Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats .358 Win project question

Getting ready to send off my Mark X action to have it re-barreled into .358 Win.

Question - what barrel length? 20? 21? 22? something else?

That is really hard to say, without knowing your overall goals. I tend to not go down to 20" except for special projects.

Have you thought about sending the 30-06 barreled action you have off and having it rebored into 35 Whelen? That would be much cheaper than a new barrel. And you could always load it to .358 velocities.

B, years ago Francis Sell made up a .358 win on and HVA action.. He was an Oregon blacktail deer hunter.. He went with a 20 inch barrel, but he was hunting very heavy cover.. I cut my 7mm-08 to 21".. for hunting woods it is great.. But I have lots of long range rifles for open country..

I went with 21" and have no complaints. The .358 is pretty efficient with the larger bore diameter so you'll loose less per inch than you would with a .308, 7mm, .243, etc..

I built a .358 on a LA MK X and had a Douglas 23in barrel put on by IT&D. I handled like a normal 270, 30-06 built on that action. It shot a little over half inch groups w/TTSX 200gr bullets. I built it like that so I could cut some off if need be. We hunt from stands in Texas and it was not hard to get around... so I left it. A good length for brush hunting to me would be 21in and it is one of the more popular lengths on the board. powdr

Here's a little more detail:

95% of my hunting will be from the hill country west here in Texas. Shots range from >100 yards to over 600. Most of this hunting is from box blinds or taking a seat on the ground. The primary goal of this rifle is a solid 300 yd (or better with practice) rifle that will hold it's umph out to those ranges.
Game will primarily be whitetail and axis with a possibility of an Addax.
Out of state hunting will SE NM for mule deer and Idaho/Wyoming for elk and mule deer. Thinking of either the 220 grain or the 225 grain Sierra's or Nosler partitions

While the .358 Winchester may be one of my favorite chamberings that I have used since 1966 I do not favor it at all for longer ranges.

I leave the 358's behind and use a rifle with more long range ability.

The 30-06 is the standard. I have also used a 7mm RM since it came out. Those are a couple of suggestions.

I already own a 300 Win Mag. If I truly need to reach out an touch one, that's most likely what I'll be carrying. However, the 358 is entirely capable of taking game out to those ranges.

My 358 Model Seven is one of my favorite handy rifles. I have never found the 20" barrel to be lacking in any way though the cartridge does lose some steam out yonder. This bull was well beyond 200 yards when I drilled him twice. I was not especially impressed with either bullet or what it did; (too much GOG involved. ) But it did work!

I own four bolt rifles in 358 Win. 3 of them have a 20" barrel and the 4th is a 21" barrel. Haven't taken any shots out past 80 yards on deer size game.

Ken

I had a Mark X re-barreled to .358 Win. It was accurate with 225 grain partitions but had some feeding issues. My gunsmith suggested changing it to .35 Whelen. It feeds that round very well, is accurate and gives me an extra 200 fps. I like it better.

On that action I'd personally think long and hard before going with a 358, I'd lean towards something built on an 06 case. One thing you could do is run some 308 cases through to check feeding (if it is an 06) before committing.
I'd also worry about balance with a short barrel on that action and would think hard on 22". I am also not a fan of short/fat barrels on hunting rifles. (just like women!)

bBear with your criteria you just perfectly described a 338-06. powdr

That is a big part of the reason I suggested the Whelen as well. The Mauser feeds great with a case with the right dimensions, but the fixed mag box means you have few options to improve the feeding on a case shape it does not like.

I'd just buy a 6.5 Creedmoor, 7/08, 260, or 308 and go kill stuff. Even a 270. If you want a custom short action, carbine efficient, perhaps a 338 federal, but if you take many shots at long distance, you will have to dope drop, and hope your bullet expands and hits vitals.

My son dumped his deer in Texas at 300 yds with a 243 w 85gr....

