Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting National Forest Land and Outfitter Camps: Hunting Etiquette?

Google Earth is too good. If you use it, you know that. The resolution keeps getting better every time its updated. With that, it is easy to find big outfitter camps. Even under tree cover, its hard to hide multiple canvas wall tents from the eye in the sky.

I recently found a good size camp not far from the place we hunt. 3 miles away, but in the next drainage over. The area they occupy is good elk country, and in an area I have considered hunting on foot.

What is the etiquette of hunting the same mountain where you know an outfitter camp exists?

I'm not talking about walking up to camp to share coffee and talk hunting. I mean hunting the same general mountain. Little pocket meadows,and bigger mountain meadows within a mile of the tents. What is the etiquette? This is all national forest land. Do you give them a cushion? If so, what distance?

Have you had encounters with outfitters/hunters from the outfitter and how do you handle this situation?

Hunt where you may, its public land........

Just because they set up a tent there doesn't mean they are the only hunters entitled to the area...That's what private leases are for.

If I have ever ran into an outfitted hunter in the woods I didn't know it.

I would tend stay away from purposeful close encounters. That said, if I had any camp within 3 miles of mine, we are going to hunt some of the same areas as I tend to roam a fair bit. I've run into outfitter guys a few times. They always seem surprised that someone would walk 3-5 miles.

The other thing I would do with that new found bit of knowledge is use the other guys to push elk to me. I'd set up a bit in natural terrain funnels to catch elk movement away from the other camp - especially if it was full of people. A bunch of movement/hunting around a camp with a campful of guys will move elk away from the camp. I'd also look at nasty/thick/steep areas in proximity to the other camp - might find elk hiding in those places.

If I see orange, I act accordingly. That might mean move to another area, or try to get in a spot where they'd push critters.

I'd hunt on top of a camp if need be. Hunters shouldn't be there during daylight, anyway. (Grin)

My experience has been, around here anyway, an outfitter has ZERO respect for your camp if you are near an area they want to hunt.
I have had outfitters "pass" me with horses to get to a drainage first. If I see you, or evidence of you on the trail in front of me, I turn around and find another spot.
I "get it", they have paying clients to satisfy.....but it still doesn't make it right.
The river guides are even worse. You catch a fish that they see...they will pull in above you and "sit" in the run, then if you go above them and return the favor....you are about to exchange pleasantries....


I know this is painting with a broad brush.......but a lot of guides feel that a public spot is somehow "their" spot.

Not to hijack your thread, but I have something closely related. Have hunted an area 3 of the last 5 years. Twice w/bow and once w/rifle. There is an outfitter nearby and he has put treestands up on every waterhole in the area (14 that my partner and I have found).

Problem is that they are chained up and left year-round to "claim" the spot so one of his guides says. We have gone in there spring and summer and they are always up. Only rarely do we see a hunter at one in season.

So what do I do? Put my own stand up, (maybe in a tree right next to them) or find a new area? It is ALL National Forest.
John

Report that to the nearest NF office or take them down. anything left on public land maybe confiscated by NF personnel.

I have been in both situations. I hunt in ML season near an outfitter that I know. If there are hunters in her camps. I don't hunt close, but a mile is not considered close. If there are no hunters, I might hunt within a few hundred yards. An outfitter's permit is valid for 100yards surrounding the camp in CO. Meaning it is their leased spot.

I have also met outfitters who think their permit areas entitle them to exclusive hunting rights. If they complain to me I tell them to go to hell. Generally though outfitter client or not, if they get there first, I go else where. Sadly I have found the reverse is not true.

It's illegal to leave them up all year. And it's hogging the resource. But if you report him and then hunt those same spots, that could lead to some interesting discussions. If I were you and wanted to hunt a spot like that, I'd put up my own tree stand. If they came along and questioned why you were hunting "their" spot, you could just say that you'd been scouting there in the summer and you were aware that the stands were left there all year, so you knew they weren't put there recently and assumed no one would be using them. That would let him know you're onto him, and if he was smart he'd back off. If he pressed the issue, then I'd report him.

As far as the OP's question, it's really your judgment call. Like WS said, if the shoe is on the other foot, the outfitter is not going to cut you any slack and leave you to hunt an area.

