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Who is making light of other? Actually no one is, opinions and facts are being stated.



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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A light becoming a target for the bad guy to shoot at is pretty funny.

1-Going looking for bad guys in the dark is dangerous and there's a fair chance you're gonna get hurt. You better come to peace with that fact before you start. I see it all the time at work, people trying all sorts of stupid tricks to try and eliminate all the risk they can when what they need to be doing is getting to work and getting the job done. If you wanna be safe and not get hurt, don't go looking for bad guys in the dark.
2-Yes, a light in a bad guys face will hurt his eyes. But if you think that you can stop a determined aggressor with a flashlight you're wrong. Heck, half the arguments here are about pocket guns being too small.....A .380 won't stop a bad guy but a flashlight will? Gimme a break.
3-Unless you know what you're doing and practice it there are good odds that any light you use is going to illuminate YOU at some point. So holding it above or beside you is a good idea, but not one I'd rely on. The further the light is away from right in front of you, the more likely you're gonna catch splash from it and be lit up.
4-What are you gonna do when the bad guy gives up? You need to hold a light, gun and phone. Unless you've got a light on your gun.
5-The idea of holding a rifle with a light up and away from your body is stupid. As if Mr.Badguy isn't gonna figure out that someone is holding that gun that's mysteriously floating around in the air, assuming he hasn't already seen you from ambient light and died giggling.
6-All the theoretical situations people come up with usually ignore ambient light. No matter what flashlight you use, most people will be backlit the second they step outside their bedroom anyway.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
A light becoming a target for the bad guy to shoot at is pretty funny.

1-Going looking for bad guys in the dark is dangerous and there's a fair chance you're gonna get hurt. You better come to peace with that fact before you start. I see it all the time at work, people trying all sorts of stupid tricks to try and eliminate all the risk they can when what they need to be doing is getting to work and getting the job done. If you wanna be safe and not get hurt, don't go looking for bad guys in the dark.
2-Yes, a light in a bad guys face will hurt his eyes. But if you think that you can stop a determined aggressor with a flashlight you're wrong. Heck, half the arguments here are about pocket guns being too small.....A .380 won't stop a bad guy but a flashlight will? Gimme a break.
3-Unless you know what you're doing and practice it there are good odds that any light you use is going to illuminate YOU at some point. So holding it above or beside you is a good idea, but not one I'd rely on. The further the light is away from right in front of you, the more likely you're gonna catch splash from it and be lit up.
4-What are you gonna do when the bad guy gives up? You need to hold a light, gun and phone. Unless you've got a light on your gun.
5-The idea of holding a rifle with a light up and away from your body is stupid. As if Mr.Badguy isn't gonna figure out that someone is holding that gun that's mysteriously floating around in the air, assuming he hasn't already seen you from ambient light and died giggling.
6-All the theoretical situations people come up with usually ignore ambient light. No matter what flashlight you use, most people will be backlit the second they step outside their bedroom anyway.
You make some great points about the strengths and weaknesses about lights mounted on guns. Regardless of how it stacks up, I like a light on a gun out here on the farm because it makes it a lot easier to see your target when you've got varmints running amok.

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If I think there is someone prowling inside or outside of my home I am not turning on a light that gives my position away. I know my area even in the dark.



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That's pretty much my thoughts. A cop with a light is going into a strange place and has to see where he's going, I don't. I'm at home and know every inch by heart. In a hide and seek situation whoever gives away their position by turning on a light first loses.

Assuming there was something that made you investigate in the first place - most folks don't wake from a sound sleep and decide to do an armed search of their house for no reason, although I'm sure at least one or two here do. wink

Anyway, something alerted you. I figure it's best to sit tight and wait, ambush them if they become a threat. Or if you simply have to take a proactive stance, creep silently, stalk them in the darkness since you have the home field advantage. You know that they, or something, is out there - they don't know you've been alerted unless you do something to let them know.

Everybody will have a different take on this, but my job is to protect my life first and property second. If you hear them carting off your refrigerator and unbolting the doors, okay, they are occupied and you can go get'em. But I'm not particularly eager to go on a house clearing mission - I'll wait and blow them away from hiding if they get far enough in the house to present themselves as an immediate threat to me.