The 338/06 is a hammer, 200 Nosler at 2900+, in my experience it kills deer as good as a 6BR, the latter what I used at 400 yds on my longest Whitetail kill.

Since asking for personal opinions on barrel length (and not asking for all the replies one what round you "should" use) I, myself would go with the 22 inch.

I find 2 inches "extra" barrel unnoticeable in handling between 20 and 22 inch but if I were to push the 358 out to longer ranges the small amount of extra velocity gotten with the 22 inch barrel would get my nod for ME and MY use. 2 cents.

I, also, would study my down range velocities and keep shots under whatever yardage I still had 1800 fps plus (minimum) for bullet performance with bullets of choice. I personally feel "safer" with 2000.

What any round will or will not do has more to do with the shooter than energy for the most part but bullet performance is mandatory for constant knock downs (IMHO).

There is "always another round that someone else thinks is superior". We all build and shoot what we like or else we would all be shooting the most powerful round out there....after all they "kill better".

No offense intended to a single poster but dayummmm fellas. The guy asked about barrel choices for a 358 win (and I have to wonder how many have taken game WITH one, whom replied).

The "books" don't tell the entire story, don't include one's preferences in all things that go bang and KE is not the holy grail by itself. ...........IMO from 50 years of shooting.

God Bless

FWIW, a .358 on that action would certainly allow you to use the 225gr ABs, and have no COL issues. IF you can push it to 2600fps, this is what I get for #s:

yd. in. fps. ft-lbs.
50 0.448 2493 3105
100 0.983 2391 2856
150 0.006 2289 2617
200 -2.651 2190 2396
250 -7.146 2092 2186
300 -13.489 1999 1996

I use one of my .358s, similarly, though I don't push it that hard, and only count on about 2450 fr a 20" tube, but it still should get me to 300, with less energy, but less fuss. I don't feel a need for 2000 FPS or 2000 ftlbs for a deer or hog, with a 200+gr .358 pill.

If I was sitting on your action for a build, it'd be hard for me not to build another 22-23" 7x57 or maybe a 280/AI, for shooting from stands in TX. A new 'dream' 358 build would have a 20-21" tube and a mannlicher stock. I really think you can get all you want or need from a .358 in a 20-21" bbl, whereas a Whelen will make it's hay somewhere at <22". JMO

"Here's a little more detail:

95% of my hunting will be from the hill country west here in Texas. Shots range from >100 yards to over 600. Most of this hunting is from box blinds or taking a seat on the ground. The primary goal of this rifle is a solid 300 yd (or better with practice) rifle that will hold it's umph out to those ranges.
Game will primarily be whitetail and axis with a possibility of an Addax.
Out of state hunting will SE NM for mule deer and Idaho/Wyoming for elk and mule deer. Thinking of either the 220 grain or the 225 grain Sierra's or Nosler partitions"

SO OP - do you plan to take shots to 600 - with the 358?

Steve, how much incremental fps do you see per inch, and how does that impact trajectory?

If set on a 358, the 225 Sierra is the only bullet I would run in a 358, a Partition is a great choice and if close shots on Elk or Big Bears is a good one, esp in a 350 RM or Whelen or anything faster.

I had a M77 350 in SS, shot those two bullets great, the Sierra will expand and retain, and penetrate very well. Built for a purpose, big game.

My buddy had to buy it after hammering a nice 10pt WT, but if I did again, I would buy the same rifle, and chop to 20 or 21. That is the max I want in a short action 35. A 19 would not be out of the question. I would expect 15-20fps max per inch from 19 > 22, and to me, that would not mean squat downrange in performance.

I just got my 700 358W in A Wildcat stock back from the smith. I went with 22" on the bbl as I have shorter guns to use if needed. I thought that if I didn't like how it handled, I would get it shorter later, but I don't like anything shorter than 20".

The 22" feels fine. That 35cal hole takes out a lot of metal on the sporter contour so the balance is right there.