So I'd base your decision on whether you want to hunt in an area that's being pressured by his hunters. Also, if I was near his camp and there was anyone there, I'd stop in and say hello, make his acquaintance, and let him know where you're hunting. It can't hurt, and if he knows you're over there he may choose to hunt elsewhere. And one day you may need some help from him.

or use theirs...

Personally, I wouldn't do that because then they would be justified in asking you to vacate their stand.

It takes all kinds.
I have had an outfitter go out of his way to tell us the location of some elk he thought we would be interested in.
On the other hand I�ve had an outfitters guide complain that he had hunted this area 20 years, he felt his territorial rights were grandfathered in, didn�t like where our spike camp was located, and on and on. What really frosted me was that he picked on a young rookie hunter from my camp to voice his gripes.
The conversation went a little different when I confronted him.
I actually got on well with the outfitter himself but his guide made me bristle.

Outfitter vs outfitter � I was on a fishing charter where our outfitter was very territorial about his secret spot. When he saw a competitor�s boat in �his� part of the Pacific he stopped guiding us and began making high speed passes close to the competitor�s fishing boat. Neither boat�s clients appreciated that.

Not outfitters but other camps.
I�ve had good results by going to a nearby camp and offering to stay clear of them. I�ll ask them if there are areas they want us to stay out of. They appreciated that. Our camps began to help one another. Both camps had successful hunts.

Great topic BTW - Thanks for posting it.

The outfitter's camp is from 2 to 3 1/2 miles from the spots I have hunted. I reported the year round stands to a Game Warden in Sept 2011. Nothing has been done. My friend and I are hesitant to cut any down for fear of starting a war.

Nonetheless elk tags are getting harder to come by, and a good hunting spot even harder. Don't think we can put up with this for much longer.
John

It is not a wilderness area. They drive in everyday in pickups or 4 wheelers.

I hunt near a friendly outfitter and have for several years. If I find myself in an area the guides are hunting, I move to another area. Their guides do not always return the courtesy. If that happens, I continue to hunt the area. The outfitter has actually told me that it is a National Forrest and I was welcome to hunt anywhere I wanted to. But the "law" is simple, the Outfitter has a lease for their drop camps, it extends for 100 yards. Hunt where you want, but it is clear from your post that you are a responsible hunter. Give the guides respect and it has been my experience that they will as well. (Mostly)

If it's USFS land like you mentioned earlier, start calling the USFS LEO.

You need to report it to the forest service, not the game warden. He has nothing to do with the use, only wildlife.


I'd be in there in the summer taking them down and then leaving them at the NF entrance or close. If there is a forest service office, I would take them there and do a little scolding for them not doing there job.

As for not wanting to start a war. We all do what we have to do, be sheeple or assert yourself standup for the laws.

Leaving them up year-round is definitely against the rules. The rules vary somewhat from state to state and from Forest to Forest but, generally, anything left in place for 14 days is removed if Forest Service personnel become aware of it. I believe that some of the Forests in heavily used parts of Arizona will remove anything left unattended for more than 48 hours.

If you see signs that an area is being used by game, there is no reason that you cannot put up your own tree stand.

Inviting a confrontation may not be the smartest way to approach a situation with an outfitter and guide(s) who know where to find your camp and vehicle.

It goes both ways. Them inviting a confrontation with me might not be the smartest.

Yup, a confrontation between two armed parties deep in the woods is always a good thing. Especially when you're outnumbered.

Tactics! My dad told me that chance favors the prepared.. No, need to wait another few weeks to see if I drew the tag. Otherwise this is all talk.
John

I've had horse camps act the same way. We hike in and sit on ridges that they want to run every day with the horses. They mostly just glare and keep on moving. Walking hunters on the other hand always seemed to be a jovial lot.

Who said I would be outnumbered?

OK, drop the "outnumbered" part and respond to the rest of the comment.

Turning tail and letting the other guy who is obviously breaking the law, never is right. Confrontation or not, armed or not, a person has to take action or he becomes one of the masses (sheeple)that let others push him around.
If the outfitter in question is armed and wants to go that route, I have no doubt I could handle myself in that situation if it unfortunately comes to that. I have dealt with those types of outfitters in the past and I'm still here. I have no idea if the poster can.

I have given the poster advice on how to handle it thru the forest service but if that does not work ,he needs to figure out what to do or not hunt that area.

