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Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Rob---I did re-read your posts and I don't want this debate to go south because I think you're a good guy but on this issue I KNOW you are completely wrong.

Your war on drugs has been a failure and you admit that it has been.


Originally Posted by RobJordan

In our county and (surrounding counties) there are massive social service structures in place who are quite busy taking custody of children who are horribly abused and neglected because their parents are meth heads. Our jails are quite well populated with men who beat their wives (and their kids) while high on meth. The case load for these service and police agencies is going to go way up in certain respects with legalization. How is that a solution? Just askin.


How could that be Rob? It's illegal and your "war on drugs" is the solution.

BTW---The jails are full and the court system is overwhelmed BECAUSE of the war on drugs. I don't think that legalizing all drugs will make those folks predisposed to drug use stop nor do I believe that non drug users will begin shooting heroin. What I do know is that those in jail for possession wouldn't be clogging the system for victim less crimes.


No, they're not. That's a myth. California has practically legalized possesion of hard drugs. Anyone caught gets diversion or treatment. Drugs aren't a major resource problem for law enforcement and the courts in my neck of the woods.


You my friend are full of contradictions.


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Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Rob---I did re-read your posts and I don't want this debate to go south because I think you're a good guy but on this issue I KNOW you are completely wrong.

Your war on drugs has been a failure and you admit that it has been.


Originally Posted by RobJordan

In our county and (surrounding counties) there are massive social service structures in place who are quite busy taking custody of children who are horribly abused and neglected because their parents are meth heads. Our jails are quite well populated with men who beat their wives (and their kids) while high on meth. The case load for these service and police agencies is going to go way up in certain respects with legalization. How is that a solution? Just askin.


How could that be Rob? It's illegal and your "war on drugs" is the solution.

BTW---The jails are full and the court system is overwhelmed BECAUSE of the war on drugs. I don't think that legalizing all drugs will make those folks predisposed to drug use stop nor do I believe that non drug users will begin shooting heroin. What I do know is that those in jail for possession wouldn't be clogging the system for victim less crimes.


No, they're not. That's a myth. California has practically legalized possesion of hard drugs. Anyone caught gets diversion or treatment. Drugs aren't a major resource problem for law enforcement and the courts in my neck of the woods.


You my friend are full of contradictions.


Well, in truth, we barely even punish drug use and the sales of illegal drugs in this country. So, I'm not sure how much of a war is being waged.


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Here's my solution. If we're going to legalize drugs, then here's the deal: if you're using drugs, no welfare, no food stamps and no free medical care. Those benefits are reserved for people who are in a condition to be able to hold a job (if one is available---i.e., people who aren't dope fiends). If you can use drugs and be a productive member of society, have at it. In other words, let the natural consequences of drug abuse work their magic (nature, expelled with a pitchfork, always returns). Why should I pay to rescue someone from his bad decisions and habits?

I was hoping one of you professed lovers of liberty would propose this, but you seem more concerned about needing a boogeyman to attack than proposing constructive solutions. wink

Last edited by RobJordan; 05/17/14.

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Originally Posted by RobJordan
Here's my solution. If we're going to legalize drugs, then here's the deal: if you're using drugs, no welfare, no food stamps and no free medical care. Those benefits are reserved for people who are in a condition to be able to hold a job (if one is available---i.e., people who aren't dope fiends). If you can use drugs and be a productive member of society, have at it. In other words, let the natural consequences of drug abuse work their magic (nature, expelled with a pitchfork, always returns). Why should I pay to rescue someone from his bad decisions and habits?

I was hoping one of you professed lovers of liberty would propose this, but you seem more concerned about needing a boogeyman to attack than proposing constructive solutions. wink


Rob--- I agree with you 100%.

PS...Liberty lovers don't need a "boogeyman to attack" when there are plenty of Republicans, neo-cons, rinos and other assorted mouth breathers yelling about the sky falling with additional freedoms. smile



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Originally Posted by RobJordan
Here's my solution. If we're going to legalize drugs, then here's the deal: if you're using drugs, no welfare, no food stamps and no free medical care. Those benefits are reserved for people who are in a condition to be able to hold a job (if one is available---i.e., people who aren't dope fiends). If you can use drugs and be a productive member of society, have at it. In other words, let the natural consequences of drug abuse work their magic (nature, expelled with a pitchfork, always returns). Why should I pay to rescue someone from his bad decisions and habits?