Here are a few 358's to look at :



Remington 700 20" / 600 21" / Model 7 SS 20"

Ken

One more which I just finished mounting into a McMillan Mountain Rifle stock with standard barrel channel purchased from Rick.



6 pounds 15 ounces as pictured. 20" barrel.

Ken

Nope, 2 more inches wouldn't give anyone A LOT....regardless of cartridge, just saying IMHO....for MY use, I would get what I could from the round SINCE using it for longer shots were indicated. If one runs even 100fps faster comparisons it shows little increase....same goes for BC of the bullet and FOR MY USE, I don't give a rat's patoot about BC, not unless I had some kind of need to shoot over 500 yards....which I wont.
Bullet placement and bullet performance (hense the speed notification on impact above earlier) are my ONLY concerns. Trajectory to normal ranges isn't a big deal.

I'm old enough to recall highly published hunting authors saying it flat out that shots over 300 yards were "not smart" (to put it nicely. They said it a bit more cruelly.) Few can read the wind and distance well enough to HABITUALLY take shots on big game.

I don't tell anyone what distance they should take shots..also regardless of cartridge and could go on for paragraphs about few being able to take such shots unless they have practiced such in variable situations (lighting, wind speed/direction etc etc) using hunting type rest styles. All I can offer is "I wouldn't" There are more consistent shooters out there but I'm no slouch.

Not my place. Shoot or not....hunter's choice just like what round they use.

I wouldn't PERSONALLY take super long shots (for me) with a 358 but then again I wouldn't with a 6br either.....not for deer or bigger. IMHO the 6br being compared to a 338-06 was my chuckle of the day. Not even in the same stratosphere as far as game taking ability.

I don't particularly care for long shots on big game, LONG being over 300 yards and flat wouldn't over 400.

Just old fashioned and 100 yards is a whale of a lot more fun, 200 is "normal" and a little effort to GET shots in these ranges isn't a big deal. Part of why it's called "hunting" and not just "shooting"..again, ONLY IMHO.<-----

I also like bigger bores than most and will take it over high speed lazer trajectory dink bullets anytime. Others feel differently and that is their right and their option. I don't argue the point.

If one caliber and one velocity range met everyone's requirements we'd all be shooting the same round. Wouldn't THAT be boring. :-)

Simply was offering my opinion in regards to the question asked going by MY preferences as food for thought.

No desire to create a hub-bub so wont reply again. Had my opinion and offered it. The original poster decides and I offered my opinion on the barrel length in said round.

God Bless and good shooting
Steve

BTW, IMPRESSED with your battery of bolt guns firearms44!
That restocked 600 fiddle backed Rem bout made my heart stop!

SWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!

Since we're doing pics now ......

I like pictures. I sure as hell wouldn't be taking 600 yard shots with a 358 Win.

At one time I considered buying a Remington Model 798 in 308 when they were being liquidated a couple of years ago and having it rebarreled to 358 but never got around to doing so.

Mine, on a pre-64 M70, goes 21".

I have a .358 win BLR Lightening, it has a 20" barrel, I am not sure of the twist. It is very fickle with what loads and projectiles it likes.

The 225 gr game king is best in my rifle followed by 225 partition, but the 225 AB groups like shot gun scatter.

I am confident taking shots on large deer out to 250 with this rifle but even at that range your shooting a rainbow, if you truly want to shoot at the ranges you say I would not be using the .358 win.

I've never gotten the 'rainbow' remarks about the .358, or putting longer than 22" tubes on one. It's no more a rainbow than any 308, 30-06, 338 federal, or 35 Whelen, with same weight bullets. ...but I'd agree that it's not really built for working past 300...but neither are many 'flatter' shooting cartridges that go under 1200ftlbs.

