Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics VX3 vs Mark 4: Reliability of reticle adjustments

If a twister doesn't go NF, Hodnett recommends a Bushy HDMR.

The M24's replacement has a shidt and bendover. The original Leupy "M3 Ultra" had one-minute elevation clicks as that is the only way leupold could build a scope that would track. Some say that is still the case.

Ther you going my point. Which Leupolds, RD ?
And just who and how was this so called determination made that Leupolds don't track well ? I've seen no real testing done by anyone. Just opinions based on vague experiences by people who don't seem to understand that Leupold makes lots of scopes with a wide variety of applications. Nightforce, S&B and SWFA scopes are not made like that. E

I had the same thing happen with a Leupold 4.5x14 w/cds

That was my point. Those you mentioned along with the Bushnell HDMR and LRHS scopes are designed for heavy duty use. The SWFA SS just goes to prove that you don't have to spend over a grand to get a dead reliable scope although they are not light in weigh.





Take a couple of deep breaths, collect your thoughts and tell me what you are really trying to say down here in these posts from the same page of this thread.

From Terry Cross on Snipers Hide:

I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.

I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.

However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.

My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.

I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Tactical 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 Mk 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!

I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.

While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.

I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.

I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.

DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.

DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry.
TC

Answer from Lowlight on Snipers Hide.

Amen,

Every year they seem to get farther and farther away from what made them the company worthy of the reputation they have, which I personally feel is no longer warranted.

The shear number of them we see problems with is staggering, on military weapons systems no less. They seem to be completely out of touch with the shooter, all shooters, Civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military.

Unfortunately people still flock to their products based on the past reputation, regardless of the fact their current products don't hold up to that standard.

dave

The info I saw was regarding the MKIV scopes.

Jason

Dave,

A few years ago I was shooting with a bud one day and he brought his friend along. Turns out his pard just got a job at Leupold in design, but hadn't started yet. We discussed some different scopes, such as a true 1-4x as there was a lot of interest in the S&B 1-4x at that time. Also talked about other things Leupold, did and didn't do. He was excited to start his new job.

Next time I saw that guy he brought some prototypes for us to check out. He seemed excited to show them to us. I asked how the job was going and if he found out why Leupold didn't offer a true 1-4x and some other models that we were interested in. His mood changed and said, "I was told Leupold doesn't give a ffuck what the public or military want. We build what we want." He went on the say, "The old man still runs the show and what he says goes." I didn't ask anymore questions and left it at that.

Still like my FX-3, but I never cared for the older MKIV scopes and wouldn't spend the money on the newer MK4.

Jason

Jason
Some how I just dont find that surprising at all.
What dose surprise me is that people will put up with that level of build quality.

dave

After looking through both a Leupold VXII 3-9x40 and a S&B Klassik variable a few years ago, at a big 185" muley buck at dusk thirty, and easily being able to make out the buck with either, I wondered why people spend $2500 on hunting scopes. My buddy Big Al killed 4 bucks with that VXII totalling 776 inches, a 194 avg over the last 8 years. Imagine that......

This. I can afford any scope out there, but the old adage of a fool and his money are soon parted resonates...

awhile back I pondeerd on the merits of replacing a twenty year old Leupold VXIII 1.75X6X32 with a newer one in order to gain better optics. My "go to" 375 is my Model 70 that has two Safaris and about twelve animals to it's credit, including a buffalo at twenty five yards and a kudu at 350 at last light.
Unfortunately years ago I bought into the EAW over-engineered German BS so the rifle sports 1" rings (bastards want close to 300 bucks for 30mm rings!).
At the suggestion of some pretty savvy individuals, I went up in magnicifaction and put a Meopta 3.5X10X44 RD scope on it. Great scope with great optics but it is HEAVY (18oz) and frankly it looked likeshit on that rifle. I toyed about replacing the whole EAW setup but the receiver is tapped for them and I didn't want to fool with it. So I settled on a new Leupold as above and like I always do, ordered it with a heavy duplex. Aesthetically and weight-wise and given the type of hunting I do with this rifle, there is just no better scope out there for this rifle.