On a different note - the best burglar reactive defense I have heard of is a guy who wired several lights in his house into one switch just beside his bed. If he heard a noise or was alerted, he just flipped the switch and the living room and other places lit up. If someone was inside they immediately knew they were discovered and hopefully would vamoose, but if he had to go on a search and destroy mission he could stay in the darker areas and see out into the lighted areas.


Avoidance first, confrontation second. And if you must confront, tactics should be designed to give the other guy NO chance at all and stack the odds in your favor every way you possibly can.


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Originally Posted by Take_a_knee
NOT having a light on a nightstand gun is beyond stupid.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm a firm believer in them and IMHO, none of the arguments against hold water. Especially for my purposes. If I leave the bedroom to investigate a noise n the middle of the night, my wife is behind a locked door with a 12ga and her cell phone. ANYTHING that I might encounter will probably need to be shot. Obviously, no one arguing against them has needed to manipulate a firearm and a light at the same time very often.

Obviously, no one arguing that it makes you a target has ever been in the dark, with their eyes fully acclimated to the darkness and had a modern LED light shined in their face.

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Just do what manlicher did and get busy learning to maximize its efficiency in low light.

Shoot, move, shoot again.

Try to operate the light, turning it off and on by using your support side thumb.

Try to never use your trigger finger, or any other finger, as to prevent a sympathetic reflex discharge or making a mistake by accidentally pulling the trigger when you meant to turn on the light. In high stress, without good training and practice, dumb stuff happens. That's why I try to only use my off side thumb to work the light.

They are a stellar tool and great advantage when used properly.


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Originally Posted by tbear
While lights on handguns are cool they make for excellent targets.


Can someone direct me to any examples of this happening in a non military setting? Also with that in mind would the outcome have been any different if the officer/good guy was using a hand held light. I know we all like to think we are ninjas but the reality I see is that a weapon mounted light would be about the last thing to give us away if it is being used properly. If a bad guy is going to initiate an attack and is using the light as a target indicator there is probably enough back light to illuminate us regardless of where the light is mounted. Also it is rare to operate in total darkness, usually my flashlight is augmenting the available light and the opportunity to use darkness for concealment is not really there. Besides why is everyone assuming a bad guy will actually have the ability to hit where the light is? Generally speaking the average bad guy cannot hit crap once you get past a few yards. When a weapon mounted light is used properly it does offer many advantages that would not otherwise be available.

Recently I had to search an unfinished attic area, I was using one hand to hold a rafter to avoid falling through the roof. Needing one hand for a light and another for the gun would have made it a whole lot tougher.


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Originally Posted by Mackay_Sagebrush
Just do what manlicher did and get busy learning to maximize its efficiency in low light.

Shoot, move, shoot again.

Try to operate the light, turning it off and on by using your support side thumb.

Try to never use your trigger finger, or any other finger, as to prevent a sympathetic reflex discharge or making a mistake by accidentally pulling the trigger when you meant to turn on the light. In high stress, without good training and practice, dumb stuff happens. That's why I try to only use my off side thumb to work the light.

They are a stellar tool and great advantage when used properly.



As usual Mac is spot on. In fact our training with pistol lights is centered around only using our support side thumb to work the switch.


The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude


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We've got a good local pistolsmith, I'll go give him an earful. I'm a light on the gun guy.


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Well this discussion came up at work yesterday and I was shocked to hear a few cops repeat the aspect of "its going to make you a target".

It only took a few minutes of some force on force with airsoft and it was pretty quickly settled on backlight being pretty much identical regardless of where the weapon it. It is simply rare that a room is so dark your curtain of light is going to totally conceal you. Then we went into the tunnel and there was no question how much better the accuracy and rate of fire was using a weapon mounted light. After all we carry guns and point them at people because we might need to shoot them right??


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I'm bumping this thread to see if anybody has anything to add to this discussion.

After speaking to people whose opinions I respect, along with some other folks with actual relevant experience, my opinion on weapon-mounted lights is split. I think I'm going to mount a light on my nightstand gun but continue to carry a separate light while out and about.

My (probably flawed) reasoning:

1. Outside the home, I need light in many situations where I don't want to even draw my gun, let alone point it.

2. Outside the home, the bulk of citizens who need their guns are at extremely short distances from the threat and are planning to draw and immediately shoot. The attacker is already attacking. Turning on a light, any light, isn't going to happen.