I was hoping one of you professed lovers of liberty would propose this, but you seem more concerned about needing a boogeyman to attack than proposing constructive solutions. wink
Sorry. Didn't mean to come across as attacking you. We agree on quite a lot, and I have little objection to what you said there, apart from my being opposed to all forms of government managed welfare programs, not just those for people on drugs.

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Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by stevelyn
...The only thing legalization will do is undermine the black-market profits...


...and reduce crime and furlough a bunch of LE.


Not just LEO but attorneys, counselors, jailers and other gov't tit sucking leaches. wink
Exactly.



So far, not Exactly working out so well in Colorado.


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Oh, and one more: if you're using dope (other than doctor prescribed pain meds), no social security disability check either. Also, you want to be a crank whore?, No [bleep] driver's license either.

Am I going to far. crazy

Last edited by RobJordan; 05/17/14.

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I can't understand why anybody would want to legalize hard drugs. Right now we have laws that make a standard in society, and generally make this country a decent place to live. Keeping drugs illegal keeps it out of sight, so decent folks like myself can raise a family without it right out in the open.

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Originally Posted by Calvin
I can't understand why anybody would want to legalize hard drugs. Right now we have laws that make a standard in society, and generally make this country a decent place to live. Keeping drugs illegal keeps it out of sight, so decent folks like myself can raise a family without it right out in the open.


Calvin makes a damn good point. What kind of environment are we creating for his (and our kids) when every third family is cooking meth on the kitchen stove and junior is coming to school with open sores on his face? Just askin'.


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LOLOL.


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Everything is out of sight when your eyes are closed. wink


�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.

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Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by Calvin
I can't understand why anybody would want to legalize hard drugs. Right now we have laws that make a standard in society, and generally make this country a decent place to live. Keeping drugs illegal keeps it out of sight, so decent folks like myself can raise a family without it right out in the open.


Calvin makes a damn good point. What kind of environment are we creating for his (and our kids) when every third family is cooking meth on the kitchen stove and junior is coming to school with open sores on his face? Just askin'.
Meth was developed because of the high price of other recreational drugs. The cost is less because you don't have to transport it through an interdiction gauntlet to get it to market, as it's made in the area where it will be marketed. Legalize drugs, and no one will be making meth. Too dangerous to manufacture, and there will be better, cheaper, options available.

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Quote
Look what happened when we legalized alcohol.
Really? I believe the more appropriate look-back is what occurred as a result of prohibition.

You can't save people from themselves, but neither can you prevent horrific and spiraling unintended consequences when the government extends itself in an attempt of doing exactly that.

As you are a part of the government, particularly in enforcement, I'd have to respectfully conclude you are too close to the problem, which is government, to recognize the solution, which is certainly neither the status quo or more laws.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

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Originally Posted by RickyD
Quote
Look what happened when we legalized alcohol.
Really? I believe the more appropriate look-back is what occurred as a result of prohibition.

You can't save people from themselves, but neither can you prevent horrific and spiraling unintended consequences when the government extends itself in an attempt of doing exactly that.

As you are a part of the government, particularly in enforcement, I'd have to respectfully conclude you are too close to the problem, which is government, to recognize the solution, which is certainly neither the status quo or more laws.
Well said.

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They need to re-run that segment nightly.

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Originally Posted by RickyD
Quote
Look what happened when we legalized alcohol.
Really? I believe the more appropriate look-back is what occurred as a result of prohibition.

You can't save people from themselves, but neither can you prevent horrific and spiraling unintended consequences when the government extends itself in an attempt of doing exactly that.

As you are a part of the government, particularly in enforcement, I'd have to respectfully conclude you are too close to the problem, which is government, to recognize the solution, which is certainly neither the status quo or more laws.


My biases are only relevant if you can first demonstrate where my analysis is wrong. I don't have a problem with de-criminalization per se, but here is what is going to happen: in addition to increased consumption, increased taxation to pay for treatment; increased welfare and other social costs to compensate for the increased negative externalities. Government won't get smaller: it will increase to deal with the increased negative externalities. I believe I am the one here who proposed that if we decriminalize, we must also cut-off all social and welfare benefits to users, otherwise, the tax payer is subsidizing their addiction (their use to the point where they are useless for employment and such). Problem is, that won't happen: decriminalization will be accompanied by taxes for treatment and interdiction, education and more welfare for the drug-addled dope heads who "can't work" because the dope made them "disabled".

Mark my words. That is exactly how it will play out.

Jordan


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