Who said anything about turning tail and letting him get away with it?

One of my least favorite things about this forum is when people try to slant an argument by putting words in the other person's mouth. It's only the internet, but it's dishonest and a chickensh** tactic.

I know you gave the OP advice, and I did too. I think that your advice about taking another person's stands down was BS and wrong--that is messing with another person's property, and it's taking the law into your own hands, which is not a good thing. If you see a guy poach a deer in the backcountry, are you going to ride in and execute a citizen's arrest? When you see a guy weaving in traffic, obviously drunk, do you try to pull him over?

Even thought the outfitter is breaking the law,you are also messing with his livelihood by taking his stands, and that is 100% guaranteed to escalate the situation. You can go in with your guns blazing and all, but the last thing I ever want to do is have to shoot another man over something as trivial as a tree stand.

I've been in a similar situation, armed and confronted by a drunken dickhead (also armed)who I would have been 100% justified in killing with my pistol, and believe me, I could have. I never want to be in that situation again.

Well it's obvious that your advice and mine are at two ends of the spectrum. You do what you want and I'll do the same. I'd still take the stands down and turn them over to the FS if the FS won't act. That is not stealing

So the outfitter makes a living at it. It does not justify him breaking the law. That is indeed chickensh$$.

You said." That would let him know you're onto him, and if he was smart he'd back off. If he pressed the issue, then I'd report him. "


He already did that, with no response. If he was smart he would not leave them up all year, so you can leave that out of the equation.

To me that is turning tail. It's like "I'm going to go tell on you".

I stopped doing that in grade school.

End of discussion for me.

Yes, you're right about two ends of the spectrum. That's the good thing about this forum, a guy can ask for advice, get the whole spectrum, and make up his own mind.

The way I see it, if an outfitter hangs a tree stand where I want to hunt to "claim" the spot, the only way he's getting away with anything, and the only way it's affecting me is if I don't hunt those spots as a result. If I ignore his tree stand and hunt those spots, it's not affecting me, and it's really none of my business. Sure, I can report him, but that's as far as I'd take it--it's not my place to police the backcountry.

And that was my advice--ignore his stands and hunt where you want. And if he presses the issue, turn him in.

If I take his stands down, I'm placing myself in the role of law enforcement for something that is not affecting me. And I'm inviting a confrontation. That bothers me, smacks of a busybody who minds other people's business. Same as when I'm out walking my dog off the leash, he's not hurting anything or going near anyone, and some dickhead will yell "Put your dog on a leash." Yeah, I know it's against the law, but he's not hurting you or anybody else so MYOFB. When that happens I ignore the dickhead. But if he were to try and take the law into his own hands, he'd be inviting a confrontation and he'd get one.

Lastly, I agree that the outfitter hanging stands to "claim" a spot is chickensh**. That's why I'd just ignore his stands.

I wouldn't put myself in a position of having to draw down on someone for doing something that is just "chickensh** that I can ignore if I choose.

Around here a blind/treestand/etc on public land is open to the first one there.

So, if you're in someone else's stand, and he comes along and asks you to get out so he can use it, what would you do?

Tell him to f*#@ off.

If the stand is on public land it ain't "his stand" if he ain't in it.

Really? Just get in someone else's stand and tell em to ____ off? Never thought of it that way. Don't think it would fly with a lot of people though. I know that if you refused to get out of my stand that I would cut down the tree with you in it. See if you have the nerve to ride it down.
No, I think I'm going to wait till the drawing next week and if I draw then go scouting and if stands are still up then contact the Forest Service as someone else suggested. If no draw, well, wait till next year..
John

That's funny. You actually believe that just because it's on public land, it's not his if he's not it. Guess you could help yourself to the stuff in his camp too, if it's on public land and he's not there.

Yeah really.

What would a "guy" from Texas know about public land? You put a stand on public land here and vacate it, it becomes available to anyone. Ground blinds work the same way in the duck spots. Cutting the tree down on public land is illegal....with someone in it could be deadly (for you). Don't like it...take your stand down when your're done. Simple...even for a Texan. You see up here we've decided that some douchebag that hangs a stand thinking he's gonna' claim public land for himself is chit-outta-luck. Works good and keeps lazy Texans from ruining our state like you've ruined yours.

