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I recently tried the method John describes in obsessions of a rifle loony for annealing cases. I put the neck and shoulder area in the flame of a candle and held onto the case just ahead of the case web area (I was doing 6br brass so I held a little farther back than described in the book since the cases are so short) and dropped them into a wet towel when they were too hot to hold. I didn't get any discoloration in the neck or shoulder area after I was done so I fear they didn't get hot enough. Is the discoloration after annealing a sign of a properly done job or are my cases ok? I would appreciate some input from someone with experience in this method of annealing.
Thanks

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I don't use a candle for annealing but instead a propane torch. I hold the case being annealed between a thumb and fore finger and rotate it through the tip of the flame. I count "thousand one, thousand two etc up to thousand 7" and then remove it. With WSM cases I usually stop at "thousand six". These are about the limits of my ability to hold onto the cases and they do show a colour change when finished.

Works for me, YMMV.

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I use the AnnealRite system.

http://www.cartridgeanneal.com

With that said, it uses the Tempilaq 750 deg F paint just inside the neck to change color when it hits 750 F. When i'm annealing my 6.5x47 cases, which are similar to your 6br, it takes about 6 seconds for the paint color to change. This when 2 propane torches are aimed at the neck/shoulder junction. Not sure how comparable 2 propanes torches are to 1 candle.

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I use a drill, an extension, a socket, and a propane torch. Find a socket that fits the base of your case, insert the base into the socket, with the drill rotate the socket slowly over the propane flame and look for the color change at the neck/shoulder. Be careful - its not hard to overcook one. Drop it into a pan of water when the neck shoulder area start to turn color - not red, but you'll see it change color and reach a 'purple' - go no more.

I too tried to hold the brass case and didn't think I was getting it hot enough to do any good. The torch/socket method enables you to heat the case a little bit longer without getting burnt.


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Originally Posted by Dude270
.....I put the neck and shoulder area in the flame of a candle......I would appreciate some input from someone with experience in this method of annealing.
Thanks


Originally Posted by 1OntarioJim
I don't use a candle for annealing but instead a propane torch.


Originally Posted by GSSP
I use the AnnealRite system.


Originally Posted by bwinters
I use a drill, an extension, a socket, and a propane torch.



Does anyone bother to read the OP's question prior to formulating "the answer?"

I happen to use the Anneal Rite also. It gives the cases the "annealed color." Prior to that I used the candle method (same as the OP) and did not get the same color but I do believe the cases got hot enough because the method worked. New cases are generally annealed at the factory, yet not all exhibit the "annealed color" like Lapua cases for example so I'm not sure that color is a good indicator.

I'll be interested to hear John's response too.



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Originally Posted by Dude270
...dropped them into a wet towel when they were too hot to hold.


While we're waiting for JB to answer your question, I do this only for the first case to save myself a little pain.

I hold the case until it's too hot to hold while counting the seconds. Then I put a leather glove on my hand and hold the remaining cases for the same number of seconds.

FWIW, I don't see the Lake City color, either.

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I've settled on a slight variation of the candle method. I made an alcohol burner that doesn't produce soot so you can see the color change as you're annealing.

It's similar to this ...

[Linked Image]

The heat is not as intense as a propane torch, it gradually heats the cases just like a candle, and it does produce a Lapua like discoloration.

FWIW, I know JB has tested the candle method and it does anneal cases properly.


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Does your wife know you borrowed that?



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Thanks fish head - I have one of those downstairs for use on saxophone repair, but hadn't thought about using it for annealing...


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The "hold it until it's too hot" business always seems to me a lot like driving successively heavier trucks across a bridge until it collapses to determine its weight limit.


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Originally Posted by smokepole
Does your wife know you borrowed that?


My wife's name is Bubba and she made it for me. grin

A horseradish jar, a piece of tubing from an acid brush, some solder, and cotton string for a wick.

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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Dude270
.....I put the neck and shoulder area in the flame of a candle......I would appreciate some input from someone with experience in this method of annealing.
Thanks


Originally Posted by 1OntarioJim
I don't use a candle for annealing but instead a propane torch.


