half-azzed powder comparison.
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Time to put-up or shut-up, sure you have plenty of excuses not to put-up (you hate me, I just dont get it,you are wrong, you are wrong etc.) offer still stands for Sunday. come show me I dont know what I am talking about and that you can teach me something new
or..............shut the f@&! up.
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You give yourself too much credit. You're ignorant and too dumb to realize it. Your posts have proven that. Want to learn something, teach yoursownself. You're delusional thinking anybody would waste half a day for some dipsh*t they don't like. What you believe or don't believe isn't important.
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Time to put-up or shut-up, sure you have plenty of excuses not to put-up (you hate me, I just dont get it,you are wrong, you are wrong etc.) offer still stands for Sunday. come show me I dont know what I am talking about and that you can teach me something new
or..............shut the f@&! up. LMAO !!!!!!!!! Why don't you just make a bet with him Larry. That way you can just renege on it like you did with Bricktop. You are just an idiot for thinking that anyone on here gives a chit what you say or do.
Last edited by Swifty52; 04/24/14.
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You are a Clown, This is what a Clown does. Not really a breaking NEWS flash.
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im ignorant and too dumb to realize it. I agree, you should stamp this on your forehead to warn others !! OUT on this topic......... you and schitty52 can keep playing if you like
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im ignorant and too dumb to realize it. I agree, you should stamp this on your forehead to warn others !! OUT on this topic......... you and schitty52 can keep playing if you like Now he's trying to be clever. Playing a little jr highschool change-the-quote game.
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boatanchor,
Back on April 14, I politely asked you for support for your position that Swifty52 was spouting misinformation when he stated that the 220 Swift and 22-250 AI were equal. I cited two published loading manuals that suggest the performance level of those two cartridges are,in fact, reasonably similar. For the last two weeks you have ignored my question and gone on a pizzin contest with others and refused to answer my question.
Do you have anything positive to offer in support of your statement or are you just interested in pizzin contests?
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"...fourth worst is the .22-250 Ackley with a 55 gr. bullet at 3850 fps. The factory .22-250 gets 3680 fps, which means the Ackley only gains 4.6% over the factory round "
TRUMP- GABBARD 2024
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boatanchor,
Back on April 14, I politely asked you for support for your position that Swifty52 was spouting misinformation when he stated that the 220 Swift and 22-250 AI were equal. I cited two published loading manuals that suggest the performance level of those two cartridges are,in fact, reasonably similar. For the last two weeks you have ignored my question and gone on a pizzin contest with others and refused to answer my question.
Do you have anything positive to offer in support of your statement or are you just interested in pizzin contests? My guess is he doesn't want to answer. Mid 70's early 80's we used Swift data for the 22.250 Ackley. Used what ya had, snail mail ya know.
Last edited by Swifty52; 05/05/14.
Swifty
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,424
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,424 |
Chilluns, chilluns, chill....
Let's not forget a couple of things about the 22.250...it DOES stretch a little. It IS pretty warm for a 22 bore, Ackley or not.
Overall, however, there's really nothing wrong with going AI especially if you get a better chamber or even a fresh throat with a re-cut. And if you are going to go with a faster twist and more bullet, the extra room allows more slowish powder.
Besides, Ackleys just look cool.
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,394
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,394 |
"...fourth worst is the .22-250 Ackley with a 55 gr. bullet at 3850 fps. The factory .22-250 gets 3680 fps, which means the Ackley only gains 4.6% over the factory round "
This stuff is always funny. Someone using quotes from somewhere to back up something that they otherwise don't know about. What matters is most accurate velocity, actual working load. Percentage gain? Only thing that matters is what's coming out of your gun, not theirs. My most accurate/fastest ever 50gr. 22-250 load is 300fps slower than my most accurate/fastest in an AI with 1" longer barrel.....both using the same powder and primer. Comes out to about a 7.7% gain.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 721
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 721 |
Out of my prized Rem 22-250 VSSF Version 1 I am pushing a 50g NBT at 3800fps over my chrony with a generous helping of Varget with great accuracy. This is my go to load for everything.........
...............xcept when I get a wild hair. I've looked at the 220 Swift and a 22-250AI but then I just throw a bunch of RL-7 under a 35g Hornady NXT and it runs an average of 4329fps again over my chrony. Then I start to think about how much I love that barrel and go back to the first load.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,394
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,394 |
Out of my prized Rem 22-250 VSSF Version 1 I am pushing a 50g NBT at 3800fps over my chrony with a generous helping of Varget with great accuracy. This is my go to load for everything.........
...............xcept when I get a wild hair. I've looked at the 220 Swift and a 22-250AI but then I just throw a bunch of RL-7 under a 35g Hornady NXT and it runs an average of 4329fps again over my chrony. Then I start to think about how much I love that barrel and go back to the first load. Next time you get a wild hair, might as well shoot the 24gr Hornady.....it has a terrible low BC also but only just a little worse than the 35 and at 11gr lighter you could really get them cranking. In my thrown-together junkyard dog Savage sporter truck gun, the working load is a good slug of RL15 and 50BT's @ 3925 with repeatable accuracy in the .3's and .4's. The fastest working load I've had in a std. 22-250. I looked at the 22-250AI in the late 80's and had to have one. Working load for that cartridge is a healthy dose of RL15 and 50BT's @ 4200 to 4247, depending on which gun. I'll choose the AI every time.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,709
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,709 |
To boatachnor's credit he did PM me and we had a civil exchange of information and opinions. I now better understand his original comments, but still think the 22-250 AI and the 220 Swift are reasonably similar in performance.
I shot a Rem 700 VS 22-250 for over two thousand rounds and then had the barrel chambered as a 22-250 AI. The primary benefit was to eliminate the need for trimming since I tend to load the AI version relatively mild rather than push it. I used the same brass for the AI version and now have at least six loadings on over 700 brass without trimming.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,366
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,366 |
I notice a lot of this when reading posts about AI and fast twist rifles. Especially the .224 bore size.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,196
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,196 |
I have a new Lilja 26", 12 twist in 22/250 AI with zero freebore.
My current load is with the 55g Nosler at 4050 fps and the 60g Nosler at 3700 fps, very tiny groups.
I neck size the cases with the above loads and will never have to trim them either.
...for what it's worth
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