Steve ( and those that actually answered my question on barrel length) I thank you for your information and your comments regarding the original question.
For those that misunderstood my comments, I believe I stated that the intent was NOT to take 600 yard shots "The primary goal of this rifle is a solid 300 yd (or better with practice) rifle that will hold it's umph out to those ranges. " but rather to stick to 300 yards and less.

The purpose of the 358 is to fill a niche in my arsenal that already contains center-fire calibers from .17 up to 300 Win Mag. It is also to give me a bit more thump one only one end of the rifle. An extra 200 fps won't make the difference and why get a caliber that everyone else thinks is the cat's meow?
The 358 is a good cartridge within the parameters I've laid out. My question, as Steve692 stated, had only to do with barrel length, not what the barrel was drilled for.

I again would like to thank those that took the time to answer my original question. My action is off getting a 22" barrel screwed on.

Steve692, I don't know what part of the hoosier state you're from, but I do miss my time up there!

Load the Barnes 200 gr TTSX and the rainbow goes away some and 250 is easy. We killed a couple of truckloads of critters in Africa with said bullet. My warthog was dropped at just shy of 250 holding right on his back line.

What powder....

I've got a Ruger 358 LNIB tang safety 358 and it gets 2750fps w/53.3 of Norma 201. I would not hesitate to shoot a deer at 300 yards w/my set up. 22inch barrel and Zeiss 1.8-5.5x38 about as perfect a package as I can imagine in 358. powdr

I will stick with the load that I developed for the rifle I tried most .35 cal bullets ( not the Barnes though ) and the Game Kings stand out of bunch

The load I have is 50.5 gr of ADI 2208 compressed with a 225 game king loaded out to maximum mag length, gives 2550 fps and the best groups in my rifle

""I again would like to thank those that took the time to answer my original question. My action is off getting a 22" barrel screwed on.""
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I think your going to really like your choice.
My Sako .358 has a 20" and it's just a bit muzzle light, which makes it fast to handle - but it doesn't hang as well as I like.

I'd be way more concerned with how my rifle balanced, than if I can squeeze a few more FPS out of it.....

300 yards is easily doable. My last elk with the Sako was a Roosevelts cow at 257 yards. A single Sierra thru the lungs and thats all she wrote.



That dark "bump" below my gloves is the spent bullet, just under the hide.

Interesting rifle .... Any more pics or info?

Paul

My Browning BLR runs a 225 PT at 2450 with W748. Pretty good load and I have no issues banging steel at 300 yards with a 200 yard zero on the rifle. It is a handy rifle..

Good luck with your build. The 358 Win is a great cartridge.

Bbear - sure you will be happy. 35 is a potent caliber.

Re: 338-06 vs 6BR - on deer both are deadly.

As to my suggestion to use a smaller bore - to 300 yds they are very lethal and if a longer shot presents and you don't want to pass it up, a smaller faster round is easier to place your shot.

Balance is important. 20" may be too muzzle light if one uses a standard sporter contour. I would personally use a #3 Bartlein contour. In 35 it will be lighter than say a 7mm.

Enjoy your 35. I really liked my 350 n 158 pistol bullets for plinking n were fun to 250 yds. Dropped like bricks past that. Vaporizes milk jugs at 200yd.

270-08 is how I'd roll............

Early 60's issue. Originally in .243 win, I had it rebored to the .358.


Another view. It's got a few elk to it's credit.

Very nice. I always thought a full stock 358W would be the perfect combo.

Too Remington wouldn't do the Custom Shop MS in 358.

A Sako mannlicher is a nice carbine, as was the Model 70 Custom "Ultra Light" Mannlicher 19" bbl.

Scott - yes the 6.8-08 would def be flatter and lethal

There's just something about slipping through the heavy timber for elk with a .358 Win and a stout 225gr up the spout...

I think it's called confidence :-)

The 27-08 has been on my radar for decades... I finally let it go when I bought a really nice Browning low wall in .260. Been sleeping better ever since.....

How 'bout a 250 for stout?