Generally speaking though in these parts we actually hunt. No corn feeders, tree stands or any of that other bull-chit you fellas call hunting.

Not only do I believe it...it's the f@$%ing law. Camps are a different matter. Treestands and blinds are all I'm addressing. Come on up and try it tough guy...you'll be schooled right quick.

You know nothing about me to start calling names like this. Now all I know about you is that you are very rude and on ignore.

I called you a Texan, nothing more nothing less....I can see why you're offended. A little sensitive? Don't cut my tree stand down bro...

Try what? Tough guy? What is your problem?

If I find a spot at noon, and hang a tree stand there to hunt that evening, and come back that evening to find you in my stand, I'm not breaking the law and I'll ask you to get out of my stand.

Would you have a problem with that?

I'd leave if that was the case and you were polite. I've never hunted in a tree stand (personal preference) but have hunted out of vacated blinds. I'd not leave a blind that you vacated on public land. There are guides that build some dam nice blinds and they know that they need to be the first one in it if they want to hunt out of it.

The law is not on the side of the person that hung it, but rather the person who is in it.

I would say that if it's my property and I'm doing nothing wrong, the law is on my side. If you got there first, you get to hunt the spot and I can't blame you for getting in an empty stand. That being said, I would want to get my stand and go somewhere else with it.

I'd throw them in the water but for fear game would get injured.

A 'stray' bullet will cut the chain pretty easily. Then they can be moved a little ways away where they might - and hopefully are - be hard to find. I even have some old lock I would donate to secure them to the bottom of a tree.


A few years back a UPS truck blocked me in. After waiting patiently for a while I got fed up. The UPS driver had left the keys in the ignition, engine running. I relocated the truck to a clear area about 60 yards away and threw the keys behind a box in the back.

Understood but once you vacate your property and don't take your property with you it becomes available for anyones' use. Just the way the law is up here to prevent one guy from allocating public property for one persons private refuge. Theoretically a guy could hang 25 stands over several miles and sew up a lot of public land.

The law is very clear and regardless of whether you agree with it or not doesn't change it. I've yet to come across a tree stand left on public land so apparently most folks understand the implications of vacating one.

I petty much try to avoid the vicinity of other hunting camps no matter who is in them. I figure there's more pressure there so I will go where the animals go to avoid that pressure.

However, if I did want to hunt near an outfitters camp on public land nothing would stop me from doing that. It is public land and the outfitter has no more right to it than I do. He has paid a fee for exclusive outfitting/guiding privileges NOT EXCLUSIVE HUNTING PRIVILEGES.

Tree stands are rare in Colorado Elk country, so it's not much of a problem. However, if I were to discover a tree stand on public land and I wanted to use it, I would consider that it has been abandoned and I would have every right to salvage it.

KC

I would agree up to a point, if the tree stand was actually "abandoned."

But not if a guy just left it up for a few days in a spot he was hunting. That's not "salvaging," there's another word for it.

Kind of on the other foot, but I know for fact that an outfitter or some of his staff that operates out of Gunnison went into a camp that had been left for others to use in the next season and took equipment and the notified the FS and they went in and took out what was left.

Smokey and saddlesore:

Interesting subject here. For the sake of debate, I'll turn things around from what I stated above.

Let's say an outfitter sets up a drop camp in late August, just before bow season. That camp is located remote from his base camp so it's not included within his 100 yard exclusive zone. He expects to put several hunters in that drop camp throughout the fall. So he leaves the camp in place for three months. I know that same Gunnison outfitter which ransacked the camp mentioned earlier does exactly that, and I know where some of his drop camps are located.

Now what happens if someone takes stuff from his drop camp? How's that different from what he did?

KC

If the FS goes in and removes stuff that is illegally left in the NF, they are enforcing the law, nothing more, nothing less.

If you or I, or anyone else does it, that's apples and oranges. You and I have no authority to enforce the law. So if we take someone else's property, it's stealing. If we take property that's left there illegally and for a spurious reason, then it's understandable, maybe even laudable. But it's still not ours to take, that job belongs to the FS.

If we take a guy's tree stand because he left it unattended for a few hours, that's just plain stealing, and it's wrong. Anyone can see that.

I'll turn it around and ask you the same question I asked before. If you see a guy poach a deer in the backcountry, are you going to attempt to detain him at gunpoint? If you see a drunk driver on the road, are you going to give chase and tell him to pull over?

