Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Trued Rem 700 vs Nesika, Defiance, BAT, Barnard?

Out of curiousity, how old are you?

We really have a bit of a conflicy between "real value" and "perceived value". The fact is that many custom makers tend to blow a bit of smoke when touting their product and the buyers accept them at their word. Add to this what features are considered to be important and you have even more room for discussion.
For myself, although small groups are gratifying, I don't care if my hunting rifle will shoot sub-1/2 minute. I do care that it will NEVER fail to feed (if a repeater), fire, extract, and eject and that the point of impact will not vary by more than one moa from day to day, warm or cold. When I line up on a 300 yard coyote, I don't get to waste a fouling shot and I expect to hit the coyote.
So, to ensure acceptable accuracy, I want the bolt face to be square, both lugs to contact, and the receiver face to be square. This is probably enough to produce a rifle with 1/2 moa potential (depending on caliber and configuration)if barrel and bedding are up to the task.
More important, for a hunting rifle, is proper location of the bolt handle so as to maximize primary extraction and to allow the bolt to be slammed shut without the trigger sear being the first thing to contact. This speaks to reliability which, after having climbed a couple thousand feet and eaten nothing but oatmeal and berries for a week, is considerably more important than a half inch group.
Funtion is important on the target range too. Having to get out of a good position to clear the rifle when a case fails to extract is likely to lose the match for me so that's important too.
Half the custom rifles which are talked up on the internet are, in reality, what might be described as "range queens". They are expected to be able to produce small groups, the number of shots to be determined as the group progresses, usually without witnesses. The occasional feeding glitch, while annoying, can be forgiven as long as the "bragability" quotient is high. If one has to be a little careful when closing the bolt, well, this is a thoroughbred we're talking about; right?
In the end, these discussions are interesting but no real conclusion is reached since evryone views the subject from a different vantage point. GD

If you're after faultless function in a premium hunting rifle, you may need a $15K Legend by D'Arcy Echols. His big thing is functional perfection and with a lot of precision, just not a bench rest gun slimmed down to hunting size. He uses a M-70. not a 700.

What about Borden and Pierce? They look good to me. Any experience with these and similar?

DF

Borden and Pierce are very good and top quality. Lester Bruno hasn't shot a World Record with a Remington action in at least 25YRs. if then.
As Greydog says, all of this stuff ain't necessary for hunting. If you are competing, all and I mean all Short range BR shooters use customs. I'm not talking about informal club shoots. I ask my hunting rifles to shot MOA with a cold clean barrel or a warm barrel. If they do that and if I missed a good shot on an animal, it wouldn't be the equipments fault.
My BR rifles need to be able to shoot better than 1/4" MOA to be in the top 25%. This is aggregate, not one group. If you are shooting with your Buds at the range, a good Savage is a good rifle.

I think pride in having fine equipment is a large part of it. And, knowing that a rig will, in a pinch, be up to a really LR shot if the need arises. I know that's mostly Loony talk, but who do we think we are, anyway...

Wouldn't be spending time on the Fire, otherwise...

To me, half the pleasure of a good hunt is having a fine rifle/scope rig, performing as intended.

DF

That conversation was probably more than 10 years ago and it was my impression at the time that the occurrence was a long time before that. At any rate, that is what he told me�

John

A really long shot? If you have a 1 moa rifle and your group is well centered, and you can judge the wind, and you are positive of the range, and the animal will hold still, you will hit within four inches of point of aim at 800 yards which most would consider a pretty long shot. Under field conditions, four inches is squat. Luck begins to play a significant part.
Hunting rifles of typical hunting configuration and in typical hunting chamberings, have limited accuracy potential; except on the internet, of course. So the primary reasons for owning the custom action become pride of ownership and /or a perception of exclusivity. Nothing wrong with that but long range performance is not the exclusive territory of the custom action.
As Butch mentioned, short range BR is the one venue where the use of a custom action verges on mandatory and it is rare that a serious competitor chooses to go any other way. "F" Class competition is beginning to get this way too. Hunting rifles? Not so much. GD

.25 moa guarantee is pretty steep one. IMO it takes the whole package to get there. a rifle that is setup right and beyond that you need to be a knowledgable reloader. I think you need bushing dies and neck turned brass to get there as well. Now some will chime in and say I have shot .25 with factory ammo in a factory rifle. yeah I have too, but to pull the gun out of the safe and say lets shoot a group right now and to expect that is crazy.

with an accuracy build I bring everything I can to the table nothing is left to chance. All I want is about half MOA because that all the accuracy anyone can use in the field. perfectly bedded stocks, BAT machine action, krieger barrel, necked turned brass loaded with wilson dies.

You're right about having to have the whole picture for max precision. You see, I said "precision", didn't say accuracy...

These guys build some tight shooting hunting rifles, and even with them, some shoot tighter groups than others.

DF

http://www.quarterminutemagnums.com/

I've always been pretty happy with a Remmy until I had a rifle built with a Borden, it sure is nice. For a light weight hunting rifle build the Borden is a first rate action. I could be happy with another.

Did you use the action with Borden's Bumps or not?

DF

I believe the only action that Jim makes with the "bumps" is the Rimrock actions, but I could be wrong. I've spoken with Jim many times at the Harrisburg Show, and the reason he decided to make the Alpine/Timberline actions is that he realized an action as tight as the Rimrock, might not be best suited for hunting applications where dirt, dust and grime would hinder the function of the action for hunting applications. In a nutshell, the Alpine/Timberline is tighter than a 700, but still "loose" enough to permit function for hunting applications.

No bumps - I went with the Alpine which is supposed to be a better choice for a hunting rig, at least according to the guy that screwed it together. So I took his advice:)

I have a pre-64 M-70 with Bordens Bumps wearing a 26" Krieger in 6.5-284. Now, the M-70 didn't start out as a tight, custom action. But that thing sure does shoot.

My smith cut recesses in the M-70 bolt, milled scrap SS barrel tips to fit the recesses. He JB welded these pieces in place, then used his mill to cut the slightly oblong Borden's Bumps. The wide part travels down the action raceways and when the bolt is closed, there is very tight clearence up and down, front and back action rings. The action has been blueprinted. I'd never seen that done to a pre-64.

DF



Finished product.

Really nice.

I like that one...

DF

m77,

yes and yes.

but its up to you to fine the right gunsmith,choose carefully grasshopper. regards an good luck,jeff pie

Might it have been less expensive to start with a Dakota 76 and have a tight action from the start and have one of those old military style triggers to boot ? A Brown Precision 702 or 704 would have been a great platform to start with a tight action too.

Yes. If properly blue printed.

greg tannel does that with his action true jobs. I have a remington custom he worked over that has slight cams. They recut the action slightly oversize then the cams take up the tolerances when they close. however I wouldn't spend that much money on a remington thats why I got a bat.

Well, I bought the donor pre-64 as a .243, barrel and stock cut down. Paid $400. The work wasn't that expensive to put it in the Dakota 76 range.

I have a .300WM Ed Brown Damara with the 704 action. It came with a Jewell trigger and I put a Jewell in the pre-64.

I traded for the Damara and have more in it than the pre-64. In fact, I traded a used Dakota 76 in .270 for the Damara.

The Damara comes with a Shilen barrel and will shoot almost as good as the Pre-64/Krieger, but it's a much lighter gun.

DF



Damara, top gun.