Originally Posted by GSSP
I use the AnnealRite system.


Originally Posted by bwinters
I use a drill, an extension, a socket, and a propane torch.



Does anyone bother to read the OP's question prior to formulating "the answer?"

I happen to use the Anneal Rite also. It gives the cases the "annealed color." Prior to that I used the candle method (same as the OP) and did not get the same color but I do believe the cases got hot enough because the method worked. New cases are generally annealed at the factory, yet not all exhibit the "annealed color" like Lapua cases for example so I'm not sure that color is a good indicator.

I'll be interested to hear John's response too.


Did you bother to read my post before you selectively quoted it? I referenced the method he opined on, gave my experience with the same method, then formulated my response to the issue he posted about - r.e. hot enough annealing temperature.

You did the exact same thing in your response................


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Originally Posted by smokepole
New cases are generally annealed at the factory, yet not all exhibit the "annealed color" like Lapua cases for example so I'm not sure that color is a good indicator.

Most ALL cases are annealed as the final step after forming. The telltale annealing ring discoloration comes right off with a bit of tumbling and/or acid washing.

Annealing is linear based on temperature. There is some degree of softening and recrystallization of the brass structure once that threshold is reached. Best I recall that's around 465�, and it gets softer and softer until it goes dead soft up around 1200� where it's ruined. (Don't have the exact temps off the top of my head.) In between there the extent of annealing varies with the temperature. So, you can have no annealing ring and still have some sufficient softening to prevent splitting the necks.


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Originally Posted by bwinters


Did you bother to read my post before you selectively quoted it? I referenced the method he opined on, gave my experience with the same method, then formulated my response to the issue he posted about - r.e. hot enough annealing temperature.

You did the exact same thing in your response................


That's really strange, I could've sworn you said you used a propane torch. As opposed to the OP's candle. Did I miss something?



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Originally Posted by 5sdad
The "hold it until it's too hot" business always seems to me a lot like driving successively heavier trucks across a bridge until it collapses to determine its weight limit.


I believe with the candle you're relatively safe, as far as over-heating the necks.



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It's helpful to anneal in a darkened room so that the eye can detect the subtle color change of the brass, and to keep in mind that a fully annealed state is not necessary or desirable for our purposes. The correct temperature is reached before the brass begins to change to red.

All we are after here is keeping the brass in a non-brittle state of temper so that it flexes when expanded on firing, or when case forming, and that is accomplished at lower temps.

Practice on non-usable cases.


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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by 5sdad
The "hold it until it's too hot" business always seems to me a lot like driving successively heavier trucks across a bridge until it collapses to determine its weight limit.


I believe with the candle you're relatively safe, as far as over-heating the necks.


My concern is with the fingers.


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Mine too. That's why I use the Anneal Rite.



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Originally Posted by GSSP
I use the AnnealRite system.

http://www.cartridgeanneal.com

With that said, it uses the Tempilaq 750 deg F paint just inside the neck to change color when it hits 750 F. When i'm annealing my 6.5x47 cases, which are similar to your 6br, it takes about 6 seconds for the paint color to change. This when 2 propane torches are aimed at the neck/shoulder junction. Not sure how comparable 2 propanes torches are to 1 candle.

Alan


I use the AnnealRite and it takes 2.5 seconds to turn the 750 Tempilaq inside the case mouth on Lapua 308 brass. Wonder why the big difference? Six seconds seems like a long time. I notice in the AnnealRite video it is taking him approximately 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by bwinters


Did you bother to read my post before you selectively quoted it? I referenced the method he opined on, gave my experience with the same method, then formulated my response to the issue he posted about - r.e. hot enough annealing temperature.

You did the exact same thing in your response................


That's really strange, I could've sworn you said you used a propane torch. As opposed to the OP's candle. Did I miss something?


Yeah it is. Pretty sure the question was whether the lack of a color change using the JB method constituted a properly annealed case. Am also pretty sure I answered in my opinion and preferred method - having done both. Apparently, I didn't phrase my response to your satisfaction.


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I'm pretty sure the method the OP described uses a candle. The "JB Method" uses a candle. If you think a candle is the same as a propane torch as far as the speed with which it heats the brass or the temperatures yielded, that's not my problem.