Night before last I took it out back to my leopard blind (a sprayed painted deer mottled with black paint and both my wife and neighbors thing I'm nuts). At sixty five yards I took my Z6 set on 5X and the Leupold the same (32mm v 42mm objective so I was trying to keep exit pupil size relatively similar). Last night I took out my Zeiss Victory T* 3X12X50 and again trying to keep things even (5X), I had similar results. Sure if I crank up the magnification they blow the Leupold away, but I am convinced one of the new comparable VX6s will hang in there at half the price.


I know a lot has to do with my brain "wanting" the Leupold to compete, but I have to tell you it did! Yes if I put letters out there the Z6 is crisper, but when it comes to just putting X hairs on an kill zone I frankly cannot see the justification for the almost fivefold difference in price.

What's the problem RD, can't you read ? Leupold makes a wide variety of scopes. Nightforce and S&B don't.
The SWFA scopes have never been tested against like priced Leupolds under the same conditions. Simple enough ? E

Really ? Leupold has been making the MRT line, which includes a scope like that for several years. Their 1.25-4X20 VX-R Patrol has been around for a couple of years now as well. E

Just answer my question then. You stated the VX3 and Mk 4 have the same internals ?

In a single independent test you're probably correct, however, if you check out some of the tactical forums you'll find tons of information by highly respected members of that shooting community who have repeatedly reported on the reliability of the SWFA SS scopes. That's the point that we're discussing here. Those guys don't give a crap about fancy trademark names, just real performance. Seeing how you've already quoted some of those gentlemen here, I suspect you already know the answer my friend.

Nothing has been more oversold than low light performance. But as Art LaHa once told me, "tom, it's not bullchit, it's promotion."

Sent my old VariX III into Leu for a HD reticle and did did an update on the adjustments...no charge. First class CS.

That being said, a guy has to have a lot of faith into the ongoing repeatability of his designated turrets while twisting at game, particularly those once in a lifetime type critters.

JG in some ways I agree, your buddy could probably have taken the same bucks with a $75 simmons. I think people are way too worried about how great the glass is, in riflescopes. binoculars are another matter all together. I personally see no point in the high end swaros or S&B's as a run of the mill hunting scope. its a waste of money. however what I do see spending money on is a scope with bomb proof adjustments that has the features I want.

this thread is about adjustment reliability, if anyone thinks leupold is all that great with turret cranking beit mark 4 or otherwise I suggest you haven't used that many of them or not used them as they were intended. Bryan litz demonstrates leupold tracking error on his applied ballisitcs videos. He measures out by hand with fish tape exactly 100 yards and uses a tall target test and some math. The next test is with a nightforce. you can see the tracking error. Doing tracking boxes and other stuff is hooey. no one adjusts a scope like that in practice. does it adjust up and down as it should thats pretty much all you need to know. leupold lovers, keep living in bliss what you don't know isn't bad.

Not going to argue with you CC with regards to the hard core turret twisting crowd, but (purely guessing) that number is minute compared to the numbers of hunters in the regular hunting crowd. The average hunter will never wear out a VX3, Elite, or Conquest. Too many of my hunters (plus me and Big Al's personal experience), who hunt all over the world, have rifles wearing Leupold something or other for me to buy into the "all Leupold's are horseschitt", horseschitt. I'm also not brand/blind loyal enough to think that all Leupy's work right all the time either, but then again NOTHING (dave7mm) works as is supposed to 100% of the time.....nothing.

again JG, I hear you. leupold is a fine scope if you zero it at the range and set it and forget it. I like elites or zeiss better in that case but thats just me in that situation. Most people aren't cranking on scopes but its becoming more popular these days. For a guy thats only shooting to around 500 yards they are just a well served by one of the many hold over reticles this covers just about everyones needs.

You're right. SWFA SS are cheaper scopes...They're also a heck of a lot more reliable, on average, when it comes to tracking fidelity and RTZ.