3. Outside the home, I don't anticipate going searching for bad guys. (I live in town, and even on my own property, if I hear a noise outside or in the detached garage, I'll call 911 and sit tight.)

4. Inside the home, I don't anticipate going searching for bad guys. If we hear something downstairs (the entire family sleeps upstairs), I'll call 911 and sit tight.

5. Inside the home, if I do go searching, it will be after walking across the hall into my daughters' room, flipping on the light and taking attendance. (The only rooms upstairs are 2 bedrooms and a bathroom.) I know my house well and can move easily without light if I choose to do so. Plus there is a bunch of ambient light from outside street lights and porch lights. If I do need light, I don't mind pointing my light and gun at everything/everyone that I encounter.

I'm not sure that it makes a significant difference either way, but basically, given the layout of my house, I think the advantages of a mounted light outweigh the disadvantages. For inside the home, I think most of us would be better off making other preparations:

1. Have current eyeglasses on your nightstand if you need corrective lenses. Many contact lens wearers forget this.
2. Have shoes/slippers/moccasins next to your bed. Walking across linoleum/tile/hardwood floors in the dark and stepping on a lego or other toy, hurts.
3. Have a family safety plan in place. Rehearse it. If your hear somebody in your house, what is "Plan A" to protect everyone? What might make "Plan A" unworkable? So, what is "Plan B"? What is "Plan C"?
4. If everyone is upstairs, do you have a safe way to get to the ground in the event that a fire blocks the stairs? We're much more likely to encounter a fire than an intruder. A ladder, not a gun, may be what saves your life.
5. Keep a cell phone in your room in the event the bad guy takes the land line off the hook in another room.

Anyhoo, I enjoyed reading through this thread and would love to see some additional discussion.


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Lights can and are discussed to the end of the earth. They are greatly beneficial when you have to point a weapon and cover a threat. So beneficial in fact, that Taser builds the light into the unit itself.

But you will never meet anybody teaching tactics (that isn't retarded) tell you that a WML is a substitute for a handheld. The only time that would be the case is during the time you are clearing caves in Afghanistan, or clearing a crack house during the ride along your cop friend invited you to. If that is the case, by all means, feel free to point your weapon at everything that isn't your team mate.

As far as being a target, Bluedreaux and varmintsinc covered it. It's armchair if you're talking about home defense. You're going to need to illuminate your threat. Anybody that doesn't think positive identification of a suspected threat is important, should try and speak to that legless dude in South Africa.

I have heard all the debates regarding how to hold a light. First it was under the gun. Then it was to the side. Then some companies tried to make a few bucks selling a light that could be incorporated into your grip. Then people were told to hold high and away! Reason being, the perp may think you're the Green Giant and shoot that direction while you calmly use your light to illuminate the subject and eliminate the threat... And the best I have heard? Don't hold it high and away because most inexperienced shooters will drop rounds low and left due to trigger jerk and anticipation of recoil... Umm... yeah. Let's develop a tactic based on the assumption that our enemy sucks. No thanks.

Most people that use WML for a living will opt out of them for one reason and one reason only. Bulk added to the duty belt. That's a fact jack. Carry Batman's belt around long enough and you start finding reasons to not carry schit instead of reasons to carry schit. Not always of course. But very often this will be the reasoning behind not having one for day to day carry.

In the house? I like one on the pistol and one in my hand. The one in my hand is usually one of the kind that runs on a 6 volt battery. Yeah, the big ones with springs. They're cheap, light schit up nice and are big enough that your kids can't lose them. I put them all over the house for day to day use and in case of emergency.

I have put light on a couple people around my home. Every time I have done so it was with the Wal-Mart special. Which is how it should be. If the need arises to have a gun on that person, it is a very simple transition.

Last thought; if you are concerned about illumination and don't have tritiums, you're putting carriages in front of horses IMO.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
Lights can and are discussed to the end of the earth. They are greatly beneficial when you have to point a weapon and cover a threat. So beneficial in fact, that Taser builds the light into the unit itself.

But you will never meet anybody teaching tactics (that isn't retarded) tell you that a WML is a substitute for a handheld. The only time that would be the case is during the time you are clearing caves in Afghanistan, or clearing a crack house during the ride along your cop friend invited you to. If that is the case, by all means, feel free to point your weapon at everything that isn't your team mate.