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As far as the original question goes, I usually do not see a color change from the candle method. Now, how much annealing is taking place? Who knows, but the cases are obviously softer when I trim/chamfer and I don't split necks, so it must be working.

I did have to laugh at all the answers you got about how to anneal NOT using the candle method. I'm sure that helped you immensely.


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To the OP:

I only started annealing a few years ago and my method is a propane torch and a small container of water.

My guess is that you are close to being perfect. Remember that a fast rate of cooling is nearly as important as the temperature. You want to freeze the alloy in an amorphous state.

I worked in a solder factory for a number of years and saw a lot of similar situations with copper alloys. It was hard keeping 3 shifts running the same amount of this or that, but the quality of the end-product remained high. I once did a study of the annealing of our wire and found a huge difference between the inner parts of a spool and the outer (we're talking 500 lb spools). However, the wire that came off the spool ended up being equally workable.



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Originally Posted by shaman
Remember that a fast rate of cooling is nearly as important as the temperature. You want to freeze the alloy in an amorphous state.


As far as rifle cartridge brass goes, this runs counter to what I've read in a couple of different places, from people who know their stuff including JB and the instructional video below from Anneal-Rite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXLPGcSNyUs



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I'm not JB

But I suspect I've annealed well over 100K 223 cases over the years.

Propane torch, spin em in my fingers in a dark room until I see the red color coming on which is also getting fairly hot to my fingers, drop in bucket/bowel of water on the kitchen table.

Never had a problem. And I had to have good accuracy and case life for my uses.


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dropping the cases in water will not hurt but it is not necessary to stop the heat suddenly for cartridge brass...


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I previously spun them in my fingers, but for the last several years do it differently. I made a simple shell holder with a deep socket and spin it in a cordless drill. I anneal it with a propane torch in a dark room until the neck just begins to change color. It then get dumped in a dry bucket, no quenching here. Propane torch here as well. Works well for me.


Last edited by RollnBones; 04/19/14.

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Just got back from a hunting trip and have several comments:

1) NO, THE CANDLE METHOD IS NOT MY METHOD. I have repeatedly written that it was developed by Fred Barker, who wrote an article for Precision Shooting about using Tempilaq and hand-holding the case over a candle to develop an uncomplicated method of annealing that works.

Fred did NOT say it was the fastest method, but he did enough testing to make sure it worked. He also did NOT adjust the hold according to the length of the brass, because all finger-holding it does is assure the case head doesn't over-heat. Holding any case halfway down works, because the method "adjusts" for the length ad thickness of the case.

2) If you want to anneal faster a torch works better, but the color of the brass (either during or after heating) is a poor indicator of success. Both tend toward over-annealing. Any sort of temp-indicator paint works better.

In fact cartridge brass can anneal at 500 degrees if heated long enough. The 700-750 degree temp usually used is where it anneals fastest--but if you heat it too fast it will also tend to over-anneal and become too soft, because the zinc in the alloy starts to melt out. That's why the neck/shoulder area of over-annealed brass tends to change color.

Some factory brass is somewhat over-annealed, because a softer neck allows the brass to be loaded more times before it requires annealing. But that doesn't mean softer brass will be more accurate than brass annealed not as soft, more frequently.

3) The only reason for water-quenching is to keep the head from over-heating and hence annealing. If you stand the HEADS of cases in water it won't, and it also won't if you hold it halfway up the body and drop it. But there's no reason to quench the neck after heating.


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Wow. I stand corrected.

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John

Thanks for the response and the good info. I hope you had a great trip.
This thread got pretty out of hand, I'm glad you set the record straight. Sorry if I started people thinking this was your personal method, I posted that you described the method in your book, guess I shouldn't have been so obtuse.

Thanks again

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Brandon,

No problem. I always mention that Fred Barker developed the method and published an article about it, but people still tend to call it my method, probably because more people have read my writing on it than Fred's lone article in a small-circulation magazine.

Brass is interesting stuff, one of the few metal alloys that doesn't require quenching after annealing.


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