No, you're going to call LE and let them do their job.

Smoke:

Good point. So the people that saddlesore mentioned who took stuff from someone's camp are thieves. Even if they notified LEOs later. Right?

KC

KC, you and I know nothing of what happened there or how it went down. But I do know this--if they took stuff, and notified LE about it later, then LE no doubt took the stuff off their hands.

I wouldn't call that stealing, and I wouldn't call them thieves.

On the other hand, if they kept the stuff, didn't mention that they had it and just notified LE that there was an illegal camp there, I don't think that's the right thing to do, and I doubt LE would think so either.

Do you?

Smoke:

You're right. We know none of the details regarding the incident that saddlesore mentioned except that he did say the camp was left there for someone else to occupy during a later season. What a disappointment for the second users when they arrived and discovered their camp was gone.

Thieving is obviously wrong. But where is the line drawn between theft and salvage? I guess that depends on how well an item is identified. If people are obviously planning on returning in a reasonable time, then whatever they left behind has not been abandoned and therefore cannot be salvaged.

But trashing the forest is also obviously wrong. Leaving a camp setup for months, leaving a tree stand in one place for months, setting artificial ground blinds and leaving them in place for months, are all examples of trashing the forest. It's the same as littering.

If an outfitter sets up a drop camp and leaves it there for three months, he is abusing his opportunity. The Forest Service limits the time that someone can stay at the same camp to two weeks. I think that's a good limit and I suppose that if someone were to leave one tree stand setup, or a camp, or an artificial ground blind for no more than two weeks it would be the same thing. I guess that would be OK with me.

Here's another issue to ponder. This fall I hope to get a second season deer tag for the same unit where I will be hunting elk during the third season. If I setup a camp just before 2nd season and leave it in place until after 3rd season then it will be there for over three weeks. Since that's longer than two weeks I should remove my camp after second season and set it up again before third season. What a PITA. It's the same as the incident that saddlesore mentioned. I think people were wrong to bother that camp. There's more than one way right way to look at a situation.

KC

That outfitter kept the equipment they took.I saw what the FS packed out.

Well, 14 days is 14 days, and technically you would be in violation of that regulation. However, I would assume that unless someone wanted to make an issue of it (a USFS LEO or another hunter complaining), no one would much care. I would simply query the District Ranger's Office and see if it is likely to be a problem. Chances are, they would say "go ahead" and they would have a reasonable explanation should someone else complain later. OTH, that forest or ranger district might have a "hard-ass" Recreation Officer or LEO. Finding this out in advance might avoid problems for you later on.

(Wish I had that problem!)

This is very interesting about outfitters and drop camps

http://outfittingbusinessforsale.net/?q=node/2

Then I agree with smokepole. They are thieves.

AND that thieving outfitter who ransacked someone else's camp also has some drop camps that he leaves in place for two or three months. How do you think he would feel if someone were to take some of his gear? What do you think he would do? He would scream that thieves had stolen his property even though they have done just what he did.

KC

I have had both good and bad experiences with outfitters on NF land. Some of them are great and polite.

Others, are not, to say the least. I damn near got into a fist fight in Idaho one time with an outfitter on "his" forest.

Regardless, I try to give the camps a fair buffer when I am hunting. They were there first, just as if it was a private party camping there. If I know there's elk close to their camp, I will hunt fairly close by though.

In Idaho, it's illegal to leave a portable stand up overnight. Permanent stands on public land are 1st come, 1st served. That doesn't mean the guy who put it up won't cause you problems, though.

Public land is just that and gear left on it is public as well. If the first guy to hang a tree stand on a water hole owned the place we'd all be hunting gophers. That's not to say it's cool to mess wth another guy's kit during the season. But here in AZ, you see old stands hanging for years.

I've sat in somebody else tree stand on public land before. Had they shown up I would have gotten out.

Common courtesy goes a long way in all aspects of life.

+1. Common courtesy, and common sense.

lots of people carry smart phones, or even video cameras while out hunting. Remember to take out your phone and record the confrontation. Even if your phone doesn't record the incident,it might take away some of the bravado.

If I found a tree stand hanging on NF land, I would avoid it simply from a safety perspective. How well was it hung? Is it tight enough? Is every attachment method duplicated in case on breaks? Are all the components in good shape (no rust, kinks, tears, etc)? No way do I risk my life to climb up in some knucklehead's tree stand.