As far as being a target, Bluedreaux and varmintsinc covered it. It's armchair if you're talking about home defense. You're going to need to illuminate your threat. Anybody that doesn't think positive identification of a suspected threat is important, should try and speak to that legless dude in South Africa.

I have heard all the debates regarding how to hold a light. First it was under the gun. Then it was to the side. Then some companies tried to make a few bucks selling a light that could be incorporated into your grip. Then people were told to hold high and away! Reason being, the perp may think you're the Green Giant and shoot that direction while you calmly use your light to illuminate the subject and eliminate the threat... And the best I have heard? Don't hold it high and away because most inexperienced shooters will drop rounds low and left due to trigger jerk and anticipation of recoil... Umm... yeah. Let's develop a tactic based on the assumption that our enemy sucks. No thanks.

Most people that use WML for a living will opt out of them for one reason and one reason only. Bulk added to the duty belt. That's a fact jack. Carry Batman's belt around long enough and you start finding reasons to not carry schit instead of reasons to carry schit. Not always of course. But very often this will be the reasoning behind not having one for day to day carry.

In the house? I like one on the pistol and one in my hand. The one in my hand is usually one of the kind that runs on a 6 volt battery. Yeah, the big ones with springs. They're cheap, light schit up nice and are big enough that your kids can't lose them. I put them all over the house for day to day use and in case of emergency.

I have put light on a couple people around my home. Every time I have done so it was with the Wal-Mart special. Which is how it should be. If the need arises to have a gun on that person, it is a very simple transition.

Last thought; if you are concerned about illumination and don't have tritiums, you're putting carriages in front of horses IMO.



Travis
My flashlight stash has been decimated by kids losing them and giving them away to friends. I bought this pack just yesterday at Sam's Club for twenty bucks. They WILL light stuff up and are much handier than the 6 volt lanterns you're hauling around. I can't speak for longevity. They take AAA batteries (3) though, and you can find them anywhere.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/led-flashlight-3-pack-with-batterie/prod11770317.ip?navAction=

Much wisdom in what you're saying about flashlight tactics.

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I'm sure those are good lights, but the reason I use the 6 volt variety is the same reason gas stations tie pipes and toilet seats to the bathroom key.

It's prison rules in my house.



Travis


Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Originally Posted by deflave
I'm sure those are good lights, but the reason I use the 6 volt variety is the same reason gas stations tie pipes and toilet seats to the bathroom key.

It's prison rules in my house.



Travis
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Nobody ever thinks about what they're gonna do AFTER they find a bad guy and that's where a WML really earns it's pay.

Find bad guy. Bad guy throws up his hands and hits the dirt. Now what?
Execute him and dig a shallow grave or call 911?

If you opt to call 911...try keeping a handheld light pointed at bad guy, gun pointed at bad guy and fumble with a phone. With a WML you can flip on the light, point gun and then carry on with business much easier.

I look for bad guys with a handheld. When I find them, the handheld gets put up.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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My flashlight stash has been decimated by kids losing them and giving them away to friends. I bought this pack just yesterday at Sam's Club for twenty bucks. They WILL light stuff up and are much handier than the 6 volt lanterns you're hauling around. I can't speak for longevity. They take AAA batteries (3) though, and you can find them anywhere.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/led-flashlight-3-pack-with-batterie/prod11770317.ip?navAction=

i use the same things around the house. I do have a glock 21 with a light on a rail, can turn it off and on, or it is touch activated as a night stand gun. I could never find a holster i liked for it. And I don't think i like the light on it that much anyway for a variety of reasons. It's there so if something makes it into the bedroom and avoids killing themselves tripping over the dogs i can light them up. But i have never liked providing an aiming point for someone.


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Nobody ever thinks about what they're gonna do AFTER they find a bad guy and that's where a WML really earns it's pay.

Find bad guy. Bad guy throws up his hands and hits the dirt. Now what?
Execute him and dig a shallow grave or call 911?

If you opt to call 911...try keeping a handheld light pointed at bad guy, gun pointed at bad guy and fumble with a phone. With a WML you can flip on the light, point gun and then carry on with business much easier.

I look for bad guys with a handheld. When I find them, the handheld gets put up.

thats probably one of the better ideas of all.


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