Dat'il do it !

I see more bullets on your bench than we have at Sportsman Warehouse !

A 358 would definitely not be my first choice for 600 yard shots. Not even on the list. If I were bent on a long range 35 caliber, it would be a 358 Norma or something similar. I also would not be shooting a 225gr bullet. Not enough BC or SD to carry enough FPE out to 600 yards. It would have to start at 250gr minimum, and more would be better, and have a long boattail and ogive - a "VLD" profile.

Strange times we live in. Some stuff is quite hard to find. My thing is that I never buy one-of-anything and have a pretty good stash down there. 24lbs of Varget on hand and currently only use it in my 375. Gonna try it in the 358 with some RE15.

A 225 NP at 2,600 (TAC) is a 400+ yard cartridge.

Skip the SE NM for mule deer. That state's deer herd is really, really, bad -

I'm thinking the newer, long ogive bullets, like the 225 AB and 250gr stuff are about all a short action magazine can handle. Seating longer in a longer action might do better with those, but I haven't put any of my longer pills together to check yet. I'm no expert, but have always thought actions length was about all that kept a 358 off of the Whelen, not so much the case itself.

An optimum woods rifle is what the .358 Winchester is.

Chamber it in a short action rifle that's handy to carry and shoot and it's optimum for tough shots in the forest.

The two rifles at the bottom of the picture are .358's.

I'm thinking that the 225's are really the best medicine in the short action .358's. They utilize the powder space and mag wells efficiently, while keeping speed up. Properly constructed 225's will do everything necessary - once the bullet exits the game animal, I don't care what it weighs....

Off hand I can think of 6 elk killed with that rifle, 2 with the Sierra and 4 with Noslers. All the Noslers exited and went bye, bye. Both Sierra bullets were stopped - one in the spine and another in that old cows shoulder.

Lets face it. If you want (need?) to shoot past 300 yards, the .358 isn't the best option out there. You don't need one to kill a deer either, but that's hardly the point.

If the OP wants one, he should make one up. Brass is cheap and simple to make. It's an easy cartridge to load for and a ball to shoot!

The AB's are to long for a BLR mag unless you load it down to fit the bullet further into the case, I have a heap of 250 gr partitions that are to long as well and will be saved for a future .35 Whelen

I would agree with that. My stash of 250s are left over from a couple 35Whelens and a 358NM. I'm gonna shoot em up in the 358W and see how they work.

I'll have to ask Bellm, or measure the throat in my .358 Encore barrel, to see how far out I can seat those 225 ABs. That's one application where the 358 is better than the Whelen AND COL isn't critical for mags.

Careful where you point that thing.... It's gonna kill stuff !

I'm not usually a huge fan of manllicher style rifles, but that is a good lookin rig.

Congrats.

Not all full stocked rifles look good. Some look "butt heavy" or just stubby all around.

I love the old Brno F series from the 40's and 50's. Ruger's 77 RSI is another that I like - but the barrel is too short for me...

I read way too much of Wooters writings when I was a kid. I drooled over his Sako carbine in .308 and decided that I needed one too.

I found mine at a gun show and got a good deal. My boys shot a couple of deer with it as a .243, then I had it rebored to .358 as a dedicated elk rifle.

This is another cow elk, taken with a single 225 Nosler.

And thanks for the compliment.

That's a beautiful rifle! Rifles laying over dead elk always make great pictures!

Pretty TAC'y... No critter, large or small survived.

Beautiful animals and rifles!

Maybe its already be written, but if not I think the Winchester short action would make a much better .358 than would the Mark X action. One of those little Custom Compacts with the short action would make a perfect .358.

Edm;

Gorgeous rifle!

I forget which action it's based on??

Can you break down the build for me?
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22WRF;

I agree!

Did the dog die at the hands of your 358 too, or is he just sleeping in the sun while resting against it?

You guys needing 358 brass ????? PM me.