My original question was not about getting in someone else's stand but that the local outfitter had put up a stand on every water hole in the area so as to keep hunters out. Doesn't really matter though. I did not draw the tag this year.
John

Google earth is only revealing if the shot was taken in season. Remember, those are not real time images.

If it's public, go wherever. My tangent would be an attempt to capitalize on their movements. I.e. out well ahead of them and sitting on likely crossing spots.

Last season out on the first weekend, I scored a bull with hunters in sight on 3 sides of me. I got there first.

Two seasons before, I unknowingly ended up pushing for some horseback hunters. They got there first.

On the stand deal. Pre pronghorn last year, a gentleman that interrupted Cookies photo efforts volunteered that he had three other water sources already equipped with inexpensive Ebayed blinds solely to claim turf. Her spot would be his fourth. He would put in the good gear the day before the season. A "Scissor Bill" in my book. If folks respected his turf, he essentially had exclusive use of about 50 square miles.

With that knowledge and a tag, I just might have spent the night before the season in my blind of choice.

Some folks are simply butt heads of the first order. We've had instances of folks tarping over water holes to force movement to an exclusive open source.

Sorry scopey for 2 things....first, I didnt mean to hijack your thread and even more so that you didnt draw. I didnt draw this year either. I just wanted to point out a safety issue.

Yea, Berettman, you are right about safety. Some of those stands have been up at least 5 yrs that I know of. Most are chained in though. Not drawing a tag is going to be more of the norm in the future though. Just have to put in more places. I was able to draw a cow tag in WY for November. wow. To think that I'm now willing to drive a thousand miles one way for a cow elk. guess I'm just desperate to hunt.
John

Nothing wrong with that, good luck in Wyo.

scopey58, at our age now and with the difficulty in drawing tags its not about trophy's or antlers any more. We were around when the hunting was grand and tags for antlered critters were abundant. I just want to hunt and get out into God's creation with whatever type of tool to hunt with. A lot of these younger fellows will never get the opportunities we had to hunt elk and deer every year.

Folks lets also remember that Texas is an awfully big State. A wonderful state to live in and be a native of. Not all of us so called Texans hunt from stands or on feeders. Here in West Texas there ARE not trees and no one puts out feeders either. It is mostly private ranches with mule deer and pronghorn and all spot and stalk. I'm not saying it's inexpensive to hunt but there is some good hunting. No whitetails out here. From what I've read Washington State is not very hunter friendly for drawing tags. Beautiful state though but a bit to liberal for my taste. Guess we'll have to stick to hunting NM,CO,WY,KS, or Montana! Good luck on your hunts this years guys and gals. Just Enjoy and be RESPECTFUL!

If a guy is hunting a water hole, I try to figure out how to set up on travel routes TO the water. These animals any more are real cagey and holed up in staging areas before going to water. They are usually very nervous at water holes and sometimes don't give you a great shot anyway. Why not let the hunters SITTING these permanent stands help you to score. Find the travel routes to water and let them walk by you and get the shot. I would report them to FS because it really hurts the tress for stands to be left up year round. If I find them in the summer while scouting I just cut the down and toss them in the a trash dump on the way out of the woods. All's fair in love, war, and spot hogging!!!

Fixed it for ya

This is actually quite simple... How much room would YOU like THEM to give you?

That is your answer. Give to them what you would want them to give to you.

Back many years ago I was in a similar situation. The archery hunters were cutting trees (NF) and building permanent stands and leaving them there, year after year. Along with various garbage and accumulation. On a snowy november day, several were hit by man cause lightning and burned up. They were not rebuilt.

One option if an outfitter is in the area is to go to his camp, introduce yourself, explain your hunt preference and see how he responds. If it works out, everyone's happy.
If it's not favorable, sneak back in when everyone's gone and piss in the coffee pot.

This has been my experience far too often over the years. They're making money on PUBLIC land, your land.

On public land, we all have the right to hunt equally. I think common courtesy should rule, though sometimes it does not. It can get a little tense at times when your way back and a pack string of guided hunters goes by you on the trail when you're hunting solo and the wrangler and guide all but threaten you to turn back "or else"� and all you've got in your hand is a recurve.